FireSprite

Some recent trips down the rabbit hole & conversations with good friends enlightened me to something I never realized about myself -

My definition of being strong/showing strength is heavily contaminated with Control.... time to update this programming.

All of those primary examples of Strength in my formative years were really a lot of people running around exerting their control over things & appearing strong & confident as a result.

Strong-arming situations/Winning is NOT Strength.... and dang, sometimes it can be very subtle & hard to spot (especially when someone is an expert in passive-aggressive behaviors)!

biminiblue

I think it's human nature to try to control situations to get the best possible outcome/position for oneself. Some continue to get more and more competitive, some go with the flow and some just give up depending on how high the personal stakes are in any given situation.

I've been watching a troupe of gorillas for an hour or two per day for the last few months. It's all about control and power and procreation/survival of the individual genetics. He/she with the most power passes along their genetics and then those get magnified in subsequent generations and it's really a self-contained story in power and control.

And yeah, I know we aren't gorillas but the similarities in human behaviors are not lost on me while I'm observing them.

I do think at some point the tables will turn on this for humans, but it's not now - not at this particular time in history anyway.

AutumnMama

To answer the subject:
--Being scared of something, and doing it anyway

--Being yourself, regardless of what other people say about you

--Supporting yourself/earning your keep... being able to be independent financially, I guess.
(not sure if that is a healthy one?)

--Being able to keep an open mind about a person or situation when all you really want to do is hate the place/person.

Regarding "winning". I think we all do this. I mean the gut reaction when my husband told me he wanted a divorce, was to try to win him back--just so that *I* could be in control of when the relationship ends. I did not act on it, and maybe 5 years ago I would have, but I felt the pull to WIN.

But I also struggle with not asserting myself in situations either. I think there's a fine line of asserting yourself to get what you deserve, and just doing something for the sole reason of "winning"

tomsteve

i think this is going to be a good thread. thanks FS.
the one thing that came to mind to me when i read the question was
saying NO when just about every part of me doesnt want to.

also,mustering up just enough courage to face fears.

Glenjo99

Followingl a conversation with a friend around a similar subject today, I think strength is being vulnerable. Being courageous enough to be show someone your true self. That is true strength.


​​​​​​I struggle to do it.

Pathwaytofree

I have two people in my family who are aggressive and think getting their way is strength.

I used to know someone who showed great strength by being silent.

I think people who are resilient, courageous in the face of fear, those who do the right thing with humility, help others anonymously without seeking the attention for it. Those are some signs of strength.

People who walk away or hold their tongue instead of engaging--also signs of strength.

CoffeeBuff

Real strength comes from the higher power and flows into all other areas if we let it.

Clover71

Awal

Ditto clover x

DriGuy

Addressing only the thread title, I would have correlated strength with confidence. But in your explanation that follows, I see you are taking it in another direction, and I can understand how control can be a measure of strength. We see this in gorilla societies as well as corporate boardrooms, and ordinary relationships.

I was surprised and interested in your observations of passive-aggression, a powerful form of control that I associate with what I call weak personalities, making passive aggression somewhat of an oxymoron. I feel the strength of passive aggression when someone uses it to control me, and I feel a loss of emotional control, giving a passive aggressive person great control over my emotional buttons. But that control is short lived and destructive to all players. It's why passive aggressors end up losers, and corporate CEOs get all the money.

In the context of recovery, I identify strength as "confidence and determination." And since it addresses only our own self interests, it is not sullied by competition with others creating winners and losers. It's a way to win without requiring someone else to endure a loss. It's more worthy of my respect than competitive measures of strength.

biminiblue

Elder’s Meditation of the Day January 31

“In sharing, in loving all and everything, one people naturally found a due portion of the thing they sought, while in fearing, the other found need of conquest.”
–Chief Luther Standing Bear, SIOUX

There are two systems of thought that are available for us to choose from. One is the love-thought system and the other is the fear- thought system. If we choose love, we will see the laws, principles and values of the Creator. If we choose fear, the results will be so paralyzing that it will cause us to take over and not rely on the Great Spirit. The fear-thought system will automatically cause attack, conflict, need to control over others. The love-thought system seeks peace of mind, unity and causes us to be love seekers.

Great Spirit, today let me see only love.

~Wellbriety

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ml#post7111636

With thanks to Ann for posting these every day.

Love or fear, it's always one or the other.

pdm22

There are certain types of qualities that I see as strength, and mostly, they are the quiet, under-the-radar type qualities/ actions.

I think my grandparents were strong. Both grandfathers fought in WW2 (one in Poland, one in France). I can’t even imagine what they went through, but from what I know, it was quite a lot.. They came from a generation and a culture where people didn’t really talk about things, and were quietly humble. My grandmothers had strength too, having to take care of their children, not knowing what the future held. Then when the communists came in (both sides of the family were in Poland at that point), living under that regime; watching their children emigrate to try to find a better life. That took strength.

I had a lot of issues with my father growing up, he was harsh. But I see strength in him now too. Came to the US with $28 in his pocket, in the 60s, a young man in his 20s, not knowing the language, not knowing a soul. The immigration laws were different then too, you needed a sponsor, and you were responsible for yourself. He worked in what I think was a sweat-shop style factory his whole life, where they took advantage of immmigrants (I don’t believe there was a union at the time, and later when there was, I don’t think things were much better), working long hours with no air conditioning. Lost some of his hearing because of the loud machines. And in all of that, was able to provide for his family and put his children through college. My mother too. It pained her greatly to be away from her family, she went through periods of depression, but plugged along and sent money home to her family. They both have that quiet, old school strength.

I also see strength in people who do the right thing, because they have strong convictions, even though it’s not popular within the culture or their “tribe” (family, local community, social circle, etc). For example, I like the story of Marilyn Monroe, in the 50s, how she got Ella Fitzgerald to be able to perform at the Mocambo club in Hollywood. This was way before political correctness was a thing, before the civil rights movement, so her opinion was not popular, or the norm, at the time. Yet she got them to let her play, in exchange for her giving the club publicity by showing up and sitting at the front table every night. And she followed through and did that. So that to me is strength. Going against the group, or what’s popular in the culture, and doing something because you have strong convictions, and believe it’s right. Sometimes people do this at a great personal loss to themselves. Now that to me is strength. Especially in today’s world, when someone does something quietly, and it’s not all over social media for the world to see.

Also I’ve noticed, certain types of people who may be suffering inwardly, but are able to put that aside personally, and channel it for others, by bringing comic relief and getting others to laugh. There’s a certain type of strength in people who are able to do this, to me as well.

Being able to put aside your emotional “monkey brain”, and see the big picture, in an emotionally charged situation, and navigate through that by visualizing future outcomes- like mental chess- that takes strength.

One of my strongest friends is someone who divorced her abusive father of his parental right when she was 16, and has been on her own, taking care of herself, ever since. Man, is she ever tough. Those people who develop that sort of psychological/ mental muscle after going through traumas and adversity, not everyone can do that, and that to me is a special kind of strength too.

FireSprite

I definitely see flexibility, resiliency & authenticity as core components to Strength. That whole, "warrior in the arena" thing again.

pdm - thank you for all those awesome & varied examples. You are all hitting on exactly what I'm trying to reprogram.

I raise the question for exactly this type of reason:

I've documented pretty well here that I was raised in a very dysfunctional FOO & that also included a very large extended, matriarchal-driven family on my father's side for the first 19-20 yrs of my life. It's like ground zero for codependency & masked addictions in that family - alcohol, drugs, gambling, food - all of it. It is not an exaggeration to say that you were either on one side of the street or another here - we're talking about generations steeped in secret-keeping & so-called high-functioning addictions. My father started drinking at age 9.

When I try to draw an example of real strength of character in people that influenced my fundamental years of development, my new yardstick says that they don't measure up because what I perceived to be strength was really dysfunction parading around in a different dress. I didn't recognize the passive aggressive behaviors as such, I was taught that people's controlling behaviors were examples of them being smart, in-charge, strong. They were a bunch of bullies essentially, adhering to their own matriarchal structure within the family.

To further complicate my impressions - my father drilled it into our heads that WE WERE strong girls/women (with no other qualifying info btw, just a grandiose statement without any guidance or substance). That our mother was strong & owed respect (simply for existing), all the while she was the biggest target for his family's bullying - and wow, did they! because they never accepted her in their family at all to begin with. In turn it all rolled downhill to us girls whether mom consciously meant to or not - she had no real skills to fall back on & a desperate need for them (aunts, cousins, grandmother) to accept her on any level so she suffered it constantly.

Meantime, so-called strong women all around me just playing a more advanced version of Mean Girls & I was being primed as future matriarch of this mess.

Now - it doesn't matter at this point in my life UNTIL it's part of the subconscious voice rising inside & casting self- judgment & self-sabotage when I stumble. That's why I need to dig it to the roots & plant something healthier to take it's place.

I agree & have much to say on this topic now that my quantum jar experiment has evolved over these last couple of months. The changes in these jars is relative to MY perceptions, definitions & life experience of the word it's labelled with - but some of it has been surprising & not at all what I would have expected, hence all the conversations & questions about what other's might think are just basic things.

I'm getting ready to start again with new words & I'm taking my time determining what those words will be.

DriGuy

This mirrors my family experience. I spent a lot of time in my 20s reforming the perceptions, ethics, and attitudes I learned from my family. In many, but not all, cases, I simply viewed some of my parent's values as wrong, especially social values that were out of sync in a newer "more enlightened" generation, at least as I saw it, and in many cases, I'm positive my new values are the right ones.

On the other hand, I sometimes ignored good advice, mostly from my mother, but later learned she was right, and I had been out in left field when I ignored her.

Maybe this happens in every generation. I don't know. I used to think generations continually evolve in an enlightened direction, but now I'm not sure. Evolving toward enlightenment is not a constant linear progression if it happens at all. The pendulum swings in both directions in my observation.

Clover71

Pathwaytofree

In my opinion, it comes from extraordinary insecurity leading to severe over compensation.

"Pay no attention to the man behind the mirror".

Mango212

Strength: the quality or state of being strong.


I find strength by stepping through actions where I use different emotional muscles: kindness to self, playfulness, enjoyment of life, relaxation, connecting with healthy people, yoga, mind-body-spirit and mindfulness.

Glenjo99

Sometimes strength is having courage to say goodbye, thanks for sharing part of my journey with me but I deserve to have my needs met too. That's strength too, because it's not easy.

Mango212

Hi FireSprite,

Strength is choosing and creating a life I want, one day at a time.

Namaste