Is or was, my ex, my H, my W, my partner abusive because they are alcoholics?
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Is or was, my ex, my H, my W, my partner abusive because they are alcoholics?
I think this is an important topic to discuss. I know many people come here to find out why their partner or spouses behavior changed. I think some people come here hoping that it is because of alcohol, and if that person stopped drinking, then everything would be fine.
In my marriage my ex was abusive with or without drinking. I do think they are 2 separate things.
What are your views?
((((((hugs))))))
amy
In my marriage my ex was abusive with or without drinking. I do think they are 2 separate things.
What are your views?
((((((hugs))))))
amy
Last edited by amy55; 10-01-2018 at 09:50 PM. Reason: spelling
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I agree. I think alcohol just lowers inhibions enough to let the real person show through. My RAH was never abusive, drinking or not. Before he became an alcoholic he was very social, talkative and friendly, and had a bit of a temper when things didn't get done the way he thought they should. When he was drinking, he was the same, except all the things I just mentioned were exaggerated. In a very annoying way. I think in a lot of cases, the alcoholic is still the same person, but the alcohol allows the wall to come down and the real person comes out.
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Thank you, Amy55. Yes, I came here thinking that if AXH got sober, he'd stop being abusive.
I've shared before that I started counseling so I could learn to communicate with him. He'd tell me that all the "misunderstandings" were because I couldn't communicate, so I thought an counselor who specialized in addictions could help me figure out how to talk with him. That counselor told me she'd keep helping me learn about addictions, but that I'd benefit from contacting the local DV and rape crisis centers.
It was only after working with another therapist that I realized that some of AXH's worst behavior was when he was sober.
I agree, that alcoholism and abuse are 2 completely separate things. Neither cause the other. They simply co-occur sometimes.
I think alcohol just provided a convenient excuse. For him to use, "TU, I'm so sorry. I would never have ___ if I hadn't been drunk." And for me to focus on instead of the true reason behind the abuse, which was that, in his life, I only existed to be his property and he was entitled to do as he liked. He was entitled to expect I would behave in a certain way, and when I failed to (because the rules changed with his moods), he was entitled to "correct" me.
I've shared before that I started counseling so I could learn to communicate with him. He'd tell me that all the "misunderstandings" were because I couldn't communicate, so I thought an counselor who specialized in addictions could help me figure out how to talk with him. That counselor told me she'd keep helping me learn about addictions, but that I'd benefit from contacting the local DV and rape crisis centers.
It was only after working with another therapist that I realized that some of AXH's worst behavior was when he was sober.
I agree, that alcoholism and abuse are 2 completely separate things. Neither cause the other. They simply co-occur sometimes.
I think alcohol just provided a convenient excuse. For him to use, "TU, I'm so sorry. I would never have ___ if I hadn't been drunk." And for me to focus on instead of the true reason behind the abuse, which was that, in his life, I only existed to be his property and he was entitled to do as he liked. He was entitled to expect I would behave in a certain way, and when I failed to (because the rules changed with his moods), he was entitled to "correct" me.
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I am a recovering alcoholic. I was never abusive. Yes, I did try to change my ex, I think it was because I saw the person that he was before, and I wanted to see that person again. I thought I wasn't communicating correctly, I tried to change that, I tried everything that you could possibly think of. I also agree with Wamama, because that's I guess I was acting, "in an exaggerating way". I also can't defend my drinking, because it caused me to lose my adult children for several years.
I really do think this is a good discussion to have, and I do look forward to everyone's views and opinions.
TU, I am reading everything that you write, and it mirrors my life.
amy
I really do think this is a good discussion to have, and I do look forward to everyone's views and opinions.
TU, I am reading everything that you write, and it mirrors my life.
amy
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My exah was worse sober than drunk when he was just at the mellow stage of being drunk but once he reached the tipping point he got nasty. My kids would stay in their rooms while I stupidly tried to reason with him until I worked out it didn't work.
He has wet brain now and personality changes which are not for the better. This has made his verbal abuse much worse even tho he is sober. He came out of 4 years of rehab a real piece of work. He hates everyone. He's racist, bigoted, makes disgusting remarks about larger people which is anyone over 8 stone ( me included) and entitled. The rehab is under investigation for mal practice. I look at how he came out of there and I can see why cos whatever they were teaching was not humility lol. In my experience I think alcoholism and abuse are two separate issues. He has done so very nasty things lately which I know he knows has hurt me but he enjoys hurting me. He deliberately ripped our family apart cos he knew they were my life and he wasn't interested in any of our kids. He set out...while sober..to destroy me.
He has wet brain now and personality changes which are not for the better. This has made his verbal abuse much worse even tho he is sober. He came out of 4 years of rehab a real piece of work. He hates everyone. He's racist, bigoted, makes disgusting remarks about larger people which is anyone over 8 stone ( me included) and entitled. The rehab is under investigation for mal practice. I look at how he came out of there and I can see why cos whatever they were teaching was not humility lol. In my experience I think alcoholism and abuse are two separate issues. He has done so very nasty things lately which I know he knows has hurt me but he enjoys hurting me. He deliberately ripped our family apart cos he knew they were my life and he wasn't interested in any of our kids. He set out...while sober..to destroy me.
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What I have learned over a summer’s worth of research and reading more social science and science journals than I did when writing my dissertation is that alcohol increases the propensity and the level of violence—they were always abusers to begin with.
Abuse is a choice that they make and that was hard for me to accept. My abuser was an alcoholic, albeit a functional one at first. Looking back I can now see the cycle of abuse beginning and playing out. Now that he’s removed from the home, and we’re fighting over things through attorneys, he is still an abuser and uses the tools that he has available to him, which now much come through attorneys because of the restraining order, I can see that he is stil an abuser. The attorneys see it now, too.
Abuse is about power and control. The tactics they use to achieve control are what most people “see” and think of as abuse. Alcohol is like jet fuel to an abuser.
PS October 1 starts Domestic Violence Awareness Month. We’re making it a holiday at our house because we’re celebrating that we are safe and doing okay.
Abuse is a choice that they make and that was hard for me to accept. My abuser was an alcoholic, albeit a functional one at first. Looking back I can now see the cycle of abuse beginning and playing out. Now that he’s removed from the home, and we’re fighting over things through attorneys, he is still an abuser and uses the tools that he has available to him, which now much come through attorneys because of the restraining order, I can see that he is stil an abuser. The attorneys see it now, too.
Abuse is about power and control. The tactics they use to achieve control are what most people “see” and think of as abuse. Alcohol is like jet fuel to an abuser.
PS October 1 starts Domestic Violence Awareness Month. We’re making it a holiday at our house because we’re celebrating that we are safe and doing okay.
Last edited by Leelee168; 10-02-2018 at 02:34 AM. Reason: Incomplete sentence
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My experience is that my husband is a completely different person when he drinks. When he is sober he is the kindest, most giving man I know. He helps around the house, tells me how much he loves me, he'll sit here at night after dinner and rub my feet for an hour without complaining - in fact he says he LIKES doing it.
When he drinks he is mean, combative, arrogant, and indignant. He's a completely different person.
Everyone is different - this is just how my husband is when he drinks.
When he drinks he is mean, combative, arrogant, and indignant. He's a completely different person.
Everyone is different - this is just how my husband is when he drinks.
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The very first time I attended an Al-Anon meeting, I remember there was a woman there who spoke about her alcoholic husband. She said he had been "dry" for many years, but that all of the negative behavior that he exhibited when drinking were still the same. I could not understand why anyone would be complaining if their loved one weren't drinking anymore. I thought if mine would only stop drinking, everything would be just fine.
I now understand the difference between abstinence and real sobriety. Working a strong program or recovery is what makes one sober. Putting down the drink is just a beginning. It's a good beginning for there is hope in it, but it doesn't take away the bad behavior, or the illogical thinking, or any of that alone.
I now understand the difference between abstinence and real sobriety. Working a strong program or recovery is what makes one sober. Putting down the drink is just a beginning. It's a good beginning for there is hope in it, but it doesn't take away the bad behavior, or the illogical thinking, or any of that alone.
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I’ve looked back on this issue objectively and can say that my ex was verbally abusive when he was coming down off pills or running low on his supply. He was never like that when we first met or in the first 4 ½ years of dating but once the pills entered the picture his moods/attitude/behaviors were high and low that coincided with his using.
In my heart of heart I always knew he would never get physically abusive with me but towards the end of our relationship I could no longer say that. From the amount of pills he was taking, he had literally become someone I did not know and I wasn’t about to take that chance.
In my heart of heart I always knew he would never get physically abusive with me but towards the end of our relationship I could no longer say that. From the amount of pills he was taking, he had literally become someone I did not know and I wasn’t about to take that chance.
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I think, it's important to note, for anyone questioning "is s/he abusive" about their partner, that abuse is a pattern of behavior. And that's not something I understood at first.
I think I tried to prove he wasn't abusive by taking a very literal translation of the "cycle of abuse" charts that are out there. Because with AXH it wasn't a neat and orderly cycle: sweet, stress, ramp-up, abusive behavior, apology, sweet, repeat. His pattern jumped all over the place and, in part, it was because I would try different ways to head off the ramp-up or anger. *This* worked last time, do it again... OK, seemed to work... next time, it wouldn't.
But, there were patterns; some quite subtle, others not so much. And they evolved over time. For instance, if something good happened for me, say I got a promotion at work, you can bet, that AXH would treat me to a dinner out to celebrate. If that night didn't end with him twisting it around to a TU put-down, it would come within a couple days. When we first started dating it would be mild: an odd little comment about how he wished he could suck-up to his boss and get a raise, or a snide remark in passing about office work not being real work. It got worse over the years. The last raise I got while with him resulted in him cornering me in our bedroom screaming about how much better I thought I was than him and all the ways I wasn't. So the corrections/punishments/rewards changed over time, but the pattern was there.
I think the alcohol had it's own set of steps in that dance as well, and it didn't follow any rhyme or reason. Kind of like some one dancing a modern dance piece cutting in with constantly changing choreography when the other 2 were dancing a tango. (Not that abuse is a tango, because it's not remotely that lovely.)
I think I tried to prove he wasn't abusive by taking a very literal translation of the "cycle of abuse" charts that are out there. Because with AXH it wasn't a neat and orderly cycle: sweet, stress, ramp-up, abusive behavior, apology, sweet, repeat. His pattern jumped all over the place and, in part, it was because I would try different ways to head off the ramp-up or anger. *This* worked last time, do it again... OK, seemed to work... next time, it wouldn't.
But, there were patterns; some quite subtle, others not so much. And they evolved over time. For instance, if something good happened for me, say I got a promotion at work, you can bet, that AXH would treat me to a dinner out to celebrate. If that night didn't end with him twisting it around to a TU put-down, it would come within a couple days. When we first started dating it would be mild: an odd little comment about how he wished he could suck-up to his boss and get a raise, or a snide remark in passing about office work not being real work. It got worse over the years. The last raise I got while with him resulted in him cornering me in our bedroom screaming about how much better I thought I was than him and all the ways I wasn't. So the corrections/punishments/rewards changed over time, but the pattern was there.
I think the alcohol had it's own set of steps in that dance as well, and it didn't follow any rhyme or reason. Kind of like some one dancing a modern dance piece cutting in with constantly changing choreography when the other 2 were dancing a tango. (Not that abuse is a tango, because it's not remotely that lovely.)
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I struggled with this a lot. How he changed. He was charming and funny and compassionate. Now he's a freaking nightmare to deal with most of the time. He's arrogant and verbally abusive.
I found out quickly that just because he stops drinking doesn't make everything go back to normal. He's better-meaning no verbal abuse and he can be funny but he get angry over stupid crap.
I also think my perception has changed. Sometimes I'll think about a tiff we had and realize the problem was me because over the last several years I've been conditioned to always be ready for a fight. So I react badly to the simplest things.
I found out quickly that just because he stops drinking doesn't make everything go back to normal. He's better-meaning no verbal abuse and he can be funny but he get angry over stupid crap.
I also think my perception has changed. Sometimes I'll think about a tiff we had and realize the problem was me because over the last several years I've been conditioned to always be ready for a fight. So I react badly to the simplest things.
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr 
Not all active alcoholics are abusive. It's absurd to think that alcoholism causes abusive behavior.
National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism No. 38 October 1997
Based on published studies, Roizen (3) summarized the percentages of violent offenders who were drinking at the time of the offense as follows: up to 86 percent of homicide offenders, 37 percent of assault offenders, 60 percent of sexual offenders, up to 57 percent of men and 27 percent of women involved in marital violence, and 13 percent of child abusers.
These figures are the upper limits of a wide range of estimates. In a community-based study, Pernanen (4) found that 42 percent of violent crimes reported to the police involved alcohol, although 51 percent of the victims interviewed believed that their assailants had been drinking.
and
Serotonin
Serotonin, a chemical messenger in the brain, is thought to function as a behavioral inhibitor. Thus, decreased serotonin activity is associated with increased impulsivity and aggressiveness (26) as well as with early-onset alcoholism among men (27).
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I think it depends upon what behavior you are talking about and the individual. It is no one size fits all for every human being. I think sometimes people think (not purposely) that with the elimination of the drug of choice that it will eliminate wvery think that has ever irritated us about this person. Sometimes the drug amplifies the bahavior and I think sometimes we just notice it more because of the other crap going on ie you start to pay more attention to everything once you are "done"
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr
Not all active alcoholics are abusive. It's absurd to think that alcoholism causes abusive behavior.
That's not the case. And alcohol is often used as an excuse, by both the abusive partner and the partner being targeted . My take on this thread is that it's an exploartion of the topic and a source of support for any one who's wondering if it's the alcohol or the partner.
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Originally Posted by alwayscovering
I struggled with this a lot. How he changed. He was charming and funny and compassionate. Now he's a freaking nightmare to deal with most of the time. He's arrogant and verbally abusive.
Here's an example: AXH came across as an aw-shucks-ma'am kind of guy when I met him. He stopped to help someone on the side of the road to change a tire once on one of our earlier dates. No one he knew, just someone needing help. Super sweet. I told him so as we drove off. He said it was nothing, and then he half-glared, "They didn't seem to appreciate it."
It changes over time as they push the line just a little further out.
Originally Posted by alwayscovering
over the last several years I've been conditioned to always be ready for a fight. So I react badly to the simplest things
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Originally Posted by amy55
I think some people come here hoping that it is because of alcohol, and if that person stopped drinking, then everything would be fine.
Or my thinking: "How do I change my partner so I don't have to?"
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
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This is what I think.... You may agree or not. I think that addiction doesn't cause abuse... but abuse can be an excuse for addiction. By that I mean that some people who are abusive use drugs or alcohol as a reason to behave the way they do. They can also use mental illness as a reason to behave the way they do. If you look at abusive people and the justifications they make for their behavior, it is always because they feel entitled to behave the way they behave... and they make excuses: 1) I did that to you because I'm mentally ill... 2) I did that to you because I'm an addict... 3) I did that to you because of you. Their most common excuse is number 3.
People who are addicted to a substance are not "automatically" abusive. They are just... addicted, but the addiction is stressful enough for friends and family (and no doubt stressful for the addict too, obviously... it's hardest for the addict.) So while addiction can strain relationships, the addict's behavior is not the same as the manipulative behavior of a narcissistic abuser. I've heard that the three As can kill a marriage: addiction, abuse, affairs. I think, generally, marriages can survive addiction and affairs... but abuse is more difficult to "manage".
People who are abusive can also have various... issues: addiction, mental illness, etc.. etc.
This question is a bit like asking, "Why is person X a jerk?" Well... the reasons are complicated. Let's put person X in a box: the jerk box. Now let's have a person Y. This person is in a different box: the broke-but-can't-stop-gambling box. Person Y could be a sweet gal who just can't stop gambling, prioritizes the slot machines over meal times, hygiene, and sleep, and also borrows money so that the family funds go to 0 each month. This understandably drives her (for this example, I'm using a "she") family totally crazy, and Mr. Y wants a divorce. Person Y is not the same as Person X.
Now let's look at Person X. Person X is controlling, selfish, and entitled. He wants things exactly the way he wants things -- including what he feels is his right to do coke, weed, pills, and booze. He goes behind his wife's back and empties out her bank account for coke, weed, pills, booze, and maybe an extra woman. He expects his wife to clean up his vomit when he vomits. He expects his wife to NOT go out and enjoy herself with her friends when he is drunk/high/or just too moody to move from the couch (because he also says he has depression). When his wife gets praise at work, he bursts into tears and cries, "that's not FAIR! I can't get praise at work because I'm depressed and need booze." When his wife confronts him with his behavior and asks him to go to rehab, a doctor, or psychiatrist, he belittles her ("well, YOU'RE not so perfect either"), destroys her property, hurts her pets (because "you love the dog more than me"), tries to choke her (to get her to shut-up)... etc. Unfortunately, Mrs. X is afraid of leaving Mr. X because she is afraid he will commit suicide if she does as he has attempted suicide many times when he doesn't get what he wants.
Mr. Y is not abusive. He is an addict.
Mr. X is abusive and ALSO an addict... and also probably has other issues maybe having to do with his mother and maybe also cigars.
I was in a relationship with someone very closely resembling Mr. X. He was on the low end of the abuse scale (no physical violence) until I started to question his behavior and/or motives when he went from 1 to 100 very quickly. So he was like the guy that TheUncertainty was describing: charming at first, but there were things that were "off". I just put up with his "off days" because people used to tell me that I was picky and pushy, which I now realize were never words used to describe boys when I was growing up. I have friends that are like Mrs. Y. They are actually decent people. They don't bother me with their addictions and I don't bother them about their addictions.
In both cases, you can't control the other person's behavior. They have a right to live the way they want to live. If you decide that you don't want to live that way, you have to make choices independently of them.
People who are addicted to a substance are not "automatically" abusive. They are just... addicted, but the addiction is stressful enough for friends and family (and no doubt stressful for the addict too, obviously... it's hardest for the addict.) So while addiction can strain relationships, the addict's behavior is not the same as the manipulative behavior of a narcissistic abuser. I've heard that the three As can kill a marriage: addiction, abuse, affairs. I think, generally, marriages can survive addiction and affairs... but abuse is more difficult to "manage".
People who are abusive can also have various... issues: addiction, mental illness, etc.. etc.
This question is a bit like asking, "Why is person X a jerk?" Well... the reasons are complicated. Let's put person X in a box: the jerk box. Now let's have a person Y. This person is in a different box: the broke-but-can't-stop-gambling box. Person Y could be a sweet gal who just can't stop gambling, prioritizes the slot machines over meal times, hygiene, and sleep, and also borrows money so that the family funds go to 0 each month. This understandably drives her (for this example, I'm using a "she") family totally crazy, and Mr. Y wants a divorce. Person Y is not the same as Person X.
Now let's look at Person X. Person X is controlling, selfish, and entitled. He wants things exactly the way he wants things -- including what he feels is his right to do coke, weed, pills, and booze. He goes behind his wife's back and empties out her bank account for coke, weed, pills, booze, and maybe an extra woman. He expects his wife to clean up his vomit when he vomits. He expects his wife to NOT go out and enjoy herself with her friends when he is drunk/high/or just too moody to move from the couch (because he also says he has depression). When his wife gets praise at work, he bursts into tears and cries, "that's not FAIR! I can't get praise at work because I'm depressed and need booze." When his wife confronts him with his behavior and asks him to go to rehab, a doctor, or psychiatrist, he belittles her ("well, YOU'RE not so perfect either"), destroys her property, hurts her pets (because "you love the dog more than me"), tries to choke her (to get her to shut-up)... etc. Unfortunately, Mrs. X is afraid of leaving Mr. X because she is afraid he will commit suicide if she does as he has attempted suicide many times when he doesn't get what he wants.
Mr. Y is not abusive. He is an addict.
Mr. X is abusive and ALSO an addict... and also probably has other issues maybe having to do with his mother and maybe also cigars.
I was in a relationship with someone very closely resembling Mr. X. He was on the low end of the abuse scale (no physical violence) until I started to question his behavior and/or motives when he went from 1 to 100 very quickly. So he was like the guy that TheUncertainty was describing: charming at first, but there were things that were "off". I just put up with his "off days" because people used to tell me that I was picky and pushy, which I now realize were never words used to describe boys when I was growing up. I have friends that are like Mrs. Y. They are actually decent people. They don't bother me with their addictions and I don't bother them about their addictions.
In both cases, you can't control the other person's behavior. They have a right to live the way they want to live. If you decide that you don't want to live that way, you have to make choices independently of them.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
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Sorry, my replies are so long. I also think this topic is a bit like asking: is there such a thing as evil and is it intrinsic or extrinsic?
I like the good wolf, bad wolf story. I have heard that this is a native American story and I don't know if that is true, but if it is and I am telling it wrongly, I do apologize. Basically there are two wolves fighting inside every person, a good wolf and bad wolf. The wolf that wins is the wolf you feed. If you drink two bottles of wine every day, you're pretty much feeding the bad wolf and the bad wolf wins. Of course, this also depends on how strong the good wolf is.
I think that the point that drugs/alcohol changes the brain is true. But... at that point, you're not going to get the same person back once you remove the drugs/booze.
I like the good wolf, bad wolf story. I have heard that this is a native American story and I don't know if that is true, but if it is and I am telling it wrongly, I do apologize. Basically there are two wolves fighting inside every person, a good wolf and bad wolf. The wolf that wins is the wolf you feed. If you drink two bottles of wine every day, you're pretty much feeding the bad wolf and the bad wolf wins. Of course, this also depends on how strong the good wolf is.
I think that the point that drugs/alcohol changes the brain is true. But... at that point, you're not going to get the same person back once you remove the drugs/booze.
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