Pathwaytofree

A warning for those who are the family scapegoat or lost child. Don't do the 12 steps with a sponsor. Do them with a therapist who knows you're the family scapegoat/lost child, and has an understanding of this and other roles of dysfunctional/alcoholic families.

It'll f*ck up your head in major ways especially Steps 4, 8, and 9. Your sponsor will likely have no idea what a family scapegoat is, or understand how your family treated you. You'll be told you were just overly sensitive, or that your family did the best they could with what they had. You'll be told that you didn't appreciate all your family did for you and all that you had. They'll just continue to put the emphasis on how bad a person you were for acting out, (or that you were selfish and self-centered for acting in), and to make amends. They'll put you in the AA box, but the scapegoat doesn't fit in there. Neither does the lost child.

The family scapegoat (and the lost child) doesn't usually harm. They were the ones harmed. If they make amends, they will thrown back into the scapegoat's face. The family scapegoat will be making amends for things they didn't do but the family makes them think they harmed them, because the scapegoat is blamed for everything.

AA and the 12 steps teach to forgive and to treat your family with love, that that'll change them. But what AA and most likely your ignorant sponsor does not get, is that in a lot of cases this is viewed as WEAKNESS of the scapegoat, giving the dysfunctional/alcoholic family more opportunity to mess with them and manipulate them even more.

AA and the 12 steps do not teach that it's okay to go no contact. They think treating a toxic person with love will heal them. It's overly simplified, idealistic, ignorant, and potentially harmful. When you give certain types of toxic people love, it becomes their drug or their way to further manipulate or abuse you. Save yourself. Love yourself. Take care of yourself.

I'm done with AA and any other 12 step program.

The 12 steps were a blessing and a curse for me. I try to focus on all the good that came out of my step work, but the harm was way too much. I fear I'll never get over it. It's been a number of years already since my thorough step work, and I can't get my energy or life back into gear.

My advice from my hard lesson learned: STAND ON YOUR OWN TWO FEET. Trust your inner truth. Go to therapy to heal. Your instincts about everything were always right.

That being said I'm not bashing AA. I've seen it first hand work miracles and transformations for countless people. In my experience, I've seen more miracles in AA then other 12 step groups. But AA and the 12 steps is not the right recovery mode for everyone, no matter what they say and want you to believe.

In hindsight I probably should've just stuck with ACOA as my 12 step program and gone to therapy and here for my addictions instead of 12 step programs.

RDBplus3

Pathway - sounds like good advice - for yourself, maybe.

I've certainly got a lot better input from so many other posts from the Sober Recovery Community.

I do pray you have found your path to being Free.

sugarbear1

I own the book Adult Children of Dysfunctional Families or whatever it is called and it's about 2 or 3 times the size of the big book, for many reasons.....

I'm happy you found a good therapist. They are hard to find (for me).

May you enjoy your sober journey!
Peace

Pathwaytofree

Thanks, Sugarbear. That's a really good point!

Good therapists are hard to find. It takes a while. I think my past two were so good because we had similar experiences in some ways. My current one is good too. But it's not exactly the same because that commonality is missing.

Pathwaytofree

I shared my experience in case it would help anyone else.

Would you mind sharing the link? Thank you.

.
Ironic, I know. But thank you for your kindness.
Trying another path. It's all part of the journey I guess.

DayTrader

The Big Book and the steps therein are a guide to what the first 100 (give or take) did to recover. It doesn't state what the reader should do. Unlike your post, the AA program doesn't tell the reader what to do or not do - unless the reader plans to do what those first 100 did. If that's the case, one could infer what they should try. Sharing your experience would be saying what you did and what happened. That there when right out the window starting with your second sentence and escalated from there. .........which is fine, but there is a definite difference between sharing one's own experience and telling ppl what to do, not do and how this or that will f*ck them up........

Path, sorry to hear you're so lost. The steps are a guide to a God, or Higher Power if you will. Some are able to find sufficient power in the people in their lives or even within themselves. Some aren't and need to find a connection with something greater than human power.

I hope your path works for you but I don't find much merit in telling others that what's worked for millions won't work for them, advising people not to do it and so forth because it either didn't work for you or you weren't able actually complete the program - both of which are perfectly ok.

I suspect if the roles were reversed and (for example) I were to post how dangerous I felt it was to NOT work the AA program to completion - with a sponsor, how a therapist will teach self dependence instead of a reliance upon God like the 12 steps do, and suggest other paths to recovery were dangerous there's be a pretty substantial backlash. And of course, stirring the pot and looking for that backlash is usually what's behind posts of that (and this) nature.

Rather than seek forums where people are happy and content with other forms of recovery and posting how I think they're silly, I prefer to stay positive and help those in the program I'm in. I find I do better, I don't create drama in other groups, and the people who actually want my help have me available to lend it.

weewillie

Impressive post, Pathwaytofree

weewillie.

MindfulMan

12 Step ultimately wasn't my path either. My therapist is in recovery (sex and love addiction which revolved around a lot of drugs) and has done 12 Step work. We do some modified step work, particularly Step 4, although we both loathe the term "character defects" and call them "scripts that don't work."

I think this is what Pathway was mostly suggesting. I think you can do a lot within the 12 Step program and a lot of it depends on getting a good sponsor (as therapy depends on getting a good therapist). I actually had a really good sponsor, but the whole surrendering to a higher power didn't work for me. Organized religion doesn't either.

I don't preach one way or the other. 12 Step has helped millions, partially because it was the only game in town for so long, but more importantly, it does keep people sober. But there are other ways. I used a combination of everything that I could get my hands on and kept what stuck.

I also was the odd one out in my family. My needs weren't met, my father resented that I was gay and treated me horribly for most of his life, and I was always angry. Oddly enough a few weeks back I thought about my father's last year alive after a near death experience. He completely changed his relationship with me. When I concentrated on that, the resentment just fell away. Therapy has definitely helped me get to this point, as have some of the principals of 12 Step. I think part of the issue that Pathway may be having is that if you were abused and mistreated as a child, you really have no part in it. Possibly later in the relationship we may have had a part in maintaining a toxic resentment, but even that is tough to confront because there are so many basic survival terrors wrapped up in it. I can see where an insensitive sponsor (or therapist, for that matter) might be stressful around this step work. But at least a therapist is trained to deal with these issues and has a lot of coaching in developing empathy.

It's all good.

Tommyh

I don`t know much about being the lost child or family scapegoat
but I definitely was the family black sheep
they didn't care where I went ,they was just glad I went somewhere and stopped drinking

wish you the best on your journey PTF,follow your conscience

LaceyDallas

tomsteve

it would be nice to see where the BB says we can love our family into change.

Ken33xx

When it comes to finding a sponsor it's hit or miss. I do feel most people mean well but are not necessarily a good fit for those with deep psychology wounds.

But as was mentioned above finding the right therapist isn't easy either assuming you can afford one.

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hellrzr

Sounds like maybe you found a therapist who is catering to your Alcoholism and telling you want you want to hear. Also sounds like maybe you were working with a sponsor who did not do that and wanted you to hold yourself responsible and be accountable for the part you played in your life and your problems.

Then again maybe I'm all wet and have no clue what I'm talking about! I'm just an Alcoholic who tries to help other Alcoholics.

I worked with a therapist and found it to be one of the most useless things I've ever done. For me it was an absolute waste of time and money. I certainly did not go to a website though and posted a long, nonsensical, rambling about how terrible therapists are. But sometimes we feel the need to disparage things that seem to work so well for others but not for ourselves.

None the less, it's good to hear that you have found something that works for you. Hopefully your advice will not dissuade others from working a program that has worked so well for millions of people over many decades.

Pathwaytofree

If you've read my hundreds of past posts and threads on SR I was always extremely helpful and supportive of people in AA and following the big book.

I am not telling people to do.

I am merely putting it out there as a warning. I wish someone had warned me. I was trying to be helpful. AA is not a one-size-fits-all.

That's SO not what I'm doing.
I just wanted to warn people who might be the family scapegoat or family lost child (see ACOA terms) that if the step work seems to be causing them more harm than good, that it's not their fault.

I just read a worksheet on Step 4 that said it's not that we had low self-esteem, it's that we had HIGH self esteem. It was something like the example in the book of "Mr. Brown giving my wife attention" and that the truth was that he thought "I am the best husband in the world!" and that's what caused the resentment. Telling everyone in AA that our resentments are caused by too high self esteem is harmful.

I was only sharing my experience, that is all. I still think AA is a fantastic program. My post was to help others who may have had the same experience I did with 12-step programs.

I most certainly was not looking to stir the pot or look for backlash. I don't appreciate being accused of that. I was sharing my experience and my feelings. That was all.

I never said AA was silly. I don't appreciate your putting words into my mouth.

I said AA has worked miracles for tons of people, but it is not the answer for everyone.

I am certainly not trying to create drama.

I've been very helpful to others on this forum. I am allowed to share my struggles here too.

You completely misread my post and intended purpose.

Pathwaytofree

Thanks for your post Mindfulman. I enjoy hearing about your experience with this. I also loathe the term "character defects". I prefer "defense mechanisms". I like "scripts that don't work." :-)

I realize my original post was written when I was feeling emotional, and so it wasn't written clearly. Thank you for understanding my intentions underneath the emotion.

I agree. The 12 steps taught me self-awareness of how I was thinking and acting based on other people. I actually at the time was okay with the higher power thing and found it helpful then. But I truly understand how people struggle with that as well as with organized religion. But again that's just my personal opinion.
My intention was not to preach. It just sounds that way because I was emotional. It's great to see people do what works for them. I was just trying to help anyone who might have had a similar experience that I did, and didn't understand why.

I agree. I've seen it work miracles for many.

I am sorry you had that experience. That is so cool he changed his relationship with you and you, and the resentment was gone. I've heard miracles of that happening.

Yes that's a large chunk of it. My first sponsor wanted me to make amends to my mother for something my therapist basically laughed at and said "so you were a normal child, then."

Yes, this is what I was struggling with putting into words.

Thanks, MindfulMan.

Pathwaytofree

Tommyh, I am and always will be a recovery friend to you on SR. AA and SR are lucky to have you. Your family must be very happy and proud of your sobriety.

Pathwaytofree

I didn't say I didn't like the 12 steps or AA, just that not for me. I certainly did not "try to run off other people". Perhaps you are in ego right now and projecting.

Pathwaytofree

Hi tomsteve, as you know I enjoyed quoting the big book hundreds of times on SR to help people and pass along what was taught to me.

The big book doesn't say we can love our family into change. What I was told multiple times by my former home group's leader and my sponsor was that if I love them, they'll feel the love and will be warm and loving back. Sometimes, yes, but it depends on the type of person we're dealing with.

Pathwaytofree

Yes, exactly. Stuff like c-PTSD or something. Thanks for putting it into words that I was unable to find while writing my thread. One of my AA friends--an oldtimer-- had a violent alcoholic dad growing up. I think he'd get what I was trying to say.

I strongly regret making that assumption. Therapy is expensive and sucks when you have to decide between food and therapy, like food and medication. :-(

I have a friend who got very inexpensive dental work when he was unemployed, via a university program. The dental students did a great job. There might be programs like that for therapy. I once had an intern as a therapist. I paid a small co-pay fee.

In thinking about the number of hours I've spent at AA meetings or talking to my former sponsor--thank goodness AA is free. We are very fortunate in that respect. Thank you Ken for the reminder.

Pathwaytofree

No one's telling me what I want to hear. I can read through that bs. Nor do I want someone to tell me what I want to hear. What a waste of time that'd be.

I never wanted a sponsor to tell me what I wanted to hear. I wanted a sponsor who helped guide me to truth, which she did to a point.

This was a fantastic part of the step work, agreed.

As am I. My point was to not make someone feel badly if they get to a point where they feel AA is not for them.

I've had that experience too, and have had friends say the same thing.

I was in a bad headspace. I was triggered by a speaker at a meeting teach that the 4th step should be done from a place of alcoholics having resentments because our self-esteem is too high. He went on and on that we have resentments because of stuff like "How could HE treat me that way? Doesn't he know I'm the best employee EVER???" I was floored. I was emotionally triggered. My resentments were definitely not caused by high self esteem. In fact, low self esteem made everything worse. Thankfully I was taught in AA that what people say and do is not personal. That freed me.

That's not what I was doing. Again, my post was for people like me who may have had the same experience in AA. I was trying to help them.

I never said "don't do AA". I said that I saw AA work miracles for countless people. Therapy isn't the be all end all. I'm not sure why I wrote it like it was. Maybe it's empty hope or something.

My point is that it is not right for everyone and no one should be blamed if they feel it's not right for them, and that other things might work instead.

Had I been less emotional when I wrote this thread it would've been written more clearly.