Had the talk
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Had the talk
Started a new thread because it feels like a different kettle of fish. (See trackback link if you want backstory.)
After realizing I was agonizing wayyy too much about the right time to talk to my friend, I just bit the bullet, called him up and had "the talk" -saying more or less that I love him, I care about him, I believe in him and that I need to get out of his way and let him do his healing. I told him that I don't want to disappear on him but don't want to add to his tornado of interpersonal troubles, that I'm not invincible to hurt feelings and some of the stuff that's gone on recently did indeed hurt, and that I want to be a friend, not a resource but that friendship is probably too much for him right now and that I want to give him all the space in the world to heal and have the happy life that he really, really deserves. And that I hope we can be friends again one day.
Not looking for critical feedback or lectures about sticking to boundaries or advice or predictions right now. Just wanted to share because I feel really really really sad in this moment. Actually just started crying as I type.
I have IRL people to share with and I'll lean on them too but since there are so many different interpersonal dynamics (small town, not big city, everybody knows everybody therefore everyone has a relationship with everybody and everybody has their own stuff and opinions and everything that they're bringing to the table when we talk about it, and I'm still loyal to my dear friend so I don't really feel comfortable sharing all the details IRL. I know anyone can find this thread on the internet... but it's probably a little less likely unless you're looking for it...)
Sometimes we as a society feel more comfortable with anger, irritation, all that... sadness is a hard one for us, so I guess I also am hoping that by sharing openly that I'm really really sad right now someone else might not feel alone if they are feeling the same way after doing what they know needs to be done. Feeling sad isn't feeling sorry for yourself- something people are often cautioned against. It's sad and I feel sad right now and I know that's OK.
Now I'm just gonna go listen to a Fray song on repeat and do the dishes and give myself a little more time to feel sad before I stop feeling sad and be awesome instead. (HIMYM reference anyone?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjVQ36NhbMk
Where did I go wrong? I lost a friend
Somewhere along in the bitterness
And I would have stayed up with you all night
Had I known how to save a life
:'(
After realizing I was agonizing wayyy too much about the right time to talk to my friend, I just bit the bullet, called him up and had "the talk" -saying more or less that I love him, I care about him, I believe in him and that I need to get out of his way and let him do his healing. I told him that I don't want to disappear on him but don't want to add to his tornado of interpersonal troubles, that I'm not invincible to hurt feelings and some of the stuff that's gone on recently did indeed hurt, and that I want to be a friend, not a resource but that friendship is probably too much for him right now and that I want to give him all the space in the world to heal and have the happy life that he really, really deserves. And that I hope we can be friends again one day.
Not looking for critical feedback or lectures about sticking to boundaries or advice or predictions right now. Just wanted to share because I feel really really really sad in this moment. Actually just started crying as I type.
I have IRL people to share with and I'll lean on them too but since there are so many different interpersonal dynamics (small town, not big city, everybody knows everybody therefore everyone has a relationship with everybody and everybody has their own stuff and opinions and everything that they're bringing to the table when we talk about it, and I'm still loyal to my dear friend so I don't really feel comfortable sharing all the details IRL. I know anyone can find this thread on the internet... but it's probably a little less likely unless you're looking for it...)
Sometimes we as a society feel more comfortable with anger, irritation, all that... sadness is a hard one for us, so I guess I also am hoping that by sharing openly that I'm really really sad right now someone else might not feel alone if they are feeling the same way after doing what they know needs to be done. Feeling sad isn't feeling sorry for yourself- something people are often cautioned against. It's sad and I feel sad right now and I know that's OK.
Now I'm just gonna go listen to a Fray song on repeat and do the dishes and give myself a little more time to feel sad before I stop feeling sad and be awesome instead. (HIMYM reference anyone?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjVQ36NhbMk
Where did I go wrong? I lost a friend
Somewhere along in the bitterness
And I would have stayed up with you all night
Had I known how to save a life
:'(
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Saltlamp….of course, you are sad....and, I think that is totally normal and very human.....
After all, we all mourn the loss that we feel when we have invested a part of ourselves....If it had any important significance, to us...we grieve--we cry--and, we are sad.....
I have been through this so many times, myself...but, I can't list them, due to lack of space...
I will say, though, that if feels so bad, in the beginning...like, overwhelmingly bad.....but, over time, we do heal.....
After all, we all mourn the loss that we feel when we have invested a part of ourselves....If it had any important significance, to us...we grieve--we cry--and, we are sad.....
I have been through this so many times, myself...but, I can't list them, due to lack of space...
I will say, though, that if feels so bad, in the beginning...like, overwhelmingly bad.....but, over time, we do heal.....
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I'm sorry saltlamp, that is had to come to this.
Maybe it will help to know that because you bowed out of the relationship for the time being there is still some chance of a friendship sometime in the future when he will, hopefully, seek recovery again.
Maybe it will help to know that because you bowed out of the relationship for the time being there is still some chance of a friendship sometime in the future when he will, hopefully, seek recovery again.
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Lost a lot of sleep last night, wondering if I did the right thing, second guessing myself, etc. etc. etc.
He has been sober for five days and has everything lined up to get back into rehab (he can't go to the same one until he completes a different one for a month first- the one he was in was a dual diagnosis program and I guess their policy is if you've been asked to leave you have to go complete a month at their affiliate straight-up treatment program but that's his plan) so I hope that this doesn't trigger him to go into another active-relapse or whatever you'd call it... but I know that if it does, it's not my fault. I know I was not unkind in my explanation. Three Cs, all that.
I realized how unfair it was that he was saying or doing things that hurt my feelings and I was just swallowing it because I didn't want to trigger him. So I explained what he had done that hurt my feelings recently (in the last week, not going back over the last seven months or anything!) and in retrospect I realized that he didn't apologize or anything... he just "explained" that his brain wouldn't function correctly after only 24 hours sober (the timing of the first of three things I decided to mention)...
I gently but firmly told him that I understood what he was saying on an intellectual level, and that I was proud of him for those 24 hours, and that I get that withdrawl is hard, but also that he didn't have to go on a bender in the first place, and that I thought it was a roundabout way of using his drinking to excuse bad behaviour, and that if I did that, I'd be enabling him and that wasn't kind or helpful to him.
(I know some of you are going to think that's too many words to spend in conversation with an addict who won't understand, but it felt important to ME to say everything.)
He also tried to explain away an disrespectful name he called me, trying to convince me it was done from a lighthearted way and was *actually* a sign of respect... I didn't argue his point but I was firm in myself- I know what I know, that it was deliberately provocative. (I didn't take the bait then, either, just "let it slide" in the moment, but it was important to me to bring it up as a "short list of things that have really hurt me this week.")
But I guess the second guessing comes in because what this is really all about is that I'm sad that he relapsed IN rehab. That's the big thing. Perhaps that's too codependent. Perhaps that's a sign of me being way too naive. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps... but wherever it came from ultimately my difficulty in supporting him over the last little while is because he relapsed IN rehab. And talking about it since (not just the day of, where I think I'd be a bit more understanding), the attitude is just "they shouldn't have kicked me out, poor me, they were wrong to kick me out even though the policy is super clear, and all of my drinking for a week AFTERWARD is all their fault, how terrible could they be?" (He had the option to transfer to the other program more or less immediately- well, to stay the night and then transfer to the other program the day after with only 24 hours in between but chose not to take that option so it's really not even a case of the caregivers throwing him out at a vulnerable time...)
And I just can't move past that.
So even though I felt really guilty when he said "but you are supportive, not in my way. When I was in rehab and we did daypass planning every weekend, you were at the top of my list of people I could call if I had urges to use and I was always identifying you as my biggest supporter and blah blah blah" but then I'm like "yeah... but you didn't call me so right now I'm just a name on a list."
I still feel guilty kind of but I'm just spitting out all of this because I know that guilt probably isn't the healthy way to feel right now and just describing all my logical reasons into the internet void helps.
But still.
Still a lot sad. A *lot* (though after my dishes and listening to sad songs on repeat, I put on "La Vie Bohemme" from the Rent soundtrack- the movie version- and it's literally impossible to feel sad while singing along to a campy musical number.)
And still worried. I always worry when he goes AWOL so now I've basically invited that. I know that's my stuff and blah blah blah. It's a feeling.
And partly worried that he'll fall off the rails but also partly- worried isn't the right word, but something like it- that this actually IS the time he'll go get sober for good and I've just made his circle of support smaller and his recovery more difficult. But he knows I definitely care about him SO much and want him to be healthy so maybe it will actually help him expand his circle of support and when/if he's really really ready he'll know the difference within him and know he can reach out for real support. Not "say insulting things and SaltLamp won't be mad because SaltLamp is so kind and understanding *cough* enabling *cough cough*" but "right, SaltLamp was hurt by my bad behaviour but still cares about me."
Not like holding out for that or anything but a possiblility.
OK not even going to proofread. Just gonna hit submit and let my ramblyness exist in the void. I feel better in this moment.
Thanks internet strangers <3
He has been sober for five days and has everything lined up to get back into rehab (he can't go to the same one until he completes a different one for a month first- the one he was in was a dual diagnosis program and I guess their policy is if you've been asked to leave you have to go complete a month at their affiliate straight-up treatment program but that's his plan) so I hope that this doesn't trigger him to go into another active-relapse or whatever you'd call it... but I know that if it does, it's not my fault. I know I was not unkind in my explanation. Three Cs, all that.
I realized how unfair it was that he was saying or doing things that hurt my feelings and I was just swallowing it because I didn't want to trigger him. So I explained what he had done that hurt my feelings recently (in the last week, not going back over the last seven months or anything!) and in retrospect I realized that he didn't apologize or anything... he just "explained" that his brain wouldn't function correctly after only 24 hours sober (the timing of the first of three things I decided to mention)...
I gently but firmly told him that I understood what he was saying on an intellectual level, and that I was proud of him for those 24 hours, and that I get that withdrawl is hard, but also that he didn't have to go on a bender in the first place, and that I thought it was a roundabout way of using his drinking to excuse bad behaviour, and that if I did that, I'd be enabling him and that wasn't kind or helpful to him.
(I know some of you are going to think that's too many words to spend in conversation with an addict who won't understand, but it felt important to ME to say everything.)
He also tried to explain away an disrespectful name he called me, trying to convince me it was done from a lighthearted way and was *actually* a sign of respect... I didn't argue his point but I was firm in myself- I know what I know, that it was deliberately provocative. (I didn't take the bait then, either, just "let it slide" in the moment, but it was important to me to bring it up as a "short list of things that have really hurt me this week.")
But I guess the second guessing comes in because what this is really all about is that I'm sad that he relapsed IN rehab. That's the big thing. Perhaps that's too codependent. Perhaps that's a sign of me being way too naive. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps... but wherever it came from ultimately my difficulty in supporting him over the last little while is because he relapsed IN rehab. And talking about it since (not just the day of, where I think I'd be a bit more understanding), the attitude is just "they shouldn't have kicked me out, poor me, they were wrong to kick me out even though the policy is super clear, and all of my drinking for a week AFTERWARD is all their fault, how terrible could they be?" (He had the option to transfer to the other program more or less immediately- well, to stay the night and then transfer to the other program the day after with only 24 hours in between but chose not to take that option so it's really not even a case of the caregivers throwing him out at a vulnerable time...)
And I just can't move past that.
So even though I felt really guilty when he said "but you are supportive, not in my way. When I was in rehab and we did daypass planning every weekend, you were at the top of my list of people I could call if I had urges to use and I was always identifying you as my biggest supporter and blah blah blah" but then I'm like "yeah... but you didn't call me so right now I'm just a name on a list."
I still feel guilty kind of but I'm just spitting out all of this because I know that guilt probably isn't the healthy way to feel right now and just describing all my logical reasons into the internet void helps.
But still.
Still a lot sad. A *lot* (though after my dishes and listening to sad songs on repeat, I put on "La Vie Bohemme" from the Rent soundtrack- the movie version- and it's literally impossible to feel sad while singing along to a campy musical number.)
And still worried. I always worry when he goes AWOL so now I've basically invited that. I know that's my stuff and blah blah blah. It's a feeling.
And partly worried that he'll fall off the rails but also partly- worried isn't the right word, but something like it- that this actually IS the time he'll go get sober for good and I've just made his circle of support smaller and his recovery more difficult. But he knows I definitely care about him SO much and want him to be healthy so maybe it will actually help him expand his circle of support and when/if he's really really ready he'll know the difference within him and know he can reach out for real support. Not "say insulting things and SaltLamp won't be mad because SaltLamp is so kind and understanding *cough* enabling *cough cough*" but "right, SaltLamp was hurt by my bad behaviour but still cares about me."
Not like holding out for that or anything but a possiblility.
OK not even going to proofread. Just gonna hit submit and let my ramblyness exist in the void. I feel better in this moment.
Thanks internet strangers <3
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Of course I decided to proofread after I posted... but just to clarify the second guessing thing... I'm like "am I just lashing out because I'm mad at the addict for being an addict and relapsing? What's wrong with me that his relapse hurt me so much- what kind of crazy enmeshment was there? How is it fair to withdraw my support because of this when it wasn't a clear boundary before? Especially that he's trying again?"
I guess I don't trust him or have faith in him that this time if he goes through rehab it will be different and so it just feels like I *can't* do it anymore. And I think I'm kind of an all-or-nothing personality, whether that's a good or bad thing is up for debate.
I can support you all the way or I just can't be part of it. I can't be an impassionate spectator. And I can't say "I believe in you" over and over if I don't. And I know that if he goes through rehab again every weekend pass is gonna be me being like "i wonder if you're drunk" and that's not healthy for me OR for him (how it would feel for your "support" to be suspicious of you)... but all of those limitations feel like faults.
But I guess better to know my limitations than to unintentionally sabotage his recovery next time around with doubt and mistrust and disbelief.
Sorry, I'm rambling.
I don't know what else to do than to ramble right now.
Or do healthy things like smell this beautiful bouquet of flowers I was sent last night (I swear I was a bumblebee in my last life and flowers make me stupidly happy) and take a shower or eat something healthy rather than just M&Ms...
I'll get there. I'm just feeling low right now. Sorry if I'm dragging anyone down on their journey with my crappy attitude. I'll start a new thread when I'm not being miserable- just stop reading this one. :P
I guess I don't trust him or have faith in him that this time if he goes through rehab it will be different and so it just feels like I *can't* do it anymore. And I think I'm kind of an all-or-nothing personality, whether that's a good or bad thing is up for debate.
I can support you all the way or I just can't be part of it. I can't be an impassionate spectator. And I can't say "I believe in you" over and over if I don't. And I know that if he goes through rehab again every weekend pass is gonna be me being like "i wonder if you're drunk" and that's not healthy for me OR for him (how it would feel for your "support" to be suspicious of you)... but all of those limitations feel like faults.
But I guess better to know my limitations than to unintentionally sabotage his recovery next time around with doubt and mistrust and disbelief.
Sorry, I'm rambling.
I don't know what else to do than to ramble right now.
Or do healthy things like smell this beautiful bouquet of flowers I was sent last night (I swear I was a bumblebee in my last life and flowers make me stupidly happy) and take a shower or eat something healthy rather than just M&Ms...
I'll get there. I'm just feeling low right now. Sorry if I'm dragging anyone down on their journey with my crappy attitude. I'll start a new thread when I'm not being miserable- just stop reading this one. :P
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He's an adult, right?
You aren't a parent or family member, correct?
His addiction is costing you a huge mental and emotional energy toll, yes?
I think stepping back and letting him stand or choose not to stand on his own is the very best thing you can do to help him, and more importantly, help yourself in this situation. Really.
Nobody has a right to call you names and hurt you for any reason--least of all addiction.
Stand strong and trust your heart--it knows what your head doesn't
You aren't a parent or family member, correct?
His addiction is costing you a huge mental and emotional energy toll, yes?
I think stepping back and letting him stand or choose not to stand on his own is the very best thing you can do to help him, and more importantly, help yourself in this situation. Really.
Nobody has a right to call you names and hurt you for any reason--least of all addiction.
Stand strong and trust your heart--it knows what your head doesn't
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I think all your feelings are perfectly normal (not that you need me to say that, just that I get it).
The whole - my mind isn't working after 24 hours without alcohol thing is true, for sure, that does not excuse the behaviour. I'm going through withdrawal so I'll be an ass to all I encounter (even one of my best friends who is there through thick and thin).
While it might be true, who does that not help? You. Your feelings still get hurt, you still feel sad and insulted. That wears on you. You can explain it away as he does - again, doesn't help you.
It can be hard to start looking at ourselves and saying, what do I need here. How am I being hurt and how do I stop that.
You did that. There is absolutely no reason for you to feel guilty. Just as you cannot help him get sober, he cannot help you feel better about being abusive toward you.
You are protecting yourself, which you must do, of course.
The whole - my mind isn't working after 24 hours without alcohol thing is true, for sure, that does not excuse the behaviour. I'm going through withdrawal so I'll be an ass to all I encounter (even one of my best friends who is there through thick and thin).
While it might be true, who does that not help? You. Your feelings still get hurt, you still feel sad and insulted. That wears on you. You can explain it away as he does - again, doesn't help you.
It can be hard to start looking at ourselves and saying, what do I need here. How am I being hurt and how do I stop that.
You did that. There is absolutely no reason for you to feel guilty. Just as you cannot help him get sober, he cannot help you feel better about being abusive toward you.
You are protecting yourself, which you must do, of course.
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Thanks for your post, Hawkeye. I really appreciate your words.
As part of our shared spiritual faith I think of this friend like family- like a brother- so deeply that it is pretty much almost literal in my lived experience. I know that's something that I've caught a little bit of flack for in this forum (I was, if I interpreted it correctly, accused of my faith being an excuse rather than a complicating factor by one poster) but that's part of my reality.
So, not a parent, but in my worldview, pretty much family.
It's OK if that doesn't "make sense" to everyone who is reading this- I don't want to push my faith beliefs on anyone- but my own experience is kind of like that of "family" more than just, like, for example, a buddy on the same sports team.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye13 
You aren't a parent or family member, correct?
So, not a parent, but in my worldview, pretty much family.
It's OK if that doesn't "make sense" to everyone who is reading this- I don't want to push my faith beliefs on anyone- but my own experience is kind of like that of "family" more than just, like, for example, a buddy on the same sports team.
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Thanks TrailMix.
I forgive him being an ass going through withdrawal but when the attitude isn't "right, I was an ass, sorry" but "I had no choice, I was going through withdrawal- you just don't understand" it's saying to me that it's just going to happen again.
We are all mean ol' meanies from time to time and we are all worthy of forgiveness. Forgiving someone else isn't conditional on them saying "sorry" nor does just the word excuse anything...
But I guess if someone throws a big rock at you and says "oh, I'm sorry, I saw you there but I was so mad I didn't even pay attention. I'm really sorry, I'm going to work on being more mindful of where I throw my rocks" I'm not gonna be quite as terrified the next time I see the person with a rock. THe person who says "I saw you there but I was so mad, you should have moved out of my way..." well, I'd be dumb to not move out of that person's way.
Stupid analogy. Just working through things as I type.
I forgive him being an ass going through withdrawal but when the attitude isn't "right, I was an ass, sorry" but "I had no choice, I was going through withdrawal- you just don't understand" it's saying to me that it's just going to happen again.
We are all mean ol' meanies from time to time and we are all worthy of forgiveness. Forgiving someone else isn't conditional on them saying "sorry" nor does just the word excuse anything...
But I guess if someone throws a big rock at you and says "oh, I'm sorry, I saw you there but I was so mad I didn't even pay attention. I'm really sorry, I'm going to work on being more mindful of where I throw my rocks" I'm not gonna be quite as terrified the next time I see the person with a rock. THe person who says "I saw you there but I was so mad, you should have moved out of my way..." well, I'd be dumb to not move out of that person's way.
Stupid analogy. Just working through things as I type.
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Not stupid at all, pretty darn accurate.
He's in denial and when that breaks, as it should with recovery, he probably will be sorry. I hope he gets to that point and beyond.
Yes, I get the forgiveness part, again, glad you got out of it before forgiveness seems like a huge up-hill battle (or one that can't be done). The benefit is truly two-fold. You are protecting yourself but you are also protecting the relationship you may have going forward if he is in recovery, you did both of you a favour.
He's in denial and when that breaks, as it should with recovery, he probably will be sorry. I hope he gets to that point and beyond.
Yes, I get the forgiveness part, again, glad you got out of it before forgiveness seems like a huge up-hill battle (or one that can't be done). The benefit is truly two-fold. You are protecting yourself but you are also protecting the relationship you may have going forward if he is in recovery, you did both of you a favour.
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Gahhhhh- those weird non apology convoluted apologies that just make everything worse, I hate those too. But yeah, I have found that to be the case too, you speak your truth, or let a person know what’s bothering you, and then move out of the way if they aren’t well and still “throwing rocks at you”.
I personally find that at the end of the day, it’s my own behavior that I end up reflecting back on anyways (“such & such a thing happened, and maybe nothing changed, but at least I behaved congruently with who I am/ my values; said what I needed to say, etc”..)
I personally find that at the end of the day, it’s my own behavior that I end up reflecting back on anyways (“such & such a thing happened, and maybe nothing changed, but at least I behaved congruently with who I am/ my values; said what I needed to say, etc”..)
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Originally Posted by Saltlamp
I always worry when he goes AWOL...
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Saltlamp…...softly, I say, that....collectively, those of us who read your posts and care about how your feel, are not just a "void".....we are real...we are a group of peple who care and share with you...we "hear" you and you matter, to us. That is far, far away from being a "void"....we are a slice of humanity....
And, we are not internet "strangers"...we are internet friends....
Just saying...….
And, we are not internet "strangers"...we are internet friends....
Just saying...….
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Aww, thanks Dandylion. That's really kind <3. (I apologize in in my comments I made anyone feel less human. Not my intention. It is quite a bit different on online message boards than with real life friends, but you're totally right- a slice of humanity. So, sorry if I was a jerkface by saying that.)
Thanks also Dandylion, PDM and Angelina for sharing that you've felt my experience. That is something I just find really helpful, knowing there's someone else who knows the feeling. Situations are always different but feelings can be pretty common IMO.
And TrailMix, thanks as always for your wisdom, presence and compassion. You're a pretty incredible person hanging out on message boards and just consistently offering up your strength, wisdom, knowledge and hope. <3
I'm feeling a lot less sad today. I've kind of turned into my anger thinking about about every crappy thing AF (I see ABF, AH, XAH, etc all the time... so AF=Alcoholic Friend?) has done in the last year.
On another thread someone added a fourth "C" - didn't cause, can't control, can't cure... and can't comprehend. But I'm finding myself looking for a comprehension...
Do you think it's possible for an alcoholic to be addicted to the rehab part? Or is that straight up part of manipulation? That's been SUCH a part of this journey that is somewhat different from a lot of people's stories... because always, inevitably, after X amount of drunk weeks, he's "getting help" but it always falls apart. Five days inpatient detox followed by outpatient treatment followed by relapse... resisting one rehab to try to get into another for reasons that sounded pretty sane but in retrospect weren't... asking for a ride to the hospital to detox after independently going to the clinic and getting this recommendation but sneaking alcohol in his bag (getting found out and kicked out)... TWICE...
And then just recently, yeah, 80 days sober and then self-sabotage. But then a week long bender and back to it, doing all the paperwork and clinic appointments and etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...
And I just get the sense that without his addiction and all the drama that getting treatment creates meaning for him- like lets him live in his identity as addict more than finding life beyond addiction. And in so many ways "getting treatment" prevents him from hitting rock bottom... like, for example, despite the fact he's actually worked four months of the last four years, because he's "in treatment" he still gets to hold on to his job title and gets his full paycheque... and then of course there's been people like me who have said and MEANT that we're not gonna be there if he's drunk but we'll always be there to help him when he's ready to crawl out of the hole... and he seems to LIKE being in rehab, honestly...
I'm not qualified to diagnose addiction of course but does it make sense that the getting treatment/relapsing cycle is just part of his addiction? Or is that just me trying to "justify" away my guilty feelings?
Cuz I totally have guilty feelings. I promised to always be there if he needs support in getting help, and I meant it... and I think I still mean it... but like PDM said, we want to make sure we're living in harmony with our own values so I'm still in this second guessing thing- my VALUE is to be there and to be patient and understanding if someone is trying to get help and being compassionate and understanding that it's hard and knowledgable that relapse happens sometimes and that doesn't necessarily mean failure...
But I also know that enabling addiction is the equivalent of blocking an addict from getting treatment so it's not kind at all.
Anyone else gone through that kind of cycle? I know a lot of people have the horrible experience of their loved one just not admitting they have a problem... not diminishing those awful experiences at all... but anyone else been through this kind of cycle? AF "admits" he has a problem... acts like he wants help... but then it always comes back to not actually overcoming the problem.
Or am I just putting way too much energy into trying to comprehend right now and need to let it go?
Ahhhcckk I'm feeling so lost right now!!!!!!!!
*submits without proofreading again. Not into the void. Into the hands of a caring slice of humanity. <3*
Thanks also Dandylion, PDM and Angelina for sharing that you've felt my experience. That is something I just find really helpful, knowing there's someone else who knows the feeling. Situations are always different but feelings can be pretty common IMO.
And TrailMix, thanks as always for your wisdom, presence and compassion. You're a pretty incredible person hanging out on message boards and just consistently offering up your strength, wisdom, knowledge and hope. <3
I'm feeling a lot less sad today. I've kind of turned into my anger thinking about about every crappy thing AF (I see ABF, AH, XAH, etc all the time... so AF=Alcoholic Friend?) has done in the last year.
On another thread someone added a fourth "C" - didn't cause, can't control, can't cure... and can't comprehend. But I'm finding myself looking for a comprehension...
Do you think it's possible for an alcoholic to be addicted to the rehab part? Or is that straight up part of manipulation? That's been SUCH a part of this journey that is somewhat different from a lot of people's stories... because always, inevitably, after X amount of drunk weeks, he's "getting help" but it always falls apart. Five days inpatient detox followed by outpatient treatment followed by relapse... resisting one rehab to try to get into another for reasons that sounded pretty sane but in retrospect weren't... asking for a ride to the hospital to detox after independently going to the clinic and getting this recommendation but sneaking alcohol in his bag (getting found out and kicked out)... TWICE...
And then just recently, yeah, 80 days sober and then self-sabotage. But then a week long bender and back to it, doing all the paperwork and clinic appointments and etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...
And I just get the sense that without his addiction and all the drama that getting treatment creates meaning for him- like lets him live in his identity as addict more than finding life beyond addiction. And in so many ways "getting treatment" prevents him from hitting rock bottom... like, for example, despite the fact he's actually worked four months of the last four years, because he's "in treatment" he still gets to hold on to his job title and gets his full paycheque... and then of course there's been people like me who have said and MEANT that we're not gonna be there if he's drunk but we'll always be there to help him when he's ready to crawl out of the hole... and he seems to LIKE being in rehab, honestly...
I'm not qualified to diagnose addiction of course but does it make sense that the getting treatment/relapsing cycle is just part of his addiction? Or is that just me trying to "justify" away my guilty feelings?
Cuz I totally have guilty feelings. I promised to always be there if he needs support in getting help, and I meant it... and I think I still mean it... but like PDM said, we want to make sure we're living in harmony with our own values so I'm still in this second guessing thing- my VALUE is to be there and to be patient and understanding if someone is trying to get help and being compassionate and understanding that it's hard and knowledgable that relapse happens sometimes and that doesn't necessarily mean failure...
But I also know that enabling addiction is the equivalent of blocking an addict from getting treatment so it's not kind at all.
Anyone else gone through that kind of cycle? I know a lot of people have the horrible experience of their loved one just not admitting they have a problem... not diminishing those awful experiences at all... but anyone else been through this kind of cycle? AF "admits" he has a problem... acts like he wants help... but then it always comes back to not actually overcoming the problem.
Or am I just putting way too much energy into trying to comprehend right now and need to let it go?
Ahhhcckk I'm feeling so lost right now!!!!!!!!
*submits without proofreading again. Not into the void. Into the hands of a caring slice of humanity. <3*
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It’s hard to say with your friend, if he’s stuck in a pattern, or getting something out of the attention, or maybe he admits he has a problem and wants to change, but what it takes to actually change and follow through is going against the grain too much? Change is hard, I don’t know what kind of constitution he has, or what the deal is with him. Hopefully he’ll find his inner strength if sobriety is what he wants, and will get the support he needs. But I know for me, sometimes it helpful to look at the overall pattern of a person- who they’ve shown themselves to be.
I’m not sure about “bottom”, I know sometimes people just get so sick of themselves, and are willing to put the work in to make changes whether people are around “enabling” or not, and whether it seems like “bottom” or not. I think when you pull back and think about your own feelings and boundaries, that’s for you, that doesn’t necessarily make the person snap into getting help or not. Sometimes people find recovery and sometimes they don’t, and what we’re doing or not doing doesn’t necessarily make things play out as we’d like. It’s frustrating for sure, because you just don’t know. However, I must say, I like my own anger too, I’m usually super grateful for it, especially if I start getting too sympathetic towards someone who probably doesn’t really deserve it; it helps put a fire under my butt to not put up with bs. :/
I’m not sure about “bottom”, I know sometimes people just get so sick of themselves, and are willing to put the work in to make changes whether people are around “enabling” or not, and whether it seems like “bottom” or not. I think when you pull back and think about your own feelings and boundaries, that’s for you, that doesn’t necessarily make the person snap into getting help or not. Sometimes people find recovery and sometimes they don’t, and what we’re doing or not doing doesn’t necessarily make things play out as we’d like. It’s frustrating for sure, because you just don’t know. However, I must say, I like my own anger too, I’m usually super grateful for it, especially if I start getting too sympathetic towards someone who probably doesn’t really deserve it; it helps put a fire under my butt to not put up with bs. :/
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Originally Posted by pdm22
But I know for me, sometimes it helpful to look at the overall pattern of a person- who they’ve shown themselves to be.
The reality for me is that I no longer trust my friend's attempts at getting help. Regardless of HIS motivations, *I* don't trust his attempts anymore.
I think what I need to do is find an answer within myself to the question "OK, what attempts at help will I "believe"?" I'll think on it more but right now I'm thinking (A) completed rehab - not got kicked out (B) back to living independently, not with mom (who Enables with a capital E: honestly, I think the idea of him being well is terrifying to her. But that's not for me to judge) (C) Active in AA again. (I don't think AA is for EVERYBODY but it seemed to be working pretty well for him when he was sober for the long period of time.
So if those things happen and if he wants my friendship and support at that time then I can give it to him with an open heart. Until then I can cheer him on from a distance because I'd just be too suspicious. Not good for him. Not good for me.
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It's hard to say what goes on in someone's head or what their thinking is.
It's really hard to say what the logic of an alcoholic is because they are not thinking clearly. Even when sober, if they haven't reached some kind of recovery (ie: different outlook) then they are just sober-for-now alcoholics and the addiction is still running most of the show.
What other options does he realistically have besides going to rehab regularly? He can't be seen to be doing nothing and he might in fact actually wish he could quit but isn't ready to put in the work and resolve that takes. Or he simply does not want to quit drinking.
This is all outward focus. While it's admirable to have that, your first priority should be yourself. If it isn't, who is looking out for you? Certainly not him.
You've probably read the saying around here - let go or be dragged, that's pretty much it. Alcoholics need professional help, or at the very least help from those who know how they feel and think about alcohol (AA). Looking out for a friend is fantastic, but in this case, you are being affected emotionally, mentally, that's dangerous territory. We (mostly) all have capacity to help our neighbour. That capacity is not unlimited and I think it's always wise to be careful. This is your mental well-being you are talking about.
I agree these are not "failures". That said, they also aren't "relapses" - he's in active alcoholism. Calling it a relapse makes it sound like progress is being made and he slipped up for a day but got right back on the wagon - not the case here.
And thank you for the kind words, glad you are here.
It's really hard to say what the logic of an alcoholic is because they are not thinking clearly. Even when sober, if they haven't reached some kind of recovery (ie: different outlook) then they are just sober-for-now alcoholics and the addiction is still running most of the show.
What other options does he realistically have besides going to rehab regularly? He can't be seen to be doing nothing and he might in fact actually wish he could quit but isn't ready to put in the work and resolve that takes. Or he simply does not want to quit drinking.
my VALUE is to be there and to be patient and understanding if someone is trying to get help and being compassionate and understanding that it's hard and knowledgable that relapse happens sometimes and that doesn't necessarily mean failure...
You've probably read the saying around here - let go or be dragged, that's pretty much it. Alcoholics need professional help, or at the very least help from those who know how they feel and think about alcohol (AA). Looking out for a friend is fantastic, but in this case, you are being affected emotionally, mentally, that's dangerous territory. We (mostly) all have capacity to help our neighbour. That capacity is not unlimited and I think it's always wise to be careful. This is your mental well-being you are talking about.
I agree these are not "failures". That said, they also aren't "relapses" - he's in active alcoholism. Calling it a relapse makes it sound like progress is being made and he slipped up for a day but got right back on the wagon - not the case here.
And thank you for the kind words, glad you are here.
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Originally Posted by trailmix
he might in fact actually wish he could quit but isn't ready to put in the work and resolve that takes.
I'm feeling slightly less guilty after thinking through that in that way.
Also, thanks for the reframe on relapse. You're right... this hasn't been a series of relapses. The first time was a relapse and now he's just back in active alcoholism... masked in the guise of getting help.
I hope he does get help but I'm trying hard to not feel horrible about not "believing in" him this time... going through the emotional, mental and even practical suffering (like missing an event to drive him to AA in another town, disappointing other loved ones... that was one of those times where I think I did a really poor job with boundaries...)
I'd probably cut off a leg for a friend if it would actually help them... but no sense cutting off a leg just cuz, right?
*Beginning to feel more confident...*
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