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Hi friends,

I've been thinking a lot lately about this subject. Many people here are at, or were at in the past, the point of giving the A in their life an ultimatum which usually is some version of: stop drinking, commit to recovery or I'll leave.

My feeling on any ultimatum is don't bother. If you have to say "Do (or don't do) X or I'll leave" that means X has already occurred countless times so what is gained by waiting for one more X? A little time? I guess sometimes we just need more time.

I wonder what everyone else thinks about this. For the alcoholics here who have found long-term sobriety: did an ultimatum help? Or if it didn't happen in your experience, do you think it *could* help?

For those who gave ultimatums: what was the result?

Happy New Year to all!

resolute50

Ultimatum. Some alcoholics drink till death even after finding out if they stop they'll be ok. It's up to the alcoholic, not the circumstances.

ErinGoBragh

I never gave an ultimatum because I knew it wouldn't stop my AH from drinking. However, two days before I left I told him I was leaving because of his drinking.

He was found dead in January 2015. Drank himself to death.

trailmix

It's a good question and I'm afraid I don't have much experience with this.

I don't think I have ever given an adult an ultimatum.

I guess that kind of answers where i'm at about that lol - ultimatums are about power and consequences. The only time they are appropriate, in my opinion, is with children and perhaps in a work environment where there must be some consequence for - whatever the wrongdoing is.

I can absolutely see discussing it with the other person. For example - I can't go on living here if you are going to continue to drink. That's a statement of intent, which I think is different from if you don't DO this I am going to do THAT. One is telling them what they must do and the consequences, the other is stating what you are going to do.

suki44883

Ultimatums very rarely work. You cannot change another person unless they want to change. Boundaries are necessary, however. There is a difference.

least

My one daughter gave me an ultimatum - stop drinking or she'd live with her dad. She never followed thru with it and I didn't stop drinking until I wanted to stop.

PeacefulWater12

No, us alcoholics drink until we are ready to stop.

Wamama48

Four years ago I asked my husband to leave. I was done with his drinking. He did leave, two weeks later we agreed he would come back if he cut down to 6 beers or less a day. He did, for about 5 months (yep, I kept count. I can laugh about that now. Kinda.)

One year ago I told him I was done, quit drinking or I'm leaving. I had a partial plan put together so my boys and I could move out. Actually I was done either way, I didn't really care if he stopped or not.

A few days later he had his last beer, and I was still trying to piece things together to leave, which proved very difficult with a one day a week job and two boys with Autism who needed extra care.

We have talked about why he quit this time, but not the first time I asked him to leave. He said the first time he wasn't ready to quit. He was scared to lose his family, but at the same time, even in his constant state of drunken stupor, he sensed I wouldn't really leave. He was right. Like he wasn't ready to quit, I wanted to leave, but wasn't 100% at the end of my rope yet. I was 99% there.

This last time he said there were three factors involved.

(1) He noticed he wasn't able to keep it at 9-12 beers a night. Within six months he spiraled downward and was drinking 18-24 beers a night. He wasn't starting his drinking around 5 pm anymore, he was starting earlier and earlier, as early as 1 pm. That scared him.

(2) The second factor was he knew for sure he was going to lose his family. He said he could tell I was really done, and he didn't want to lose his wife and boys.

(3) A few days after I told him I was leaving, he got the flu. He couldn't keep anything down, even beer. He said after three days his brain felt less foggy, and for the first time he could see what he was doing to his family. Since he had already gone 3 days without beer, he decided to stop then. I can't believe he didn't have a seizure or other serious issue stopping like that! He was as sick as I'd ever seen him in 20 years of marriage, but I couldn't tell withdraw from flu symptoms.

So in a way, my ultimatum worked. HOWEVER, if deep down in his heart he wasn't ready to quit, I don't think he would have. He said the ultimatum was the one that slapped him upside the head and had the most impact, but there were three things involved in him deciding to quit. The ultimatum was only one of those.

Awal

Ultimatums = control. It is impossible to control an alcoholic.

FeelingGreat

I don't think there's any harm is declaring your intentions, but they have to be certain, not a threat. You have to follow through of you've just lost what little power you might have.

OpheliaKatz

If the ultimatum is because you want the addict to stop drinking, it won't work and that's about trying to control an adult who is supposed to control him/herself.

If the ultimatum is about what you can/can't tolerate, and you follow through with no contact in order to protect yourself when your boundaries are violated, that is about your own recovery from a toxic relationship.

If a codependent says, "I can't take this stress anymore, if you don't get into a recovery program by next week, I will leave you," that is about the codependent's boundaries, which is about protecting the codependent, not making the addict sober. However if there is never any follow-through and the codependent keeps saying there will be consequences, but there are never consequences, that is about trying to manipulate an addict into sobriety.

Codependents should do what they need to do to protect their health, their finances, and their child or elderly dependents.

DriGuy

For some reason that I'm not even sure of (I'm open to arguments here), I want to say if you have to issue an ultimatum, especially if you are ready to stand by it, the relationship is already over. Or to put it another way, if things are really that bad and you are ready to leave, you ought to just leave.

A normal person doesn't just go around issuing ultimatums. There are certain behaviors that partners need to understand early on that are unacceptable. I'm talking about behaviors that most morons would understand as unacceptable, like abuse or infidelity. These are ultimatum worthy. Putting down the toilet seat, not so much.

Ultimatums I would reserve for the traditional non-starters in a relationship, the things that were apparently kept hidden because a partner knows they are unacceptable.

I'm not very sure about this, however. It's possible that one partner may grow up, or change the goal posts of acceptable behavior for legitimate reasons, catching the other by surprise. Ordinarily, I would just tell my partner I'm leaving because they do "X". If they decide they want to change on their own, I would agree to discuss it after they made the change, but I would most likely be gone by that time, and I wouldn't guarantee that I would take them back even if they changed.

If control of another person requires an ultimatum, something is seriously wrong in the relationship. I'm not sure it's going to be worth salvaging. Having written this, I'm starting to think there may not be such hard fast rules. Unworkable parts of relationships might need to be assessed on a case by case basis to determine if ultimatums are called for.

August252015

^^^That.

For me, it was my parents and they never followed through on ultimatums, which I knew they wouldn't....or was just willing to take the risk they wouldn't because I wanted to keep drinking.

So, ultimately - my answer to that is no, at least not permanently. I had to do it for myself - and people I hear share that they did receive some kind of ultimatum might have stopped at FIRST because of it, but only stayed sober bc they realized it was only sustainable if they wanted it.

All my parents could do was decide what they were willing to live with in me, and believe that I could indeed finally choose sobriety- and living.

totfit

I think an ultimatum should only be done when you are done with them. It would be at the point that you cannot or will not tolerate the behavior "or" you are leaving or they are leaving, etc. If one is at this point the other person should be made aware. Then the ball is in their court. An ultimatum should not be a "threat", but rather a reality of what will occur.

DriGuy

I remember the occasional "ultimatumee" (I had to make up a word), saying they only came to AA because they were court ordered, but decided to quit for good once they had a taste of sobriety. They were exceptions, however. Most court ordered members didn't last long or built their own metaphorical "revolving doors" in and out of the program.

I'm thinking those that were court or family ordered, but found a better life in sobriety, had been processing their own dysfunctional condition for quite some time and were predisposed to a welcomed change when they showed up in AA. I'm guessing some of them were about to make the change on their own without an ultimatum.

biminiblue

I've never been given an ultimatum. No one ever discussed my drinking with me.

I have issued ultimatums in relationships. They didn't work and I had to leave.

I think expressing the reason why it's all falling apart for me is important. It means I've stated the reason, and given an opportunity for debate. How that plays out in the next month or two would determine my next move. I've never had an ultimatum work, but I feel like I have given them a chance and I've been honest. I was ready and able to leave and I did. I agree that it is a come to Jesus moment, though. Last resort.

schnappi99

Its easy to make an ultimatum manipulative which is less skillful I think, even moreso if you're not ready to follow thru. I did that to my wife in her humiliation when the booze and drugs all came out, complete with the pointing finger- its not a good look.

Nowadays after a lot of steady alanon I can phrase the same terms in a boundary- a return to the old behavior means either she leaves or I leave with our daughter, no compromises and damn the consequences, relationship over. The prospect is scary but living with addiction is lots worse I will not go back if I have a choice.

Sometimes I wonder if we're staying together in no small part because of our daughter- I can totally see how 20yr marriages fall apart. Over the last 15 or so years, including the alcohol abuse years, communication and all forms of intimacy have nearly disappeared, some completely. As a classic alanon I have pushed, cajoled, manipulated gone to marriage counseling, and having been in program, now I can peacefully let her have the space and distance she chooses to have and be more or less OK with it. Clearly I have my part, going to a shrink in January to maybe find out more of my stuff and clean it up.

In the current state of affairs when our daughter leaves home I don't see much of a reason to be together. My parents divorced when I was 17, which could be part of this, but I sure don't want to impose the same thing on my daughter while she's still at home.

OpheliaKatz

I agree that things like having the toilet seat up is not ultimatum-worthy, but addiction, affairs or abuse put enough strain on the relationship that if any of those things are happening in your relationship, you may be/ have been on the receiving end of an ultimatum or have "issued" one. It's really a "this is happening, we're really in trouble now if this behavior keeps going on." There are some relationships that actually survive all three of those things because the addict or perpetrator or adulterer (sorry, I know this is not flattering to list "addict" with those two other words) decides to change (for themselves), and thus the "ultimatum" was never followed-through. But more likely, if you're saying enough is enough, it's fair warning that you're really unhappy.

If you're telling them what you're going to do because you want THEM to change, that's control. Not a great way to be in a relationship.

However, I have heard people say, "you had better stop drink driving or I'll have to leave with the kids," and I think if someone is saying that, they are really just thinking of the safety of the children... and they do want the addict to change because they want the children to have a safe relationship with both their parents. So I wouldn't call that trying to control the addict, but rather trying to control the situation, which is uncontrollable anyway.

NYCDoglvr

I was never have been given one while I drank but it wouldn't have worked anyway. I only quit when I was ready, not for anyone else.

ladyscribbler

None of mine ever did. They were part of an unworkable "solution" to my unmanageable life with an alcoholic. My version of quacking. Repeated threats to leave (rarely and only temporarily followed through). All in the hopes that he would be motivated to stop drinking so that "our" life could be easier.

Except for a brief period of enforced abstinence so that he could get a certificate for visitation, he's been drinking uninterrupted for the past decade. After I (finally-it took me waay too long) left he structured his life so that he could do just that.

During the five years we were together, nothing ever improved because I made empty threats. It just ended up with a lot of fighting and frustration. I was trying to force my solution for a happy life onto him.

In the five years since I left, I've bought a little house that I'm fixing up and just finished my MA in English (graduated in December). Putting that energy toward me really paid off. Imagine if I had wasted it being upset about someone else's drinking.

Actually I just watched someone lose their job due to alcoholism- drinking at work, missing tons of days/hours etc. It was sad, but this person had more than one ultimatum issued, was given way more chances than one would get at an "ordinary" job.