sedasa

Hi All,

As a Codependent who is at the very beginning of the recovery I have been thinking about "you can't save an alcoholic until they want to save themselves" a lot. My question is if an Alcoholic;
- has a mental health issue as the primary diagnosis and alcohol addiction (drinking for 26 years) as the secondary diagnosis
- using alcohol together with his prescribed medication (say, some days 2 bottles of wine a day + 20mg valium or 2.5 - 3 bottles of wine a day if valium runs out)
- was almost dying due to alcohol withdrawal in the past so really scared of having a withdrawal again
- doesn't want to go to rehab and thinks he can fix the problem on his own
- doesn't have many people left in his life due to his addiction problem and under financial stress since he is not employable (either getting rejected or being fired due to addiction)

Do you think this person would ever want to save himself given that his brain is far from being able to make healthy choices due to mental health issue & alcohol abuse? Or can he ever be saved in some way?

Thank you.

honeypig

sedasa--no, I don't know if a person in that situation would ever want to save himself or not. I don't know that there is any way for you to ever know the answer to that question.

Now a question for you: Do you think that someone else would ever be able to save someone who doesn't want to save himself?

And a second part to that: What exactly do you mean by "save"? Stop him from drinking? Make him start to act in the way you think he should act? What would "saving" this person look like? Think it through in detail.

I appreciate that you are in a hard place, assuming that the person you are posting about is someone you are involved with in some way. My question for you isn't intended in a mean tone. However, it IS something I think you should consider. Have you read the thread titled "The Bridge"? It's long-winded but might be helpful for you.

Seren

Sounds a bit like my stepson.

Unless and until he wants to stop and...

...as long as authorities do not believe him to be a danger to himself or others (aka he does not meet the criteria to have "the system" take over his care) ....

The only thing his sister and brothers and I can do is encourage him to do the next right thing. Talk to him as we can - except now he is being abusive and vile on the phone. Tell him we love his when we can.

Mango212

Sounds like many stories I've heard from people in recovery.

On the friends & family side, how many reach a point where we're finally ready to reach out and do whatever it takes for our own recovery?

One day at a time.

sedasa

This is my ex-boyfriend who was found dead on the street a week after I broke up with him. I have started to visit a therapist 2 weeks ago to start working on my codependency and this forum has helped me a lot when dealing with the grief.
One of the things I have been coming across is "addicts stop drinking only when they want" (by "saving" I mean "stopping drinking") and after spending a year with an addict who self-destructed himself, I understand this statement and I agree.
But what if their mental health is preventing them from deciding to stop drinking? Should they be considered as "lost cause"?

Mango212

Recovery and these diseases are all illogical. I pray for strength to embrace the illogical.

Guener

As somebody that has a dual-diagnosis and who has lost a brother to addiction in the same circumstances, I have to say that the answer is heavily weight to "no".

MCESaint

Sedasa: The answer to your question is a firm and definite "maybe." Nobody can predict the future.

One thing for certain, however, is that if he has mental health issues that require treatment and, especially, medication - it's a tough, tough, tough slog for him.

Is it *possible* he can "be saved" (i.e., recover)?? Well, yes - it's *possible*. It's *possible* that a horse going off to race at 99::1 odds could win the race too.

Rent the movie a "Beautiful Mind" - and you'll see that it's possible for a schizophrenic to find his way out of a house of mirrors and delusions without being fully medicated.

So, yes -- just about anything is *possible* with this disease. Good or bad.

But ---- is it *probable.* That is, is it *likely* that he will recover so long as his mental health issues aren't being addressed professionally?? My gut says no.

My AW has a "dual-diagnosis" of bi-polar along with some other things.

Her "self-attempts" to get sober without addressing these mental health issues was unsuccessful.

Her addressing her mental health issues without being sober were also unsuccessful.

When she stays on the mental health meds, keeps seeing her counselors, stays sober, goes to AA meetings, etc. -- she is a wonderful person.

But the combo is needed for her.

Best of luck.

MCE Saint

honeypig

sedasa, I feel for the terrible place you are in. But I'd repeat my question--how exactly would this person be "saved"? By committing him to a mental institution? How else could you force him to stop drinking? Is that kind of life what he would want, or for that matter, what you would want for him?

I don't know about considering anyone a "lost cause" or not--I just get stuck at the logistics of how I'd make anyone do something he did not want to do. I am really and truly powerless over another person--unless and until he is incarcerated or committed, and even then, I only have physical control, which will end the second he's out on the street again.

Right now, my XAH is starting the downhill slide w/his health that will eventually end in death. For now, it's "only" high blood pressure, vitamin deficiencies, and early-stage COPD. But there is not a damn thing I can do to change it--if he'd put 1/10th the effort into quitting drinking that he put into hiding and lying about it for 20+ years, he'd have many happy and productive years of sobriety, or so I believe. But that wasn't what he did. Is he happy w/his choice? I can't really say. But it remains HIS choice not to seek treatment or any sort of help at all. And I have no choice but to accept that.

biminiblue

The problem with this particular man is that HE didn't want to change things.

HE could have found help for his alcoholism, his drug habit and for his mental health problems. It doesn't matter which came first, the solution was always abstaining and HE wasn't there yet. The valium and alcohol together would have been enough to kill him. Even moderate amounts of alcohol mixed with valium can be deadly.

I am an alcoholic in recovery and I can say that many if not most alcoholics have mental health problems. Some were pre-existing and some are created by applying a toxin to the human nervous system over time.

It doesn't matter for your BF. He did what he did, he created the mess and then made it worse. He probably didn't believe anything bad would happen when he first started mixing the pills and booze, but like so many other alcoholics trying to find that happy place - he overdid it.

Codependents learn this stuff at their parents' knee. It took time to unravel all the dysfunctional thinking I had when I tried to rescue people.

Each person is on their own path. I had to learn to stay on mine.

DriGuy

I don't think "lost cause" is a medical prognosis. I think I've heard that type of prognosis referred to as "grim." "Lost cause" has an unwarranted finality about it.

Knowing what his mental health diagnosis was might help readers reach a consensus. If he was out of touch with reality, then yeah, it's grim, because he might not have been capable of reason.

But I think what is happening here is that we are avoiding the issue, which is that you are the one seeing the therapist. Unless you shot him dead, you have no reason to blame yourself for this. If you are seeing the therapist for some other reason connected to his death, you would have to decide if you wanted to share that here.

As it stands right now, you are not responsible for what happened. You were apparently involved in his life, so it's natural to question yourself, but irrational to assume blame. People with at risk profiles kill themselves, and In the 5 situations where my AA group lost members that way, they all came as surprises. I even questioned my role in one of them, until another member assured me I had nothing to do with it.

FallenAngelina

More and more research shows that compromised mental health and alcoholism commonly exist in the same person. Clearly, people with both do seek recovery, so nobody can be considered a lost cause. However, honeypig's question is paramount: What is "saved?" Stopping the drink is just the first step in the veeeeeery long road that is recovery. Is it possible for a loved one to escort (save) an alcoholic along the entire road of recovery? No. You may very well have been able to "save" your BF from drinking for one day, one week, one month, but the road to recovery was always only his to choose - or not. We cannot "save" anyone into life long recovery.

sedasa

He was diagnosed with Generalised Anxiety Disorder, Panic Disorder and Agoraphobia. In addition to Valium he had been prescribed meds such as gabapentin, effexor, celexa, seroquel (he was on Valium on going basis) for his mental health issues.
He never stopped drinking while trying these meds and was claiming that other than (high dosage of) valium none of the meds he had tried worked for him.
When his drinking issue was pointed out, he would say "no doctor had diagnosed him with alcohol addiction as the primary diagnosis".
In August I talked him into checking into a Dual-Diagnosis Rehab. After 2 days he discharged himself. He said when he was going through alcohol withdrawal, the doctor at the rehab gave him lower dosage of Ativan than what he needed to get through the withdrawal and he ended up being taken to the ER.
After that experience he said he would detox himself as he had done it many times in the past but ended up losing it completely.
I acknowledge that I am codependent and I know that I enabled him as I was supporting him financially. But I also don't really know what the alternative approach should have been towards a person in his situation.

trailmix

Drugs that are prescribed don't work as they should when mixed with alcohol and in some cases don't work at all.

I guess that isn't really surprising since mixing drugs together without being a pharmacist and using them not as they are intended is a crap shoot.

Are you feeling guilty? You know you didn't Cause it, couldn't Control it and certainly couldn't Cure it. His choices were his own. Many, many alcoholics have anxiety and depression (I'm sure you have read the Alcoholics and newcomers forums, so you have seen this mentioned over and over).

People self-medicate, that's a fact. Some people end up as alcoholics or addicted to some other drug, that's a fact. It's a sad fact, but a fact none-the-less.

So you supported him financially. I'm sure you were attempting to keep him from the streets, at the very least. It's a well intended thing to do. Don't think that your "enabling" him caused him to die. He made choices, he could have chosen to stay in rehab, he chose not to.

It's a tragedy, it would have been great if he had chosen recovery but he did not, for whatever reason, even if that was due to other mental health issues. You can't force a person to accept help.

The alternative is to detach yourself from the person. To let them fly on their own and take responsibility for themselves. You don't support them financially, you don't coddle them, you don't clean up after them, you don't call in to work for them when they are too hung over to go etc.

trailmix

Also, one fact that is often over-looked, because it seems counter-intuitive is some people live their whole lives as alcoholics or addicted to other drugs.

That's a fact as well.

Some never, ever choose recovery, they don't want to stop drinking (or using their drug of choice).

biminiblue

I think your work here sardesa is to uncover in therapy the reason(s) why you felt a need to try to fix this man. "Love" isn't this.

This thing you were doing is deeper and more dangerous and for me I had to figure out why I did it. My choices in men continued to be bad as the years went by and I tried harder and harder to change them. I just had to be smarter and know more and have the right words, blah blah blah.

It never worked. Not one time. I finally stopped.

I had to sort it out so next time the red flags waved I'd see them as fire, not roses. I'm guessing you saw the danger signs and kept going instead of getting out? That's what I had to work on.

DriGuy

There is nothing there that makes you responsible for the outcome. It would probably be personally healthy for you to back off the codependency. In most cases it's assumed to be best for both partners.

But these kinds of deaths are usually surprises, sometimes a person might be going through a hard time, but seldom do we actually expect them to kill themselves, and from my limited experience, they are more surprising than predictable.

Throw in alcohol, drugs, and mental disorders, and it's hard to know what will happen. I'd allow myself to grieve, but not to self blame in this case.

Wamama48

I'm in that same boat that I worry might end the same way. My alcoholic sister has a tramatic brain injury (she functions at the level of a 16 year old) and a mental health issue that she refuses to addteess. She won't stay on her meds.

She was court ordered to go to rehab for hitting a police officer. She left after 1 day. Her boyfriend is leaving her, I cut contact with her, and my dad won't talk to her. She has tried to commit suicide several times.

I can empathise with how you felt. I'm pretty sure my sister will do the same as your ebf. It is tragic, not being able to help. I've learned I can't save her, but I can save me. I'm at least as important as her. So I will save me, even if it hurts. I do have that power.

I can say I'm sorry your xbf died. It doesn't help much. You're feelings about it are your feelings, you are entitled to have them. They are not wrong. I'm glad you are getting help, you deserve to feel better.

Coldfusion

In my six years on SoberRecovery, I have read of many sad situations. But one thing stands out in making these situations worse, and that's benzodiazepine addiction. The OP stated her boyfriend was using Valium for anxiety, panic and agoraphobia--and these are exactly the symptoms of benzodiazepine addiction.

I have a dual diagnosis, and from my experience nothing made my behavior more unpredictable and erratic than combining alcohol and a benzodiazepine (Ativan in my case). The OP states that it was an issue with Ativan that caused her boyfriend to leave rehab.

I fault the medical profession for giving out these medications so freely, and prescribing them for long-term use.

sedasa

Exactly. I thought if I gave him a healthy, supportive environment and the love he needed much he could be fixed. There was an inner voice telling me to stop but I chose not to stop till the very end - till there was literally nothing left to do. Now he is ash and dust in a box at his ex-wife's house.
I have a massive amount of inner work to do. My therapist told me to read Codependent no more. Every page of the book is like a slap on my face.