needuall

All that I know are so selfish it is hard to believe! There is no remorse or amends even! Are they truly oblivious to the harm they do?
Just as selfish in sobriety too - so can't blame their abuse substance.
I am interested in anyone else's experiences regarding this.

Mango212

I was talking today with yet another person who had really good things to say about my husband. There's many times he's shown up for others to help them out, often going out of his way to do so.

This disease takes many turns. My husband has been generous to friends, family and strangers both in his active illness and in recovery.

I've been asking for clarity lately and this keeps coming up. Weird.

thequest

If the priority/focus of a person's life is to get a high or buzz how is that not selfish.

That being said keep in mind that substance might lower impulse control or exacerbate existing behaviors/mindset. A sober person can control most impulses-some call it civility, courtesy, polite, obey the law etc. As can a sober person's focus can control other issues to a point. But in the end, sadly we frequently get to see the true character of a person under the influence and that includes not resisting temptation and committing crimes. The drug didn't do it but an ends justifies the means mindset did.

Also how observant can intoxicated person be. The only nuances and behaviors they seem to pick up on are the manipulative ones in order to facilitate and obtain that next high.

NYCDoglvr

[QUOTE Are they truly oblivious to the harm they do?][/QUOTE]

In fact, they simply don't care as long as the sole focus is alcohol. Alcohol is their higher power, God and great love of their lives rolled into one. "Self centered in the extreme" is how AA-founder Bill Wilson describes the alcoholic. What the non-alcoholic can do is go to Alanon and walk away.

DiggingForFire

PuzzledHeart

Mango, I've heard this too about my sister. For a long time I couldn't explain it, and then today, I swear, I had an epiphany.

It's transactional. It's the wish that if she goes out of her way to take care of others who aren't worn down by her BS, then they will take care of her.

I'll be the first one to admit that when I do good deeds I get something in return - admiration and respect from others, external validation. However, at the end of the day, I don't believe in the Giant Karmic Bank. Sometimes the cruelest things happen to the kindest people, and we have no choice but to pick up and survive.

So the kindness- I just don't trust it when I don't trust the messenger. I think it's another variation of gaslighting and denial in my humble opinion: "I can't be as bad as my ex says because I get on fantastically well with so-and-so acquaintance." Everybody is on their best behavior when they enter a room full of strangers.

I have lost count of so many politicians/leaders who have been pulled off their high pedestals after they were caught cheating on their spouses, cooking the books, doing drugs, whatever.

I don't want to end on such a a harsh note, because I do believe that some people are just kind. I just lost a friend recently, and I was going through all the gifts she ever gave me. She never expected anything in return. Due to life's circumstances, she could have been so bitter, but instead she was so fundamentally good that even her loss has sweetness to it. I can never be like her, but I can try.

seekingcalm

Sobriety is so often misunderstood. Not drinking, abstinence, if an alcoholic is not seriously working a strong program of recovery as if their life depended on it, which it in fact does, will not change negative alcoholic behavior.
Even when a strong program is being worked on...six months is such a short time. My AH has 9 years of sobriety, true sobriety...still working hard everyday to be a better man. I am grateful, but I remember when he had 12 days, 12 weeks, 1 year...he still had to rethink and review what was his way of thinking for so long while active in his addiction.
When I began this journey, I thought if only he would stop drinking, everything would be fine. But I have learned, that is never enough to change the distorted thinking that becomes a part of the addict.

tomsteve

i wasnt always oblivious to the harm. quite often i didnt like what i had done or said to others.
then there were times i just didnt care.
when i got into recovery there was a crapton of remorse.no more denial. i hated who i was and what i had done in the past.
amends came after i learned about myself- the causes and conditions of why i was what who i was. amends couldnt occur without that.

there are some,though, that are completely oblivious to the harm theyve done. seems the ones like that are either still in active alcoholism or have untreated alcoholism.

samlynn

This happened to me this weekend. We had a birthday party to attend but he was hungover and self-medicating to "fix" it so I left him at home and took our son with me. One of the young people there who had grown up with our 21 year old daughter commented how much she missed seeing my husband (she lives out of state now and we don't see her for a few years at a time) and what a great dad he was. I almost choked. I just said, "I am glad you have good memories of being with our family" and left it at that. Her dad is an alcoholic too. She is oblivious to our struggles. It amazes me.

hummingbird358

My son is self centered, ungrateful, manipulative, lying, etc. Can't stand him. Even when he was sober and living at the sober living home... he couldn't even say thank you for his Christmas gift or text me Merry Christmas... Totally ignored my text on Christmas day... he had been sober for only 3 weeks at that time but still....

MindfulMan

Some people are self-centered to the extreme.

Some self-centered people are also addicts. They're not going to change their spots just because they're no longer drinking/using/whatever. So there's that.

I don't think many who haven't gone through addiction and recovery themselves understands that for most addicts not of the narcissistic/sociopathic stripe aren't selfish. They're irrational and delusional. Substance abuse of any nature, or even behaviors like gambling, take on a life of their own. Once addicted, there is nothing, NOTHING more important that using the substance or behavior. It's not that we don't care about you. At some level, many really do. It's that feeding the beast is far FAR more important than any person, and that includes friends, family, ANYONE or ANYTHING.

For the newly abstinent, this is often replaced by their recovery process, and it nearly always needs to be that way. Some addicts will eventually emerge on the other side and actually build a sober life. And sometimes the ahole under the addiction that was always there returns.

Addicts aren't doing horrible things to hurt you, they're doing it to survive....because to an addict, their substance of choice is more important than food, sex, anything. The director of my outpatient rehab is a brilliant recovery expert, and is himself a recovering heroin addict. He's a PhD, MBA, and running one of the most respected addiction/recovery programs in the country at UCLA. He put it this way. Imagine every need has a level of urgency. Having to pee might be a one and escalate to a 7. Sex may be normally a five, hunger a 3 until you're stranded on a desert island. But nothing is a 10. That's the executive function at the head of the table, that has veto power over everything else.

At some point, however, the drug of choice crosses that line and becomes an 11. Once that happens, the executive power is number 2, and DOESN'T have veto power any more. As long as that drug is in the picture, it will always be number one.

I know this is nearly impossible to do in practice, but try not to take it personally. Addicts aren't doing this to make their loved ones miserable. They literally have no control over their actions once it hits a certain point. Changing that takes a huge amount of work and an even larger amount of intention. If someone is getting sober in 12 Step, it's even laid out for you, about your character defects, about making amends, it's part of the process.

I know. I've been there. I got out of that hell. Fortunately I have been single through most of my adult life and kept my family out of it. Otherwise I would have treated anyone close to me as objects that stood in the way of my various addictions, and it would have taken at least a year to start thinking straight. At least.

It's not you. It's the drug. I know it doesn't make it any easier, but dealing with an addict is torture enough without trying to make them better, or wonder why you're being treated so horribly, and then, of course, never knowing when the other shoe is going to drop and they're going to relapse.

If I'd been involved with me during my last years of drinking and the upheaval that was my sobriety, I would have left. Without question. Am I a bad, selfish person? No, ask anyone that knew or knows me...I managed to hide how bad the problem was and didn't get close enough to anyone who might have have gotten between me and my drinking. But I was an addict. And addicts are delusional.

Now I'm finally ready to have real relationships, I'm truly done. I doubt an existing relationship would have survived the dark monster that I became at many times in my addiction cycles.

trailmix

MindfulMan, what a great post, thanks for sharing that. It explains it so clearly.

needuall

Great to hear from all of you! Thank you so much! So helpful, honest and informative! I always thought is was their delusional thinking that was really the problem-whether the addiction caused it or it was there before abusing a substance is unknown. What about family members who are co-dependent who ignore and deny the addict's harm? Dealing with them can be extremely difficult also. I feel like I am the only one in my family who sees the sickness and does not want to be a part of it but I do want to walk away from the co-dependents (co-dependent due to finances or age). I know boundaries are absolutely necessary but still difficult. The monster is in the middle of everyone in the family and everyone reacts differently depending on a number of factors including their own personality. I do think they all know I will not participate in the craziness. While the addict is spiraling down they pull in their enablers but when/if they want recovery they must need the support of the non-enablers--hopefully they have some who are there and are ready for them.
I welcome any responses!

FallenAngelina

I would caution against "Us vs. Them" thinking. I would also caution about assigning selfishness. All of us are selfish in that we are all seeing to our own needs - often it's the person who lives closely with the alcoholic who is the most blind to the many ways in which she attempts to control the situation in order to meet her needs, right down to blaming "Them." It's really easy to get many others to join in this blame - not so easy to look at our own thinking and how we, ourselves, could use some changing. This is why we always remind ourselves at the beginning of every AlAnon meeting to keep the focus on ourselves, not on the alcoholic. It's really easy to find a huge pile of support when we feel wronged by "Them," but it takes a lot of consistent reminders to find support and commit to the change within ourselves.

I have eliminated "selfish" from my vocabulary. All it means to me is that someone is not doing what I want them to be doing. Unless I want to walk around with a load of resentment and fear on my back, it's best to stop assigning blame to others and focus primarily on what does for me, what I appreciate and what I want. What we focus upon is what grows in our lives and I'd rather not live in a world of angry, ever widening walls between "Us" and "Them." People can't show us the best in themselves when we approach them with resentment and fear.

dawnrising

seekingcalm

Not having a relationship with my son is heartbreaking. It's not what I thought would happen when he grew up. That sweet loving boy is still in there somewhere, but this man is someone I don't recognize anymore. But he is a grown man, he owes me nothing, and I have to live my life and allow him to live his.

CedarTexas

All I can say is work the steps for Al-Anon. I and many others in "the program" learned this often times the hard way. Step 1 - accept you are powerless over alcohol. There is absolutely NOTHING you can do to change the behavior of an alcoholic. They have to want it themselves. Yes, they will be self-centered and do things that may be hurtful, even during recovery, but that's where Step 3 comes in - Surrender to a higher power (however you may see it) and know that that higher power will guide you through the tough times. After these first 3, you can begin to work on yourself and making your life better in the remaining steps. I think I've mentioned this before, but "taking care" of an alcoholic is totally opposite of how you would react to a "normal" person. If someone you care for has the flu, you want to make them better. With an alcoholic, that will only make things worse. They have to WANT it. I guess an old timer put it to me well. You have to learn to separate the person from the disease. I too was frustrated by what I perceived was the selfishness of my qualifier, but their actions are on them. When I really thought about it, it was the disease that was making the person act out the way they did, but again that's on them and there is nothing I can do about it. Put it this way, I have a hula-hoop around me. I can only fit so many things inside that hula-hoop. All the other things, I have to Let Go and follow Step 3. That's the only way I will be able to find and keep serenity. I can only make myself a better person and don't have the right to expect anything from anyone else. Keep up the good fight and take things one day at a time!