FireSprite

I'm the first to admit, this is not my best area of recovery. Forgiveness is a hard, hard thing for me to get to & I've outted myself more than once on this forum as a self-proclaimed Grudge Monster:

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ally-mean.html (What does Forgiveness really MEAN?)

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...-yourself.html (Apologizing to Yourself)


It's possible I've never realllllllly managed full-fledged forgiveness, even while I've managed to move on from those situations..... so of course, here I am again.... because like all things life-related, it's going to keep popping up in my path until I find a way to manage it better. (or, at all)

I'm opening up the conversation here, again, for any & all new perspectives.

Logically I know that the act of forgiving is FOR ME. It's choosing to put down the hot, burning stone of resentment & stopping it from hurting me any longer. It's not about absolving the other person from their behaviors, or accepting it as OK in any way, shape or form. I went back & read whatever I've previously written about this topic here on SR along with tons of shares from countless members going back way before my time.

But I just cannot get from my head to my heart with this so that I can Let Go. I have to. I'm holding myself off from things like Joy & Love & Happiness on a much larger level but making room for this instead.

I listened to a talk on this topic during my commute today & I've been making notes along the way (ok, more of a venn diagram for those of you familiar)... I must be getting SOMEWHERE with this because I'm picking up on more of the nuances that would normally escape me in these talks.... identifying with more instead of less, seeing the commonalities & not so focused on the differences.

One woman shared that to her, forgiveness = empathy. That empathy creates an understanding of the person's perspective in such a way that it sort of erases the need to forgive once you reach that point of understanding. Hmmm..... yes, this also seems reasonable to me.

Another described it as the willingness/ability to move forward without a need for vengeance. Okay, that makes sense too.

I really liked the idea that "Forgiveness is not Fixing" - it's not about changing the past or being able to somehow magically undo whatever was broken.

Thinking of forgiveness as "giving from the marrow of our souls" sounds very lofty in a spiritual way that appeals to me as well.


Right now these are just all really great ideas; independent thoughts with loose threads of connection tying them together in my mind. I cannot figure out how to convert this to Action - how to transmute it all so that I can free myself from it's weight. In some ways, I feel like grief is easier to identify & work through, despite all it's many stages. Maybe they are more similar than I realize.

What do I think I'm gaining by holding onto this? I'm guessing part of me subconsciously feels like this keeps my hurts real - they are mine & no one can take that away. I earned them the hard way, right? If I don't hold onto the hurts, does that change my story? Does it somehow negate those losses or lessons emotionally on a subconscious level? Do I think I'll FORGET how much it hurt? And what if it does.... is that really so bad?? Do I think holding this pain keeps me from repeating any mistakes or stop me from being a victim to other's behaviors?... like I can sew it into the armor that protects me from future pain?

I feel like I'm getting hung up on the "unfairness" of it - which is self-righteousness behavior on my part. As in, it's not my fault someone else chose behavior requiring forgiveness - maybe this is my own personal way of playing God in my own life. It's kind of powerful to withhold forgiveness from someone, or hold it over them like a figurative sword of Damocles.

I feel like I'm trapped inside of myself with this suddenly - like I'm standing in a gigantic, walled-in library & I need to locate that one book that triggers the secret door to open so that I can get out.

Mango212

Why forgiveness? If it's a subject with great resistance, maybe it's simply redirecting to another place for now. Just one take on this.

During reiki sessions I've found clarity on this subject in several different ways.

FireSprite

Because I am hurting myself in my inability to forgive - and I am holding myself back from my next stages of growth as a result. I also can't expect to lead DD effectively if I can't walk my own talk.

And again, I've struggled with this throughout my entire life so it's a recurring theme for me until I get to a better side of it, somehow.

Mango212

I did my first focus wheel a few days ago. It very helpful - ease, freedom to choose, clarity.

Basically, it's taking what feels wrong, speaking of it and looking towards the opposite end of the subject.


A.H. abundance
https://youtu.be/9r-eUVhoI5E

Focus wheel
https://youtu.be/wRqSAZ6HHY8

Take what you like and leave the rest.

AnvilheadII

remember, forgiveness goes both ways....or at least as stated in the Lord's Prayer.....

forgive us OUR trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us.

notice which comes first.

is there something in your life in need of forgiveness? maybe start there.....

trailmix

Hey FS, I don't know how you feel about Oprah but I think she is wise in many ways and maybe you will find this too regarding forgiveness:

She states it's not about absolving anyone of anything.

She goes on to say it's accepting that it (whatever that is) HAS happened to you, not that it was ok.

Forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past could have been any other way than it actually was.

And now, what do you do about it?

atalose

Forgiveness, yes, that’s a tough one for sure. I know for me it took me a long time to understand what it really meant to forgive someone. I had to forgive people who were not sorry and I had to accept an apology I never was going to receive. I realized it had nothing at all to do with them or absolving them of their behaviors and choices but it had everything to do with relieving myself of the burden of being a victim. I never envisioned myself as a victim but that’s what I was and that certainly was not what I wished to remain. In order for me to become the survivor I had to cut that provably red string that kept me attached to them.

That’s how I had to envision it in my head, that I was attached to them with a big red string and that string was made out of anger, resentment, bitterness and all the other negative things keeping me attached to them. I needed to free myself from that attachment. I pictured a big pair of scissors and cut myself free. As corny as it may sound I felt free and feeling free made me feel at peace. And when those old feelings towards them would come up I quickly let them go by reminding myself there was no longer that string binding me to them and those thoughts went away quicker and quicker.

honeypig

You have said, very clearly and accurately, exactly what I often feel too, especially the bolded part. If I don't hang on to the pain from the burn, will I forget that the stove is hot?

I've got no words of wisdom to offer, but am watching this thread w/great interest to see what others have to say.

I'm there with you, FireSprite.

FireSprite

Self-forgiveness is definitely a huge struggle & I think yes, I am working my way through it as best I can.

I have (& will again) ponder if I owe any amends on my side which might be tied to the need for forgiveness, but I really have not turned up anything in this way that I haven't already tackled legitimately over the last several years. That's not to say every situation is resolved, just that I've done my best to make any necessary amends & be accountable for my parts in any dramas or dysfunctions. I can't control how others receive my info, I can just try to choose my words mindfully to make sure I'm being as clear & impeccable as possible on my side.

I am examining my entire thought process on this topic because while I think I've managed to get to forgiveness with people in the past, every situation I recall involves a person no longer in my life. So did I really forgive or was it just easier to move on because the offending person/situation was removed from my life?

I can't recall forgiving someone & actively continuing a relationship. I thought I forgave my father for his drinking & drugging years ago but in reality, I was a teen who didn't understand the "wrongs" I was forgiving & then he died pretty suddenly before I had the capacity to understand it all. So I didn't REALLY get to forgiveness until all these decades later & in such a roundabout way.

Everything I've read on forgiveness today keeps looping me back to grief. Something has to die in order for forgiveness to happen.

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2016...r-forgive-you/

2018LizAnon

Forgiveness is tough. I've tried to think of it like empathy, but then I always put the blame for everything on myself, and start to think that maybe if I just tried to see his point of view things would work out.

I think I'm feeling forgiveness now, which has coincided with a mental shift in finally feeling like I can let go of this whole relationship. I haven't been able to find forgiveness while this man has been in my life. Hard to forgive someone while they continue to hurt you. I like what trailmix posted about Oprah's thoughts on forgiveness. That seem's to ring true in my case.

trailmix

In thinking about this some more I keep coming back to boundaries.

If I say - well that happened! And I then choose what I'm going to do about it - remove the person from my life, decide it's not worth worrying about, ensuring it won't happen again (by being clear with the person that it's unacceptable) etc etc - those are my boundaries.

Now in the instances you are thinking of, where these people are no longer in your life, maybe that was your boundary.

An example for me is violence toward me. I was in a physically abusive relationship once, my first "serious" relationship in fact. I learned from that as one does.

So, my boundary is if you hit me that's it, done, maybe your fingers will get caught in the door as I slam it on my way out - not my problem.

Now I have no control over whether someone will actually hit me or attempt to, all I can do is learn that lesson and enforce my new boundary. What they did has nothing to do with me, it's about them.

Anyway, just a thought. I rarely think about forgiveness because really the above is my M.O. - this happened, this is my boundary.
(not to say that my boundary might not be wishy-washy sometimes - that's human but I take that in to consideration - that's my choice).

2018LizAnon

Thanks for sharing this atalose. It's a great way to think of it

Mango212

Many ways to look at all things. I love that you added the number 1478 on this title.

AnvilheadII

FS, are you comfortable stating what it is you struggle to forgive? the more clearly we can identify "the problem" the more clearly we can begin to see "the solution".

When <so and so> did <this> i felt <angry/hurt/resentful/scared>.

Does <so and so> continue to repeat the actions that <hurt> you or do others also behave the same way, which would "feel" the same inside? it could be possible that if the behaviors are still ongoing, that it isn't forgiveness you struggle with as much as it is a fight or flight response. and strong internal barometer signaling you to move to safer ground. we are not saints, smiling down the business end of a rifle after all.........

Wamama48

Great post Fire Sprite. Itooks like a lot of us are right there with you. I like to think of it as...forgivness does not mean you condone the behaviour or the person who hurt you.

I think most of us really want to forgive those that hurt us. Many of us may not know how to move through that process, some of us may still be too angry. I think all of us want to be happy and stop letting the anger, hurt and resentment steal our joy.

Personally, I'm no closer to forgiveness than I was a year ago when my RAH quit drinking and I began my recovery. I hate that, instead of getting help to deal with their problems, my mom and husband took the easy way out. They got to numb their pain, while causing damage to those around them.

Not all of the pain and personal issues I'm going through now is a direct cauae of my hurt and suffering. But the majority is. You don't go through 49 years of life living with alcoholics and come away unscathed. I'm furious that they got to escape their pain and selfishly give it to their families. The very core of my being was affected by that and I'm having to work through all of this crap that I never wanted.

I have very little empathy for them. Or myself. I also need to forgive myself for staying. A lot of it falls on me for staying with my RAH, a lot of this could have been avoided.
Honestly, I hate all alcoholics for the pain they cause. None of my feelings are right, I'm truly stuck in this anger and it's sucking away my happiness. But, right now that's how it is.

I'll be watching this thread too to see how others have forgiven someone.

trailmix

I think what LizAnon said "Hard to forgive someone while they continue to hurt you" applies in these instances.

I think it's bordering on impossible when you have reached your limit. There is a time of anger and/or resentment and I think that is there for a good reason. Before forgiving (or however you name it - compartmentalizing it, letting it go) the boundary needs to stop being tromped on.

I think also when the same boundary gets crossed - for instance if your Husband is treating you in a less than stellar way and your Mom was the same - old resentments can resurface and perhaps that's normal, that's the reminder of why you put those boundaries there in the first place.

Thanks for this thread FS, it's got me thinking today, I do ponder resentment from time to time as it comes up and I think that's a good thing to do.

biminiblue

Is the problem that it keeps coming up in your mind? Is that it? Because forgiving doesn't mean it goes away or that the hurt [memory] never comes up again.

So I just keep forgiving as many times as I need to. The quicker I can get there every time it comes up, the better. What I don't want to do is get into a pattern of ruminating over past hurts. Then that is stealing my present ability to see joy in my life. I say to myself, "Yep. Thanks brain. I've already forgiven that."

It's gonna come up. The memory of it doesn't go away but my ability to, "switch channels," gets better and faster with practice and I don't dwell in the yuck. The dwelling just would cause further pain.

I don't need to torture myself with my own thoughts.

I like this, too:

https://health.usnews.com/health-new...go-of-a-grudge

Surfbee

It took me many years to forgive others. People like my mum's stepdad... and other family members. I was a very angry teenager towards certain people.....

It took deaths and heartbreaks up to my 30s to understand that people are not inherently bad or evil. I think people mess up. People disappoint because they don't match the standards we set. And some people are just very disconnected and broken at various points in their lives.

Feeling superior over others, being self-righteous, and hateful... was the seed of resentment.... for me, life is too short to carry that kind of poison.

The first step in forgiving someone like my mum's stepdad was not to say "I forgive" (as I didn't genuinely feel that way) ... but instead said "I would like to forgive - at some point - for the sake of my own wellbeing " or "I am willing to forgive" ... I think just wanting to forgive is a huge step... And in time you notice anger and resentment fading.

I've also found it difficult to let go of my anger and pain for fear of me letting certain people down ... for fear of me seeming like some kind of fool to be taken advantage of ... good lessons here... but more seeds for resentment.

Our pain will always be in our memories so I figured I might as well live with it in a way that serves me. For me it's kinder to say "thank you pain for everything you taught me... I appreciate you when I remember you" ....

And in time the memories become something to honour whenever it's remembered ... but with appreciation, and even for the person who caused it... because it helped me understand humanity. And reminded me again that not one person on this planet is evil. People are simply broken at particular points in their lives... Everyone has their battles. Remembering this makes it easier to reach for forgiveness.

hopeful4

You are so right, forgiveness is for YOU. However, it is so hard. I forgive, then pick up the resentment again later, and forgive again. I have come to a place that it's easier, and journaling really helps me. I journal to remind myself WHY I am forgiving. And of course, seeing my signature line here day in and day out reminds me as well. It's a process, and it's not a straight line.

Be easy on yourself friend, you have went through a lot and you have done amazing work on yourself, and you are an amazing mom to your DD!

Take good care of you!!!

FireSprite

So much to respond to...

I keep coming back to this imagery.... and I kinda feel like there are times through this process when I am still tightly gripping the hot stove, feeling the burn & having to lift one finger off at a time - the longer it goes on, my own resistance to letting go is increasing the pain & scarring.

Yes, definitely this applies a lot of the time in my past experiences. In my mental sifting & sorting I can absolutely see that I cutting contact was necessary & then working through the process of forgiveness was after-the-fact & one sided. Providing my own closure because new contact would create inevitable new hurts.

I'm not uncomfortable sharing the details, but I do like keeping it general/relatable for the sake of conversation because it's really the same stuff we all deal with all the time, in varying details.

Aha, well spotted - but in reverse.

After a lot of examination (prior to posting this thread) I am clear that this is not at all Fight/Flight related (although, in a twisted way, I can see how withholding forgiveness is way of keeping myself trapped in that vicious cycle). Beyond the thought process not lining up to F or F, neither is my body's response, in any way.

For all intents & purposes it seems that my husband is making a very conscious & concerted effort at change. I've spent 7 months observing & giving myself permission to not make any decisions until I'm ready. I can't deny that there is a lot of forward progress in a lot of ways, accountability that wasn't there before & true amends not only spoken but via actions & changing behaviors.

That isn't what I had factored in though. I've been marching pretty steadily, albeit slowly, toward divorce for a long time now.

What would it take to change gears now? A wholly new look at forgiveness & what that means to me in relation to him & our past & future. Can someone change that much? Of course they can - anvil's story alone speaks to that..... but do *I* even know what it takes to actually forgive & continue building a relationship after the mountains of lies, manipulations & correlated BS?

I don't know because I get down to the core definition of forgiveness for me & there's not a lot there - not much in the way of modeled behavior or life experience to draw from. Sure - I get it on a basic level. I can easily forgive some jerk for cutting me off in traffic or forgetting an appointment or whatever. Simple forgiveness is easy. It feels like a gigantic leap between that & the types of things we are trying to forgive as family members exposed to such damaging & hurtful & often purposeful choices made by people we love. Holding back forgiveness or cutting the contact between us seems like an easier way to defend myself emotionally.

Of course, who wants to move forward in life like that? Not me. It colors the way I believe & trust in everyone, not just the offending parties. Not fair. Not a fun toxic mind-stew to live in either. This is part of where codies sour on life & become more difficult to live with than the addicts/dysfunctional person themselves..... we sometimes carry it forward & hold it against all of humanity, IMO, in what I've observed...... That's where I see that ultimately, I'm burning myself with this either consciously (by choosing to dredge up old hurts) or subconsciously (by letting it color the world around me).

There is NO point at which he or I can point to & say - there! that's the moment when I can trust it's all Right Again & I can believe & all that yada yada. But there does come a point in time on my side where I have to believe enough or I need to have the balls to just walk away.

Yep - me too. I'm afraid that if I don't deal with this now, it's going to surge back up like molten, hot lava in the form of unresolved resentments/some need for vengeance.

I do disagree on the "easy way out" part though - I did feel that way for a long time but now I see that they are/were really, really broken & lost & living in their own personal hell. It just didn't seem that way in my perception.

Yeah... and no. I take myself everywhere I go & I was an unholy hot mess when I finally surrendered to recovery. No matter what road brought me here, I am an undoubtedly a better, stronger person for it. I don't even really identify my husband as an alcoholic but if HE hadn't identified in this way at some point, I would never have reached for resources to manage my life. My childhood ACoA damage is far, far more deep seated & in need of change than anything that developed over the course of my marriage. I'm actually very, very grateful to him for providing me with the contrast I needed to grow.

That's another of his changes - being better able to sit with me through FOO triggers & separate what's happening on the surface vs. the bigger, deeper problem rumbling underneath the surface.

Thankfully, it's not this at all. I get no satisfaction out of superiority in any way & never have. I seek common ground in all relationships, across the board. It's a big part of how I have always grown as a person - exposing myself to all kinds of people with differing ideas & backgrounds. Resentment for me is always tied to the feeling of having been wronged & wanting to protect myself against that same future pain.


I know there's more, but I have some appts & wil check back in later this afternoon.

Thanks to ALL of you for these great thoughts..... so much to think through......