thequest

Piece on persuasion and manipulation. Frequently used by alcoholics and addicts.

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/psych...-manipulation/

I've observed almost every single one . Manipulation and persuasion are also used by con artists. There is a 'normal' conversation then there is alcoholic or addict trying to get their way.

Dandelion12

Many many non addicts do the same

Any disorder on a spectrum displays a plethora of "character defects".

Just felt the need to say something because Ive seen too many people working hard to overcome whatever cards they were dealt and restore themselves to have such a broad condemnation heaped on an entire group of people exclusivley.

Ted Bundy, to name one, was not and addict.

thequest

I agree there a lot of non addicts that exhibit these behaviors but addicts and alcoholics tend to get very good at using and exploiting those characteristics as tools. Along with displaying those characteristic more than usual. Just like a burglar can take a common screw driver to break into a house.

Although Ted Bundy not an addict per say he did have a lethal compulsion. Instead of a chemical he sought out human prey for his own gratification.

Dandelion12

Yes so Im not sure what the point of your post was, except to denigrate and label a group of people.

As a survivor of an abuser(sexual), that turned in desperation to ANYTHING for relief I feel its just derogatory to those of us in pain.

AutumnMama

trailmix

Dandelion12, the articles that are posted in this forum (by and large from what I have seen) are rarely posted in any kind of malicious fashion, more of an informative fashion.

It is widely accepted that addicts in the throes of addiction have a great tendency to be manipulative, so it is relevant to the discussion of F&F of alcoholics.

Just as someone who is recovering from life with an alcoholic might find some of the posts in newcomers or the alcoholism forum hurtful or offensive, so might you find the same here and I totally get that. Maybe you are not in a place right now where you find these types of posts helpful?

NYCDoglvr

Some alcoholics, yes, but not all. When judging a group a good rule of thumb: never say never, never say always. But on the other hand, if I let myself be manipulated then I'm responsible for the situation. That's why there's AA and Alanon.

Seren

My sister is an alcoholic and addict in recovery. She was never manipulative or tried to persuade me of anything in the throes of her active addiction.

My stepson is an alcoholic and addict still active in his addiction. He is a king at guilt trips and manipulation to get what he wants.

It is something that some addicts and alcoholics use to "protect" the addiction. And yes, we are adults with free will. It is our responsibility to stand in our own truth and not allow ourselves to be manipulated.

FallenAngelina

I agree that there is entirely too much denigration of addicts and a lot of "Us. vs. Them" conversation that goes unchecked in this forum section. I get it that we have all been hurt by alcoholics, but the generalizations and put downs of an entire group that seem to be acceptable discussion topics - I don't get that at all and I don't find it helpful for anything but fomenting more and more anger. I'm glad you said something.


This.

The more we all take responsibility for OUR part in our relationships, the more we change for the better, the less we are available to participate in unpleasant things like manipulation. Nobody can just barge into our lives and manipulate a person with solid, healthy boundaries and self esteem.

Needabreak

This part of the forum is for people who have interacted with alcoholics and addicts. It is not a recovery board for alcoholics and addicts. Many people here have had very difficult experiences, and the anger is still raw. Working through that anger is a big part of our own codependent recovery. I get why people post these things and see no need to put them down for it.

That said, to stay stuck in a place of anger is not helpful. At some point we do have to take responsibility for our own feelings, our own happiness, and not give others so much control.

After all, in many cases, we chose to get into and stay in the situation. Putting the focus back on ourselves and asking ourselves why is the really important question

FireSprite

Idk trail - this article has ZERO reference to addiction in any way & is presented to a specific forum of people affected by addicts in their lives.

I also deeply object to the "us vs them" dynamic that often rears it's ugly head in this forum... for instance, how many people here are receptive to hearing that the behavior discussed in this article is what I experienced with my very codependent mother, not my addict father?

That conversation goes nowhere fast in this forum, but it's just as relevant & commonplace & could provide just as much insight & healing if people were open to discussion.

FallenAngelina

Yes, I'm aware what this forum section is for. But there's a reason that at the beginning of every AlAnon meeting, we remind ourselves to "keep the focus on ourselves, not on the alcoholic." If we continue to just vent and lay most of the blame at the feet of the bad behavior of others, then nothing changes. It's only when we look at our own patterns, our own thoughts and our own behavior that our lives change. That's really my only point.

Needabreak

Agree. I haven't used any "substances" since college 30 years ago, and can't even remember the last time I drank. But my codependent father and narcissistic mother really messed me up when I was young!

Once I really started looking at myself though, I saw that there were far more blockages in my life than just the ones that the addict brought. In fact, my relationship with him was far more of a symptom of my own unhappiness and dysfunction than a cause.

So often we try to pass off responsibility for our feelings onto others. We're unhappy? Not getting enough intimacy? Well, my parents set me up to fail. My partner must have a personality disorder or something. And we stay, and ruminate, and detach, and cry, and hope, and try, and hope, and simmer, and stay, and ruminate some more.

A huge dysfunction for so many people on this board (including myself at one time) is that we stay stuck in all that blame, rumination and anger, and never ask ourselves, well, what are my issues? What is my responsibility? After all, I co-created this situation. And then we stay stuck in a relationship living in hope that he /she will change, when maybe the reality is, they just aren't capable of being a good partner / spouse anymore. And by staying with them, we are wasting our potential, our one precious human life on this earth.

I've never been big on Al-Anon, but I agree with Fallen Angelina. The fix here is to take the focus off of others and put it back on ourselves. But it is a process, a long, slow awakening that many people never reach.

FireSprite

YES!

trailmix

I totally agree that making broad generalization (pretty much about anything) isn't helpful, here or anywhere.

That said, as Needabreak said "The fix here is to take the focus off of others and put it back on ourselves. But it is a process, a long, slow awakening that many people never reach".

Sometimes that gets messy. I don't see a plethora of negative posting here, in general, that is non-specific, I don't think? I think there is some negativity but isn't that the nature of the beast?

If you go in to any forum on this site it's not all roses, it's not all perfectly on topic or relevant, can we not just talk to each other?

But, maybe that's just me. And while I 100 percent agree that looking at your own way is more important, again as Needabreak said, it's a process.

I don't know, thequest felt this was relevant to her experience, Personally I'm good with that and instead of rejecting that I wish this conversation was about what we do or don't find that applies.

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...m-mistake.html (Read posts from A forum - Mistake!!)

trailmix

Oh and FS, I'm totally open to that discussion! I think it would be a great topic.

FireSprite

Absolutely it's a multi-layered process. Anyone can troll through my history & see that I am proof how recovery is an evolution over time. I've said many times that there is no way to do this dance perfectly, so I learned to fall gracefully instead.

For the record, I don't find the article offensive or terribly out of place depending on the resulting conversation it inspires.

I've been here for many years. The difference I see now vs then is that when these conversations open up there isn't as much willingness to own our own sides of the street. Yes, a certain amount of complaining & negativity & struggle about life with addiction is going to (& should) happen here - we are all at different stages & living in different situations & here for a common reason. In cases of domestic violence or any abuse -YES- we need to focus on strategies about safety & well being first before we even have the ability or sanctuary in order TO examine ourselves clearly to growth & heal.

But we don't all live in constant or extended crisis moments. It DOES become about managing the day-to-day in different ways. About OUR recoveries first because it's the thing we CAN control & where we CAN create change. About how our recoveries are more than JUST our qualifiers & how real recovery shows up at work, in friendships, affects how we parent - among other things. One of the most obnoxious truths about my recovery has been that for every finger I was pointing, I could easily turn 3 back on myself. That awareness in no way invalidated my experiences. I would have never grown without someone challenging my ideas & asking hard questions. Something as basic as someone advising me to listen to my pronouns for a couple of days struck me dumb when I did & then heard myself "you-you-you-they-they-they'ing" all over the place. Contrast inspires growth - like it or not.

So when we talk about too much "negativity" or whatever, I really interpret that to mean we all could benefit from a better balance of self-recovery talk/posts. I bump a LOT of old threads for this exact reason - there really is gold in the archives if you go looking, lol.

Givenup2018

I don’t see anything wrong with the article or the posting of it. Thank you for the article OP. My AH can be incredibly manipulative, and this gives some insight. I trust I am not offending anyone by saying that.
I don’t know about other people’s experiences but if we have to “shut down” voices that are perceived by some as being insulting etc then I wonder what the F&F of alcoholics forum is for what? Do we now have to be politically correct even though respectful?
Perhaps one is not ready to hear others truths. Incidentally my AH’s MO is often to shut me down or take topics for discussion off the table as a way to protect his addiction and himself. I will probably receive flak for this but this forum is meant to help Fand F of Alcoholics and they need a safe space to do so without having to watch over their shoulder. If people are disrespectful them moderators can deal with that, but stop suggesting there is an “othering” when there really isn’t one.

FireSprite

No one is getting "shut down" - we were trying to widen the conversation, and I was making the point that some topics/topic changes don't get the same interest or responses & that's really too bad because there is tremendous opportunity to be had there.

As far as "othering" goes - Hawkeye literally just shared this yesterday:

and added this today:
My real point up-thread was that WE often manipulate too & it's worth looking at how this malice shows up on our side of the street. That doesn't mean we ALL do it or do it to the same degrees - just that it's WORTH EXAMINING.