soberFitness

Hello all

I have been reading the original Rational Recovery book, the AVRT stickies, and using AVRT to stay sober.

I have a Big Plan.

I am having trouble grasping at the concept of making a one time permanent decision. Not because I don’t want to, but because that seems logically impossible.
I can’t make a choice for a year from now, just as I can’t go for a job one year from now. I can plan to go for a jog one year from today’s but when that day comes, I have to choose to stick by my plan.

Live is only lived one day at a time.
I am not disparaging AVRT or permanent recovery
I’m asking how to get it...
I want a final, permanent decision

But it doesn’t feel like my AV is preventing me from a future choice
It feels like simply the laws of reality/physics

That I can make a Big Plan
But then I have to use AVRT one day at a time

I don’t understand the permanence aspect
It’s impossible to guarantee anything in life

Please help!

Wholesome

How is it physically possible to make a permanent future decision?

That's where the part about never changing your mind comes in.

I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind. No matter what.

There's no wiggle room there. I love it because of its simplicity.

Dee74

In the same way I can make a commitment today to never rob a bank, I can make a commitment to never drinking again

D

wildflower70

Seems pretty logical to me, I dislike certain foods and liquids, so I can say I will never consume them...ever. Liver and onions, cows milk, pumpkin pie, iced tea.

I could go on and on.....I don't like it, I'm not having it. I don't like booze...guess what? Yep, not having it!

Guener

Well, I think the only physics involved is whether or not you bring that drink to your mouth or not.

But I do understand the hesitation about making a promise that you worry that you cannot keep, especially when it comes to others. What happens if I fail that commitment, is it a moral transgression? Do I evaluate myself as a failure or the idea of NEVER doing something again as unreasonable? I have some trouble with wholly black and white standards, but not all, and is this one of those things that is a hard line that I will not cross?

Maybe some day I will be able to assuredly state that I will never drink again. Today I'm sure I'm not going to drink. I have not drinking ever again as my ideal that I strive toward, and it's a pretty simple one (as has been said here) to follow. I just will not drink. Somebody recently wrote that it was an achievement to say now with confidence, "I don't drink" from a place of "I cannot drink". That's where I'm aspiring to be.

So, in that sense it does become a moral choice for the day, for me, as it affirms values that I esteem. Our reality is not just the physical laws that we cannot break, like getting sick after drinking does to me, it is also our perception and our actions that form a basis for living in a way that reality doesn't bite.

I'm rambling a bit, sorry, but I'm still working through a lot myself.

fini

if you were to consider getting married....on that day, do you say well, that decision is good for today, but i cannot promise for a year from now?
it’s not a true equivalent, as there is another person involved, but the concept of making a decision for the future is the same.
i get your questioning without it meaning you have a hesitation about what you want and what you plan. and yes, life is one day at a time. and yes, my intention is for lifelong sobriety.
and just to throw another wrench into this, or open another can of wiggly worms: occasionally someone had a big plan, went back to drinking and said they had changed their mind.
and then others will come along and say this shows that the person had not, in fact, made a Big Plan, as it is impossible to drink again once you have made a BP.
round and round we go

Free2bme888

Thinking it
Saying it
Writing it
Visualizing it (situations enjoyed happy without alcohol in the future)
Passage of time (⬆️Sober muscle)

All these help to solidify your stance, imho😊

Glad your posting

Wholesome

I'd also like to point out that it's only the AV that resists the notion of never drinking again. If alcohol is ruining your life the way it was ruining mine, then eliminating it permanently is the most logical and simplistic solution, with all kinds of foreseen and unforeseen benefits. Only the addicted side of you would cling to the hope of drinking again, or fill you with disbelief that a Big Plan is indeed possible.

Every single person who has ever quit drinking had to actually quit drinking by never drinking again.

My BP is so solid that when I read Dee's post (not to pick on Dee) I thought, "I might get desperate enough to rob a bank. I mean hey you never know? But nothing would make me desperate enough to drink."

The AV loves to use the future against us. You might be safe now, but you won't always be. I'll get you later! IT tries to grind you down and undermine your confidence that way, but making sure that the drinking is never really over. The reality is that we are always experiencing our lives in the present moment so all we can deal with is today. Obviously no one has a crystal ball so the future is a mystery, all I know is that my future plan is to never drink again. No matter what. Situation by situation, moment by moment, day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year, my plan is permanently to never drink again.

biminiblue

Life is a Great Mystery and there are many contradictions.

I figure if I just keep doing the next right thing I won't ever pick up a drink again. Nor rob a bank. Nor kick a puppy. Nor sleep with my friend's husband.

DriGuy

Hear Hear!

I will never drink again is my plan. I also have a high degree of confidence that this will eventually be proven as fact. If that proves not to be true, so what? I doesn't mean that I can't pick myself up and start over again. It doesn't mean I have broken a law, committed an act of immorality, or have been unethical. I would just have been wrong. Is someone going to sue me or point their finger at me and laugh? I would have been mistaken. There was no flaw in my plan. It's still a good plan.

I refuse to say I might someday drink again. I don't want that option as part of the plan. I don't want that to be a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't want to leave that door open. I'd rather be wrong and take the lumps and the responsibility for my mistake. Granted it would be a bad mistake, even a horrible mistake.

I suppose we make an issue about confusing a "plan" with an "ultimate truth," but that's not an issue for me. I'm sticking with the plan.

BlueAngus

Boom.

Thanks.

fini

hey soberFitness,
a little puzzling when you ask for help and then don’t show up again...you out there?

soberFitness

Thank you for the answers everyone

This helps a lot to hear everyone’s thoughts on how they mentally frame this
Still, for me, I will have to keep trying to figure out how to confidently believe that a decision is permanent
I think that feeling will get stronger as I continue to successfully use AVRT and abstain
Just passed 40 days!

dwtbd

Sometimes you have go a little Mr. Miyagi , " wax on , wax off , paint the fence, both sides danielson?" " this doesnt feel like karate"

A Big Plan in AVRT is "I will never drink again and I will never change my mind" , in Addictive Voice Recognition Technique we scan our thoughts for those of future drinking and doubt in our ability to abstain.And then recognize those thoughts as coming from an alien ego , assign them to It and ignore and refuse to act on them, yeah ?

The idea that a BP is semi or quasi permanent is pure AV. Using AVRT we are able to identify and separate from it .

Is the question of permanence being attainable the crux, or the idea of permanent abstinence ? and who or what is uncomfortable with which ?

soberFitness

This is a great point
Because for me
It’s easier to separate out AV when it comes to desire to drink
I can clearly feel I want Abstinence and any feeling against is easily recognized as not me

The attainability of permanence is what is harder to refute

fini

ah; i misunderstood.
i had understood you to be saying that what is problematic for you is the concept of a decision that is permanent.

Ken33xx

I tell myself I am not drinking today. Forget tomorrow. I am not drinking just for today.

I can instinctively grasp this concept and it has served me well over the years.

dwtbd

Whatever works , yeah ?

That wouldn't work for me , I'd wear myself down deciding everyday, the implication is I'd have the option tomorrow , why wait.

Eddiebuckle

My sponsor said it this way: "Don't ever forget your last drink, or chances are you haven't had it yet."

MindfulMan

For me the longer I don't drink the less I have to worry about it.

I'm going through a bit of pain right now. My darling rottie pup, 7 years old, was just diagnosed yesterday with lymphoma. For various reasons I'm not doing chemo, sticking to prednisone which will ease his symptoms, but will do nothing to address the underlying issues. Otto will be gone within two months, at most, and I suspect a lot sooner.

I was texting back and forth to a dear friend who knows I've stopped drinking and has dealt with friends and family in recovery for years. She's also a professor of veterinary medicine. I told her what was going on and she gave me some advice, then texted back "Do you think you need to go to a meeting?"

I was kind of flabbergasted. It's a legitimate question, but to be perfectly honest, in the entire two days of dealing with getting Otto to the vet, anticipating and receiving a fatal diagnosis, and deciding how to treat/not treat, essentially he's in hospice, not once, for a split second, did it cross my mind that I wanted to drink.

I'm 20 months sober and don't do meetings, but I'm not averse to going if I feel like I needed to, but seriously, I'm over it. And if I ever was going to crave a drink, it was yesterday. The only reason why it even crossed my mind was because she brought it up.

I kinda came at AVRT sideways. I didn't use a Big Plan to get sober. In my first 5 weeks of sobriety, in a 12 Step based inpatient rehab, it was like a switch flipped. I don't have to negotiate with alcohol, I don't have to moderate, I don't have to care if I'm around other people drinking. I'm simply no longer a drinker. Period. After I got through rehab I read about RR/AVRT and was like...this make sense. It put a name to what I'd already done.

I did a course of outpatient rehab that cemented some cognitive tools around cravings, and have been in psychotherapy for life issues as well. But as far as sobriety goes, it was really just insurance. I'd already decided that I was no longer going to drink, ever, for any reason. Once I made that choice, sobriety has actually been pretty easy and has mostly been a time of brain rewiring from years of abuse.

I thought through what it would be like to drink to numb my feelings. Sure. A few hours away from my feelings and into oblivion. But then what? Hangover, withdrawal, regret, and Otto would still be dying. And the drunk feeling? Sounds disgusting to me, even a mild buzz. Why would I want that?

I can't imagine having alcohol in my life again.