Codependency VS Compassion
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Codependency VS Compassion
Some of my behaviours could be seen as codependency. Especially in the relationship I had with my ex. Still I didn't feel codependent and a lot of the things I read about it, I could not at all identify with. While those articles and posts described some of my behaviours pretty well, they were miles away from the reasons behind it, from my feelings and motives.
Lately I have been thoroughly reflecting on the topic, wondering if I was unaware of any motives or feelings that were linked to codependency of if there is another reason I behaved the way I did.
So I did a little reading and have been thinking more about what codependency is, why it's done, how it shows, which feelings lie beneath it, what are the individual's intentions behind their actions etc.
The following is taken from an article on https://psychcentral.com/blog/are-yo...compassionate/
"The line between codependency and compassion can be fuzzy because the intentions of both appear the same. However, while compassion promotes effective communication and mutual respect, codependency destroys the foundation of healthy relationships.
If you are confused, as am I much of the time, as to which activities belong in which category, here are a few questions to ask yourself to determine if you are acting with compassion or codependency.
1. What are your intentions?
The word “compassion” is derived from Latin roots meaning “co-suffering.” Compassion goes beyond the emotion of empathy (ability to feel another’s pain) to actively want to alleviate another’s suffering. The intentions are motivated by love and selflessness. The underlying motive of codependency, on the other hand, is that of self-protection. The codependent person needs to be needed and is pursuing acceptance and safety. She often takes on the role of a martyr or a victim, and makes it about herself. In that way, codependent activity — although seemingly charitable — is closer to selfish than selfless.
2. How do you feel, emotionally and physically?
Because codependency is a form of addiction – relationship addiction – it generates the hangover feeling that most addictions leave you with and deteriorates emotional and physical health. Compassion, on the other hand, promotes general health and well-being. In fact, recent studies show that compassion makes us feel good in a variety of ways. It activates pleasure brain circuits, secretes the “bonding” hormone oxytocin, slows down our heart rate, makes us more resilient to stress, and boosts our immune system.
3. Do you value the other person more than yourself?
Both compassion and codependency may involve attending to others’ needs. At times this requires personal sacrifice. However, a compassionate person continues to care for himself in the process; he or she never abandons himself in order to take care of another. A codependent person, on the other hand, discards his or her own needs, replacing them with the needs of the other person. Then he becomes bitter, resentful, and frustrated when there is nothing left for him at the end of the day.
4. Do you feel like you have a choice?
Codependent persons don’t have a choice — or at least they feel as though they don’t — in taking care of another person. There is an exaggerated sense of responsibility, a fear of abandonment by the other person if they don’t pull through. They are not performing free acts of charity as a compassionate person does. They are imprisoned by a sense that something terrible will happen if they don’t attend to another’s needs and do whatever they need to do to enable behavior, even if they acknowledge that it is destructive.
5. Is the relationship healthy?
Compassion strengthens the fibers of a relationship. Acts of selflessness contribute to mutual appreciation, effective communication, trust, and other key ingredients of successful relationships. Codependency, on the other hand, deteriorates the foundation of relationships, causing dependency, jealousy, bitterness, destructive behavior, poor communication, and a host of other problems. Codependency is usually found in relationships that were dysfunctional from the start, where one or both people are involved in destructive and addictive behavior.
6. Do you feel guilty?
Unlike compassion, codependency is associated with an overwhelming feeling of guilt. Guilt is often the motivating factor for decisions and behaviors within the relationship, even though they don’t make any logical sense.
Of course the distinction between compassion and codependency isn’t always so clear-cut. I think there are many moments in my day that I am acting with both: my intention to help morphs into my meeting a need of my own, or a charitable act becomes less about “co-suffering” than about enabling dysfunctional behaviors. As always, awareness of your actions is key to moving toward compassion."
It helped me to differentiate the two and to get some clarity regarding my own behaviour. Still I find it an interesting topic and if anyone wants to throw in their two cents: I'd love to hear other opinions!
Lately I have been thoroughly reflecting on the topic, wondering if I was unaware of any motives or feelings that were linked to codependency of if there is another reason I behaved the way I did.
So I did a little reading and have been thinking more about what codependency is, why it's done, how it shows, which feelings lie beneath it, what are the individual's intentions behind their actions etc.
The following is taken from an article on https://psychcentral.com/blog/are-yo...compassionate/
"The line between codependency and compassion can be fuzzy because the intentions of both appear the same. However, while compassion promotes effective communication and mutual respect, codependency destroys the foundation of healthy relationships.
If you are confused, as am I much of the time, as to which activities belong in which category, here are a few questions to ask yourself to determine if you are acting with compassion or codependency.
1. What are your intentions?
The word “compassion” is derived from Latin roots meaning “co-suffering.” Compassion goes beyond the emotion of empathy (ability to feel another’s pain) to actively want to alleviate another’s suffering. The intentions are motivated by love and selflessness. The underlying motive of codependency, on the other hand, is that of self-protection. The codependent person needs to be needed and is pursuing acceptance and safety. She often takes on the role of a martyr or a victim, and makes it about herself. In that way, codependent activity — although seemingly charitable — is closer to selfish than selfless.
2. How do you feel, emotionally and physically?
Because codependency is a form of addiction – relationship addiction – it generates the hangover feeling that most addictions leave you with and deteriorates emotional and physical health. Compassion, on the other hand, promotes general health and well-being. In fact, recent studies show that compassion makes us feel good in a variety of ways. It activates pleasure brain circuits, secretes the “bonding” hormone oxytocin, slows down our heart rate, makes us more resilient to stress, and boosts our immune system.
3. Do you value the other person more than yourself?
Both compassion and codependency may involve attending to others’ needs. At times this requires personal sacrifice. However, a compassionate person continues to care for himself in the process; he or she never abandons himself in order to take care of another. A codependent person, on the other hand, discards his or her own needs, replacing them with the needs of the other person. Then he becomes bitter, resentful, and frustrated when there is nothing left for him at the end of the day.
4. Do you feel like you have a choice?
Codependent persons don’t have a choice — or at least they feel as though they don’t — in taking care of another person. There is an exaggerated sense of responsibility, a fear of abandonment by the other person if they don’t pull through. They are not performing free acts of charity as a compassionate person does. They are imprisoned by a sense that something terrible will happen if they don’t attend to another’s needs and do whatever they need to do to enable behavior, even if they acknowledge that it is destructive.
5. Is the relationship healthy?
Compassion strengthens the fibers of a relationship. Acts of selflessness contribute to mutual appreciation, effective communication, trust, and other key ingredients of successful relationships. Codependency, on the other hand, deteriorates the foundation of relationships, causing dependency, jealousy, bitterness, destructive behavior, poor communication, and a host of other problems. Codependency is usually found in relationships that were dysfunctional from the start, where one or both people are involved in destructive and addictive behavior.
6. Do you feel guilty?
Unlike compassion, codependency is associated with an overwhelming feeling of guilt. Guilt is often the motivating factor for decisions and behaviors within the relationship, even though they don’t make any logical sense.
Of course the distinction between compassion and codependency isn’t always so clear-cut. I think there are many moments in my day that I am acting with both: my intention to help morphs into my meeting a need of my own, or a charitable act becomes less about “co-suffering” than about enabling dysfunctional behaviors. As always, awareness of your actions is key to moving toward compassion."
It helped me to differentiate the two and to get some clarity regarding my own behaviour. Still I find it an interesting topic and if anyone wants to throw in their two cents: I'd love to hear other opinions!
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Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,355
Originally Posted by kevlarsjal2 
Some of my behaviours could be seen as codependency. Especially in the relationship I had with my ex. Still I didn't feel codependent and a lot of the things I read about it, I could not at all identify with. While those articles and posts described some of my behaviours pretty well, they were miles away from the reasons behind it, from my feelings and motives.
Lately I have been thoroughly reflecting on the topic, wondering if I was unaware of any motives or feelings that were linked to codependency of if there is another reason I behaved the way I did.
So I did a little reading and have been thinking more about what codependency is, why it's done, how it shows, which feelings lie beneath it, what are the individual's intentions behind their actions etc.
The following is taken from an article on https://psychcentral.com/blog/are-yo...compassionate/
"The line between codependency and compassion can be fuzzy because the intentions of both appear the same. However, while compassion promotes effective communication and mutual respect, codependency destroys the foundation of healthy relationships.
If you are confused, as am I much of the time, as to which activities belong in which category, here are a few questions to ask yourself to determine if you are acting with compassion or codependency.
1. What are your intentions?
The word “compassion” is derived from Latin roots meaning “co-suffering.” Compassion goes beyond the emotion of empathy (ability to feel another’s pain) to actively want to alleviate another’s suffering. The intentions are motivated by love and selflessness. The underlying motive of codependency, on the other hand, is that of self-protection. The codependent person needs to be needed and is pursuing acceptance and safety. She often takes on the role of a martyr or a victim, and makes it about herself. In that way, codependent activity — although seemingly charitable — is closer to selfish than selfless.
2. How do you feel, emotionally and physically?
Because codependency is a form of addiction – relationship addiction – it generates the hangover feeling that most addictions leave you with and deteriorates emotional and physical health. Compassion, on the other hand, promotes general health and well-being. In fact, recent studies show that compassion makes us feel good in a variety of ways. It activates pleasure brain circuits, secretes the “bonding” hormone oxytocin, slows down our heart rate, makes us more resilient to stress, and boosts our immune system.
3. Do you value the other person more than yourself?
Both compassion and codependency may involve attending to others’ needs. At times this requires personal sacrifice. However, a compassionate person continues to care for himself in the process; he or she never abandons himself in order to take care of another. A codependent person, on the other hand, discards his or her own needs, replacing them with the needs of the other person. Then he becomes bitter, resentful, and frustrated when there is nothing left for him at the end of the day.
4. Do you feel like you have a choice?
Codependent persons don’t have a choice — or at least they feel as though they don’t — in taking care of another person. There is an exaggerated sense of responsibility, a fear of abandonment by the other person if they don’t pull through. They are not performing free acts of charity as a compassionate person does. They are imprisoned by a sense that something terrible will happen if they don’t attend to another’s needs and do whatever they need to do to enable behavior, even if they acknowledge that it is destructive.
5. Is the relationship healthy?
Compassion strengthens the fibers of a relationship. Acts of selflessness contribute to mutual appreciation, effective communication, trust, and other key ingredients of successful relationships. Codependency, on the other hand, deteriorates the foundation of relationships, causing dependency, jealousy, bitterness, destructive behavior, poor communication, and a host of other problems. Codependency is usually found in relationships that were dysfunctional from the start, where one or both people are involved in destructive and addictive behavior.
6. Do you feel guilty?
Unlike compassion, codependency is associated with an overwhelming feeling of guilt. Guilt is often the motivating factor for decisions and behaviors within the relationship, even though they don’t make any logical sense.
Of course the distinction between compassion and codependency isn’t always so clear-cut. I think there are many moments in my day that I am acting with both: my intention to help morphs into my meeting a need of my own, or a charitable act becomes less about “co-suffering” than about enabling dysfunctional behaviors. As always, awareness of your actions is key to moving toward compassion."
It helped me to differentiate the two and to get some clarity regarding my own behaviour. Still I find it an interesting topic and if anyone wants to throw in their two cents: I'd love to hear other opinions!
Lately I have been thoroughly reflecting on the topic, wondering if I was unaware of any motives or feelings that were linked to codependency of if there is another reason I behaved the way I did.
So I did a little reading and have been thinking more about what codependency is, why it's done, how it shows, which feelings lie beneath it, what are the individual's intentions behind their actions etc.
The following is taken from an article on https://psychcentral.com/blog/are-yo...compassionate/
"The line between codependency and compassion can be fuzzy because the intentions of both appear the same. However, while compassion promotes effective communication and mutual respect, codependency destroys the foundation of healthy relationships.
If you are confused, as am I much of the time, as to which activities belong in which category, here are a few questions to ask yourself to determine if you are acting with compassion or codependency.
1. What are your intentions?
The word “compassion” is derived from Latin roots meaning “co-suffering.” Compassion goes beyond the emotion of empathy (ability to feel another’s pain) to actively want to alleviate another’s suffering. The intentions are motivated by love and selflessness. The underlying motive of codependency, on the other hand, is that of self-protection. The codependent person needs to be needed and is pursuing acceptance and safety. She often takes on the role of a martyr or a victim, and makes it about herself. In that way, codependent activity — although seemingly charitable — is closer to selfish than selfless.
2. How do you feel, emotionally and physically?
Because codependency is a form of addiction – relationship addiction – it generates the hangover feeling that most addictions leave you with and deteriorates emotional and physical health. Compassion, on the other hand, promotes general health and well-being. In fact, recent studies show that compassion makes us feel good in a variety of ways. It activates pleasure brain circuits, secretes the “bonding” hormone oxytocin, slows down our heart rate, makes us more resilient to stress, and boosts our immune system.
3. Do you value the other person more than yourself?
Both compassion and codependency may involve attending to others’ needs. At times this requires personal sacrifice. However, a compassionate person continues to care for himself in the process; he or she never abandons himself in order to take care of another. A codependent person, on the other hand, discards his or her own needs, replacing them with the needs of the other person. Then he becomes bitter, resentful, and frustrated when there is nothing left for him at the end of the day.
4. Do you feel like you have a choice?
Codependent persons don’t have a choice — or at least they feel as though they don’t — in taking care of another person. There is an exaggerated sense of responsibility, a fear of abandonment by the other person if they don’t pull through. They are not performing free acts of charity as a compassionate person does. They are imprisoned by a sense that something terrible will happen if they don’t attend to another’s needs and do whatever they need to do to enable behavior, even if they acknowledge that it is destructive.
5. Is the relationship healthy?
Compassion strengthens the fibers of a relationship. Acts of selflessness contribute to mutual appreciation, effective communication, trust, and other key ingredients of successful relationships. Codependency, on the other hand, deteriorates the foundation of relationships, causing dependency, jealousy, bitterness, destructive behavior, poor communication, and a host of other problems. Codependency is usually found in relationships that were dysfunctional from the start, where one or both people are involved in destructive and addictive behavior.
6. Do you feel guilty?
Unlike compassion, codependency is associated with an overwhelming feeling of guilt. Guilt is often the motivating factor for decisions and behaviors within the relationship, even though they don’t make any logical sense.
Of course the distinction between compassion and codependency isn’t always so clear-cut. I think there are many moments in my day that I am acting with both: my intention to help morphs into my meeting a need of my own, or a charitable act becomes less about “co-suffering” than about enabling dysfunctional behaviors. As always, awareness of your actions is key to moving toward compassion."
It helped me to differentiate the two and to get some clarity regarding my own behaviour. Still I find it an interesting topic and if anyone wants to throw in their two cents: I'd love to hear other opinions!
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Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 330
Great post thank you!
Based on this info, I think for the most part, my relationship was about compassion because I'd meditate every day, do yoga, take care of myself, enjoy my life, but when I recognised that my ex was a depressed alcoholic, my energy became depleted... I noticed he was envious of my lifestyle and he even admitted this... and I think this made him insecure... and so I started to feel drained emotionally due to his insecurity and him not being able to cope with his problems. I got very depressed and became less motivated to do the things I would typically do... and this in turn then created a resentment in him towards me because I wasn't happy enough, not being strong enough for him, not the strong woman he needed - so I blamed myself a lot But when I pulled myself out of my depression and started doing good things for myself again, and detached a little from him emotionally - he then felt neglected and started drinking more, getting more erratic which created a guilty feeling in me, and so I wanted to save him again. I just couldn't win! So my relationship I think was a mix of compassion and codependency from my side. But from his side it was mostly about codependency with some compassion when he felt stronger and more able in himself. But this would change from week to week, day to day.
Based on this info, I think for the most part, my relationship was about compassion because I'd meditate every day, do yoga, take care of myself, enjoy my life, but when I recognised that my ex was a depressed alcoholic, my energy became depleted... I noticed he was envious of my lifestyle and he even admitted this... and I think this made him insecure... and so I started to feel drained emotionally due to his insecurity and him not being able to cope with his problems. I got very depressed and became less motivated to do the things I would typically do... and this in turn then created a resentment in him towards me because I wasn't happy enough, not being strong enough for him, not the strong woman he needed - so I blamed myself a lot But when I pulled myself out of my depression and started doing good things for myself again, and detached a little from him emotionally - he then felt neglected and started drinking more, getting more erratic which created a guilty feeling in me, and so I wanted to save him again. I just couldn't win! So my relationship I think was a mix of compassion and codependency from my side. But from his side it was mostly about codependency with some compassion when he felt stronger and more able in himself. But this would change from week to week, day to day.
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Surfbee…...one of the concepts that made sense to me, was one that I think I may have read in "Co-Dependent No More".....
It has two parts....
1. Rescuing or enabling is when you are doing something for someone else that they can and should be doing for themselves....
2. Eventually, if one is "rescuing" someone who shouldn't be rescued-- (the "victim")...….the rescuer will, eventually become the "victim"--end up feeling used, unappreciated, etc..
It has two parts....
1. Rescuing or enabling is when you are doing something for someone else that they can and should be doing for themselves....
2. Eventually, if one is "rescuing" someone who shouldn't be rescued-- (the "victim")...….the rescuer will, eventually become the "victim"--end up feeling used, unappreciated, etc..
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Having read that article I quoted above and also the replies, I am most certain that I am not codependent but a very compassionate person. Which I have always been. To me it is a general interest I have in other people's well being and happiness, not the desire to be needed or to have them depending on me (I find the idea of having someone depend on me very wrong). My goal was always to help others to help themselves, to see their own potential and I hoped by working on myself I could pass on some helpful knowledge to them so they would help themselves too. I don't want to be anyone's rescuer or anything along those lines. I just want the people I care about to feel as good as possible. But I never felt like it was my responsibility to make them feel good. It was always something I chose to do when I felt like I had the chance to. Because seeing the people I love being happy, healthy and independent makes me happy. I guess in that way it's selfish again because ultimately their happiness makes me happy but then everything is selfish from that perspective.
The other thing I noticed while reading through this stuff and thinking about it some more: My ex was the highly codependent (and sadly also abusive) one! I remembered a conversation in which I said I no longer wanted to have the rule of telling each other whenever we are in contact with our exes (which he established and over time got transformed into me having to report any contact to male people while he didn't have to tell me anything) and wish for our relationship to be built on trust rather than control. He felt horrible after I said that, for days. He said I had broken his codependency which was like an addiction to him and now he was suffering a withdrawal.
Later in that conversation he admitted that he only "put up with me" in early recovery because I he loves me and hopes that one way to make sure that I would definitely stay with him if he was the one helping me because what else can he offer.
I found this a strange thing to think and to say. But having read so much about codependency, I do now think this is pretty much what codependency is all about? Helping someone in the hope it will tie them to you?
Also this would explain a great deal about the relationship dynamics. In the beginning when I met him, he was very caring and I appreciated having his support as I really needed a bit of that. Soon he got tired of the responsibility and how much energy it takes to help and support someone while he neglected his own needs for support and help (he's a "recovering" alcoholic himself, or a dry drunk). Then he became extremely resentful towards me and suddenly used it against me that he had been supporting me so much. I was shocked to hear that he had been neglecting his own needs so much and that he had given more than he had, wondering why I hadn't realised how worn out he was, and in a 2 months long break I focused on becoming more independent. Which went really well and he was very proud of me, saying that he admires how much I work on myself but at the same time, the relationship just didn't seem to work anymore since we got back together and I suggested that rule change. He said my independence scared him and somehow he seemed to get more insecure, controlling and defensive and ultimately he ended the relationship.
This made me wonder: Can codependent people be happy in a relationship? I guess not then? When they are needed, they neglect their own needs and become overwhelmed and exhausted and when they are not needed, they feel insecure and anxious in the relationship? Did I get that right?
The other thing I noticed while reading through this stuff and thinking about it some more: My ex was the highly codependent (and sadly also abusive) one! I remembered a conversation in which I said I no longer wanted to have the rule of telling each other whenever we are in contact with our exes (which he established and over time got transformed into me having to report any contact to male people while he didn't have to tell me anything) and wish for our relationship to be built on trust rather than control. He felt horrible after I said that, for days. He said I had broken his codependency which was like an addiction to him and now he was suffering a withdrawal.
Later in that conversation he admitted that he only "put up with me" in early recovery because I he loves me and hopes that one way to make sure that I would definitely stay with him if he was the one helping me because what else can he offer.
I found this a strange thing to think and to say. But having read so much about codependency, I do now think this is pretty much what codependency is all about? Helping someone in the hope it will tie them to you?
Also this would explain a great deal about the relationship dynamics. In the beginning when I met him, he was very caring and I appreciated having his support as I really needed a bit of that. Soon he got tired of the responsibility and how much energy it takes to help and support someone while he neglected his own needs for support and help (he's a "recovering" alcoholic himself, or a dry drunk). Then he became extremely resentful towards me and suddenly used it against me that he had been supporting me so much. I was shocked to hear that he had been neglecting his own needs so much and that he had given more than he had, wondering why I hadn't realised how worn out he was, and in a 2 months long break I focused on becoming more independent. Which went really well and he was very proud of me, saying that he admires how much I work on myself but at the same time, the relationship just didn't seem to work anymore since we got back together and I suggested that rule change. He said my independence scared him and somehow he seemed to get more insecure, controlling and defensive and ultimately he ended the relationship.
This made me wonder: Can codependent people be happy in a relationship? I guess not then? When they are needed, they neglect their own needs and become overwhelmed and exhausted and when they are not needed, they feel insecure and anxious in the relationship? Did I get that right?
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As someone who considers themselves recovering from codependency, I am very happy in my relationship.
When I was drowning in codependency, I was CERTAIN that with The Right Person, I could be happy in a relationship.
Recovery has taught me that the single most important relationship that I have ever had or will ever had in my life is with ME. If that is not strong and healthy, no other relationship in my life will be either.
When I was drowning in codependency, I was CERTAIN that with The Right Person, I could be happy in a relationship.
Recovery has taught me that the single most important relationship that I have ever had or will ever had in my life is with ME. If that is not strong and healthy, no other relationship in my life will be either.
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I think unhealthy giving comes from a place of fear. It comes from a place of “I need to be sure to give X, Y, Z to avoid rejection and have support.
Healthy giving comes from a place of genuine love. It is patient and always accepting of the present moment. It comes from a place of self-awareness.
Un-healthy - We love someone who has a substance addiction so we FEAR for them, we FEAR for ourselves and we jump into doing/saying X, Y, Z to “help them” to “love them” to “support them” losing ourselves and our value along the way.
Healthy love would be setting firm boundaries for ourselves and sticking to them. Allowing the other person their own choices regardless of how we feel about it or how it may impact our lives.
Healthy giving comes from a place of genuine love. It is patient and always accepting of the present moment. It comes from a place of self-awareness.
Un-healthy - We love someone who has a substance addiction so we FEAR for them, we FEAR for ourselves and we jump into doing/saying X, Y, Z to “help them” to “love them” to “support them” losing ourselves and our value along the way.
Healthy love would be setting firm boundaries for ourselves and sticking to them. Allowing the other person their own choices regardless of how we feel about it or how it may impact our lives.
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty
When I was drowning in codependency, I was CERTAIN that with The Right Person, I could be happy in a relationship.
Originally Posted by SparkleKitty
Recovery has taught me that the single most important relationship that I have ever had or will ever had in my life is with ME. If that is not strong and healthy, no other relationship in my life will be either.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience, it really helps me understand!
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that's a good piece kev & covers most of my understanding of codependency.
One thing I would add is that the codependent is generally unaware that they are acting in their own interests - ie in expectation of gratitude, approbation, etc. - & believes that they are acting selflessly/compassionately. When someone has a diminished sense of self, for whatever reason, the subconscious/unconscious drive can be very strong for the security of another's approval & acceptance. I think that if you can offer help without feeling slighted if it the offer is rejected then it's compassion; if you come away feeling resentful or unappreciated then it's probably codependency.
We are bombarded by culture - songs, TV, novels, etc. - that depict the abandonment of self for another in the hope that the other will "complete" the self, as being normal, & sometimes noble, behaviours, so I guess it's inevitable that some people will act these out IRL.
Lastly, I don't think the behaviour necessarily applies to all aspects of a codependent's life, it may just be one specific person - eg a particular romantic partner - or a group of people, such as their adult children.
One thing I would add is that the codependent is generally unaware that they are acting in their own interests - ie in expectation of gratitude, approbation, etc. - & believes that they are acting selflessly/compassionately. When someone has a diminished sense of self, for whatever reason, the subconscious/unconscious drive can be very strong for the security of another's approval & acceptance. I think that if you can offer help without feeling slighted if it the offer is rejected then it's compassion; if you come away feeling resentful or unappreciated then it's probably codependency.
We are bombarded by culture - songs, TV, novels, etc. - that depict the abandonment of self for another in the hope that the other will "complete" the self, as being normal, & sometimes noble, behaviours, so I guess it's inevitable that some people will act these out IRL.
Lastly, I don't think the behaviour necessarily applies to all aspects of a codependent's life, it may just be one specific person - eg a particular romantic partner - or a group of people, such as their adult children.
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2. How do you feel, emotionally and physically?
Because codependency is a form of addiction – relationship addiction – it generates the hangover feeling that most addictions leave you with and deteriorates emotional and physical health. Compassion, on the other hand, promotes general health and well-being.
Because codependency is a form of addiction – relationship addiction – it generates the hangover feeling that most addictions leave you with and deteriorates emotional and physical health. Compassion, on the other hand, promotes general health and well-being.
Co-dependency or compassion, for someone who is not emotionally available/addicted/self absorbed can have the same result on you emotionally I think.
Whenever you are giving and receiving nothing or very little back over a period of time, that's going to drain you emotionally. That is why it is so important, regardless of where you are coming from, to look after yourself!
You can be compassionate or codependent, doesn't mean you are looking out for yourself.
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Originally Posted by trailmix
I think this part should come with a warning as it relates to being in a relationship with an addict.
Co-dependency or compassion, for someone who is not emotionally available/addicted/self absorbed can have the same result on you emotionally I think.
Whenever you are giving and receiving nothing or very little back over a period of time, that's going to drain you emotionally. That is why it is so important, regardless of where you are coming from, to look after yourself!
You can be compassionate or codependent, doesn't mean you are looking out for yourself.
Co-dependency or compassion, for someone who is not emotionally available/addicted/self absorbed can have the same result on you emotionally I think.
Whenever you are giving and receiving nothing or very little back over a period of time, that's going to drain you emotionally. That is why it is so important, regardless of where you are coming from, to look after yourself!
You can be compassionate or codependent, doesn't mean you are looking out for yourself.
Originally Posted by kevlarsjal2
5. Is the relationship healthy?
Compassion strengthens the fibers of a relationship. Acts of selflessness contribute to mutual appreciation, effective communication, trust, and other key ingredients of successful relationships. Codependency, on the other hand, deteriorates the foundation of relationships, causing dependency, jealousy, bitterness, destructive behavior, poor communication, and a host of other problems. Codependency is usually found in relationships that were dysfunctional from the start, where one or both people are involved in destructive and addictive behavior.
Compassion strengthens the fibers of a relationship. Acts of selflessness contribute to mutual appreciation, effective communication, trust, and other key ingredients of successful relationships. Codependency, on the other hand, deteriorates the foundation of relationships, causing dependency, jealousy, bitterness, destructive behavior, poor communication, and a host of other problems. Codependency is usually found in relationships that were dysfunctional from the start, where one or both people are involved in destructive and addictive behavior.
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Originally Posted by andyh
that's a good piece kev & covers most of my understanding of codependency.
One thing I would add is that the codependent is generally unaware that they are acting in their own interests - ie in expectation of gratitude, approbation, etc. - & believes that they are acting selflessly/compassionately. When someone has a diminished sense of self, for whatever reason, the subconscious/unconscious drive can be very strong for the security of another's approval & acceptance. I think that if you can offer help without feeling slighted if it the offer is rejected then it's compassion; if you come away feeling resentful or unappreciated then it's probably codependency.
One thing I would add is that the codependent is generally unaware that they are acting in their own interests - ie in expectation of gratitude, approbation, etc. - & believes that they are acting selflessly/compassionately. When someone has a diminished sense of self, for whatever reason, the subconscious/unconscious drive can be very strong for the security of another's approval & acceptance. I think that if you can offer help without feeling slighted if it the offer is rejected then it's compassion; if you come away feeling resentful or unappreciated then it's probably codependency.
Earlier today I had a conversation about this with my mum. She has the tendency to not listen to me properly, jump to conclusions, thinking she knows what my problem is and then comes up with advice I don't find useful as it most of the time isn't even related to my problem or how I feel. I told her that it would be more helpful if she let me finish and explain before she jumps in with advice. She said she gets so eager to help me, that these are her selfless mother instincts that she feels the need to help me as soon as possible, therefor not listening to my problem. That helping me was simply too important to her. She saw herself as completely selfless in those situations.
I tried to explain to her why it is selfish of her and how her reaction to me telling her this is even more selfish: Instead of asking me what my problem was then and giving me the chance to explain what she had misunderstood because she didn't let me finish, she then insists on explaining to me how this was not meant in a selfish way, to defend her actions so I will not see her as selfish but as someone who was just a little too keen on helping me.
Some aspects of what you described also remind me very much of what I read in my books about abuse. The control seems to be the most obvious parallel but what stuck out to me now was the part about getting resentful or feeling rejected when help is not accepted. It's interesting, I will think some more about this...
Originally Posted by andyh
Lastly, I don't think the behaviour necessarily applies to all aspects of a codependent's life, it may just be one specific person - eg a particular romantic partner - or a group of people, such as their adult children.
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I don't believe that every partner/loved one/friend of an addict automatically qualifies as a Codie. I also think a person can start out perfectly healthy & end up Codie as a result of the insanity of dealing with an addict. ESPECIALLY as a result of their ignorance because they often attempt all the classic-fail ways of trying to manipulate their loved one's addiction instead of seeking education.... it's a merry-go-round. You can't seek education about something that you don't recognize happening. So you employ various tactics of control & manipulation (emotional, financial) which turn into habits over time that you don't see for what they are. Depending on how long this dynamic continues & progresses, those codie traits can start to really take over a personality.
My Codependency shows differently in my relationships - it's far easier for me to identify & back away from that behavior with RAH than it is with my FOO because those are the blurrier, more difficult boundary lines for me.
I AM codependent in terms of my FOO (it has been central in those relationships) but I ACT codependently with my RAH at times (it is situational/reactive) because I have always seen myself as fully independent from him on some level, no matter how much I love him..... but again, over enough time that was hard to separate because my codie side was growing in reaction to his bad behaviors. I don't have such an easy separation of Self with my FOO. (I'm getting there)
I think our codependent nature, or lack thereof, has more to do with who we are in relation to everyone around us compared to Self & not just about managing ourselves around addiction. Definitely makes sense that a person codependent from early in life is more likely to seek out relationships with those that will utilize their codie skills because it feels "right" & "normal" to them, or that we slide more easily into that role in all kinds of relationships in our lives.
My Codependency shows differently in my relationships - it's far easier for me to identify & back away from that behavior with RAH than it is with my FOO because those are the blurrier, more difficult boundary lines for me.
I AM codependent in terms of my FOO (it has been central in those relationships) but I ACT codependently with my RAH at times (it is situational/reactive) because I have always seen myself as fully independent from him on some level, no matter how much I love him..... but again, over enough time that was hard to separate because my codie side was growing in reaction to his bad behaviors. I don't have such an easy separation of Self with my FOO. (I'm getting there)
I think our codependent nature, or lack thereof, has more to do with who we are in relation to everyone around us compared to Self & not just about managing ourselves around addiction. Definitely makes sense that a person codependent from early in life is more likely to seek out relationships with those that will utilize their codie skills because it feels "right" & "normal" to them, or that we slide more easily into that role in all kinds of relationships in our lives.
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If anyone is interested, these were great old threads on the topic of Compassion:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ompassion.html (Compassion)
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ompassion.html (Where is the Compassion?)
And this classic on Empathy, just for the heck of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ompassion.html (Compassion)
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ompassion.html (Where is the Compassion?)
And this classic on Empathy, just for the heck of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw
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Originally Posted by andyh
that's a good piece kev & covers most of my understanding of codependency.
One thing I would add is that the codependent is generally unaware that they are acting in their own interests - ie in expectation of gratitude, approbation, etc. - & believes that they are acting selflessly/compassionately. When someone's has a diminished sense of self, for whatever reason, the subconscious/unconscious drive can be very strong for the security of another's approval & acceptance. I think that if you can offer help without feeling slighted if it the offer is rejected then it's compassion; if you come away feeling resentful or unappreciated then it's probably codependency.
We are bombarded by culture - songs, TV, novels, etc. - that depict the abandonment of self for another in the hope that the other will "complete" the self, as being normal, & sometimes noble, behaviours, so I guess it's inevitable that some people will act these out IRL.
Lastly, I don't think the behaviour necessarily applies to all aspects of a codependent's life, it may just be one specific person - eg a particular romantic partner - or a group of people, such as their adult children.
One thing I would add is that the codependent is generally unaware that they are acting in their own interests - ie in expectation of gratitude, approbation, etc. - & believes that they are acting selflessly/compassionately. When someone's has a diminished sense of self, for whatever reason, the subconscious/unconscious drive can be very strong for the security of another's approval & acceptance. I think that if you can offer help without feeling slighted if it the offer is rejected then it's compassion; if you come away feeling resentful or unappreciated then it's probably codependency.
We are bombarded by culture - songs, TV, novels, etc. - that depict the abandonment of self for another in the hope that the other will "complete" the self, as being normal, & sometimes noble, behaviours, so I guess it's inevitable that some people will act these out IRL.
Lastly, I don't think the behaviour necessarily applies to all aspects of a codependent's life, it may just be one specific person - eg a particular romantic partner - or a group of people, such as their adult children.
Spot on!!!
One thing I would add is that the codependent is generally unaware that they are acting in their own interests - ie in expectation of gratitude, approbation, etc. - & believes that they are acting selflessly/compassionately. When someone has a diminished sense of self, for whatever reason, the subconscious/unconscious drive can be very strong for the security of another's approval & acceptance. I think that if you can offer help without feeling slighted if it the offer is rejected then it's compassion; if you come away feeling resentful or unappreciated then it's probably codependency.
Only just learned this recently!!
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Originally Posted by kevlarsjal2
Earlier today I had a conversation about this with my mum. She has the tendency to not listen to me properly, jump to conclusions, thinking she knows what my problem is and then comes up with advice I don't find useful as it most of the time isn't even related to my problem or how I feel. I told her that it would be more helpful if she let me finish and explain before she jumps in with advice. She said she gets so eager to help me, that these are her selfless mother instincts that she feels the need to help me as soon as possible, therefor not listening to my problem. That helping me was simply too important to her. She saw herself as completely selfless in those situations.
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Originally Posted by aliciagr
Ive been reading a lot on parenting lately. My son is coming up on his 1 yr. From your moms perspective, I do that with my son - anticipate his need, and look for the solution for his discomfort. LOL Im sure there is a learning curve for moms when their kids become adults and move into independence. Oh Lord more for me to look forward to !
But I'm a good bit into adulthood, it's been 12 years since I moved out from my mum's place so she had quite some time to adjust
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Kevlarsjal-
For me this uncovering that you are experiencing took time.
I had dealt with a huge layer of my codependent behavior before meeting the relationship that got me here.
That relationship though force my healing to deepen, and widen and I had to revisit both my definition of codependent behavior and my own background and family. I was able to pull on the work I had already done, but I needed to work a deeper layer.
At the time that was scary. I also did not see others doing it. After having been on this board for years I now see that most of us that have been here awhile also experience those layers that we have to revisit.
For me my compassion and codependency were hard to distinguish between.
Also for me my codependency was more as a result from lack of self relationship than it was from my relationship that got me here. As I got healthier, felt better about myself, I was able to detach not just from my loved one but my own "boxes," about myself and my healing really opened up and took off.
Keep being open, keep exploring. This period for me that you are in was one of tremendous growth.
For me this uncovering that you are experiencing took time.
I had dealt with a huge layer of my codependent behavior before meeting the relationship that got me here.
That relationship though force my healing to deepen, and widen and I had to revisit both my definition of codependent behavior and my own background and family. I was able to pull on the work I had already done, but I needed to work a deeper layer.
At the time that was scary. I also did not see others doing it. After having been on this board for years I now see that most of us that have been here awhile also experience those layers that we have to revisit.
For me my compassion and codependency were hard to distinguish between.
Also for me my codependency was more as a result from lack of self relationship than it was from my relationship that got me here. As I got healthier, felt better about myself, I was able to detach not just from my loved one but my own "boxes," about myself and my healing really opened up and took off.
Keep being open, keep exploring. This period for me that you are in was one of tremendous growth.
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I think when looking at the concept of dysfunctional Codependency, it also helps to look at the concept of healthy Interdependence within a relationship.
From PsychCentral
Codependency vs. Interdependency
By Darlene Lancer, JD, MFT
Codependency vs. Interdependency
I was surprised to learn that this grove of aspen trees is actually one organism, sharing one root system. Each of us also is a community of 70 trillion cells that work together. Biologist Bruce Lipton believes that together we’re “one collaborative superorganism.” I love that Facebook allows us to connect one-to-one all over the planet.
Society is highly specialized and interdependent, so that few of us would know how to survive without running water, electricity, and a supermarket. We’re also dependent upon our personal relationships. Human brains aren’t fully developed for 18 years, and psychological and financial independence from our parents takes even longer. Moreover, as adults we depend upon others to fill sexual, social, and emotional needs, such as friendship, communication, nurturing, appreciation, learning, love, and touch. The closer a relationship, the more we’re interconnected.
The Debate
Many claim that because we’re wired for dependency, “codependency” is normal and shouldn’t be considered a problem. They claim it’s not only natural, but healthy and beneficial to be dependent upon an intimate relationship. They blame the codependency movement for breaking up marriages and people’s loneliness. I agree that we all have dependency needs and that healthy relationships can meet those needs and greatly benefit us. However, codependency’s detractors don’t understand — probably from lack of personal experience — that codependents don’t reap those relationship benefits. Often they’re in unhealthy relationships, and they relate to others in unhealthy ways with patterns of obsession, self-sacrifice, dysfunctional communication, and control, which are both self-destructive and hurtful to others. They’re often abusive or allow themselves to be abused.
Codependent Couples
Codependent couples usually are out of balance. Frequently, there are struggles for power and control. There may be an imbalance of power or one partner may have taken on responsibility for the other. They’re often anxious and resentful and feel guilty and responsible for their partner’s feelings and moods. Then they try to control each another to feel okay and get their needs met. Rather than respect each other’s separateness and individuality, they can’t tolerate disagreement and blame one another for causing their problems without taking responsibility for themselves. Sometimes, what they dislike in their partner is the very thing they can’t accept in themselves. Despite their pain, they can feel trapped in the relationship because they fear that they cannot function on their own. Their mutual codependency and insecurity also makes intimacy threatening, since being honest and known risks rejection or dissolution of their fragile self.
Like the aspen trees, on the surface each may appear to be physically, and even mentally and emotionally, independent, yet at an unconscious level, they’re two insecure adults dependent upon each other to express a whole. For instance, a woman who has trouble expressing anger marries an angry man who expresses it for her. Or a man who is extremely closed and shy marries a woman who’s emotionally open and gregarious. They need each other to express their full humanity. In other cases, it’s more obvious that one partner needs the other for emotional stability, as in the case of alcoholic relationships. Financial dependence doesn’t necessarily create codependence, where the dependent partner has good self-esteem and emotional support outside the marriage. Even spouses who appear more capable and stronger may be equally dependent on the relationship. They need someone to care for in order to feel needed, worthwhile, and not alone, while their partner feels valued by receiving.
Interdependent Couples
What makes interconnections healthy is interdependency, not codependency. Paradoxically, interdependency requires two people capable of autonomy (the ability to function independently). When couples love each other, it’s normal to feel attached, to desire closeness, to be concerned for each another, and to depend upon each other. Their lives are intertwined, and they’re affected by and need each other. However, they share power equally and take responsibility for their own feelings, actions, and contributions to the relationship. Because they have self-esteem, they can manage their thoughts and feelings on their own and don’t have to control someone else to feel okay. They can allow for each other’s differences and honor each another’s separateness. Thus, they’re not afraid to be honest. They can listen to their partner’s feelings and needs without feeling guilty or becoming defensive. Since their self-esteem doesn’t depend upon their partner, they don’t fear intimacy, and independence doesn’t threaten the relationship. In fact, the relationship gives them each more freedom. There’s mutual respect and support for each other’s personal goals, but both are committed to the relationship.
But I also think its important to understand in a relationship the balance sometimes shifts temporarily. For example, my husband and I have always had a healthy interdependent relationship, however - he has binge issues with drugs and alcohol. When he was on his last binge a couple years ago - he was not a healthy partner for me. He was not doing his part because he wasn't capable due to the effect of the substances. Things became unbalanced and to some I may have appeared to shift into codependent mode as I was focused on his health, how it was affecting me and our home. Now this was the 1st time I had ever been with him during active addiction. So basically I did not have the skills to deal with his new set of behaviors, reactions, the imbalance in our relationship, and the like. This did not mean that I was suddenly a codependent. It meant I was put into unchartered waters and was struggling to find my footing.
The other thing which I think is worth remembering, since this is a recovery site. The whole concept of codependency was created by the 12 step programs. Its a concept that is central to the programs. I think its good to examine our own behaviors, thoughts, feelings, and to look at our relationships, patterns. We can change and evolve ! But I also feel that it can be easy to label a person as codependent if they do not subscribe to the concepts of the 12 step programs and suggested theories on addiction, role of family / support, and the like. I spent a bit of time where I uncomfortably tried to fit into the box of codependency thinking that I didn't realize I was suffering from it due to the issue of "denial" which is often discussed.
From PsychCentral
Codependency vs. Interdependency
By Darlene Lancer, JD, MFT
Codependency vs. Interdependency
I was surprised to learn that this grove of aspen trees is actually one organism, sharing one root system. Each of us also is a community of 70 trillion cells that work together. Biologist Bruce Lipton believes that together we’re “one collaborative superorganism.” I love that Facebook allows us to connect one-to-one all over the planet.
Society is highly specialized and interdependent, so that few of us would know how to survive without running water, electricity, and a supermarket. We’re also dependent upon our personal relationships. Human brains aren’t fully developed for 18 years, and psychological and financial independence from our parents takes even longer. Moreover, as adults we depend upon others to fill sexual, social, and emotional needs, such as friendship, communication, nurturing, appreciation, learning, love, and touch. The closer a relationship, the more we’re interconnected.
The Debate
Many claim that because we’re wired for dependency, “codependency” is normal and shouldn’t be considered a problem. They claim it’s not only natural, but healthy and beneficial to be dependent upon an intimate relationship. They blame the codependency movement for breaking up marriages and people’s loneliness. I agree that we all have dependency needs and that healthy relationships can meet those needs and greatly benefit us. However, codependency’s detractors don’t understand — probably from lack of personal experience — that codependents don’t reap those relationship benefits. Often they’re in unhealthy relationships, and they relate to others in unhealthy ways with patterns of obsession, self-sacrifice, dysfunctional communication, and control, which are both self-destructive and hurtful to others. They’re often abusive or allow themselves to be abused.
Codependent Couples
Codependent couples usually are out of balance. Frequently, there are struggles for power and control. There may be an imbalance of power or one partner may have taken on responsibility for the other. They’re often anxious and resentful and feel guilty and responsible for their partner’s feelings and moods. Then they try to control each another to feel okay and get their needs met. Rather than respect each other’s separateness and individuality, they can’t tolerate disagreement and blame one another for causing their problems without taking responsibility for themselves. Sometimes, what they dislike in their partner is the very thing they can’t accept in themselves. Despite their pain, they can feel trapped in the relationship because they fear that they cannot function on their own. Their mutual codependency and insecurity also makes intimacy threatening, since being honest and known risks rejection or dissolution of their fragile self.
Like the aspen trees, on the surface each may appear to be physically, and even mentally and emotionally, independent, yet at an unconscious level, they’re two insecure adults dependent upon each other to express a whole. For instance, a woman who has trouble expressing anger marries an angry man who expresses it for her. Or a man who is extremely closed and shy marries a woman who’s emotionally open and gregarious. They need each other to express their full humanity. In other cases, it’s more obvious that one partner needs the other for emotional stability, as in the case of alcoholic relationships. Financial dependence doesn’t necessarily create codependence, where the dependent partner has good self-esteem and emotional support outside the marriage. Even spouses who appear more capable and stronger may be equally dependent on the relationship. They need someone to care for in order to feel needed, worthwhile, and not alone, while their partner feels valued by receiving.
Interdependent Couples
What makes interconnections healthy is interdependency, not codependency. Paradoxically, interdependency requires two people capable of autonomy (the ability to function independently). When couples love each other, it’s normal to feel attached, to desire closeness, to be concerned for each another, and to depend upon each other. Their lives are intertwined, and they’re affected by and need each other. However, they share power equally and take responsibility for their own feelings, actions, and contributions to the relationship. Because they have self-esteem, they can manage their thoughts and feelings on their own and don’t have to control someone else to feel okay. They can allow for each other’s differences and honor each another’s separateness. Thus, they’re not afraid to be honest. They can listen to their partner’s feelings and needs without feeling guilty or becoming defensive. Since their self-esteem doesn’t depend upon their partner, they don’t fear intimacy, and independence doesn’t threaten the relationship. In fact, the relationship gives them each more freedom. There’s mutual respect and support for each other’s personal goals, but both are committed to the relationship.
But I also think its important to understand in a relationship the balance sometimes shifts temporarily. For example, my husband and I have always had a healthy interdependent relationship, however - he has binge issues with drugs and alcohol. When he was on his last binge a couple years ago - he was not a healthy partner for me. He was not doing his part because he wasn't capable due to the effect of the substances. Things became unbalanced and to some I may have appeared to shift into codependent mode as I was focused on his health, how it was affecting me and our home. Now this was the 1st time I had ever been with him during active addiction. So basically I did not have the skills to deal with his new set of behaviors, reactions, the imbalance in our relationship, and the like. This did not mean that I was suddenly a codependent. It meant I was put into unchartered waters and was struggling to find my footing.
The other thing which I think is worth remembering, since this is a recovery site. The whole concept of codependency was created by the 12 step programs. Its a concept that is central to the programs. I think its good to examine our own behaviors, thoughts, feelings, and to look at our relationships, patterns. We can change and evolve ! But I also feel that it can be easy to label a person as codependent if they do not subscribe to the concepts of the 12 step programs and suggested theories on addiction, role of family / support, and the like. I spent a bit of time where I uncomfortably tried to fit into the box of codependency thinking that I didn't realize I was suffering from it due to the issue of "denial" which is often discussed.
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Thanks for posting that alicia! The part about codependent couples sounds like what my ex was trying to establish in our relationship. He could never accept it when I said that I disliked something he did, he then said I was making him feeling like a bad partner and therefore am inconsiderate of his feelings. He was just unable to handel any criticism and said that in a "healthy" relationship there must not be disagreements, arguments, disappointments or any other form of hurt feelings or it means we're not a good fit. I always tried to explain to him that it can't be avoided and I tried my very best to convince him to have a interdependent relationship but the more I tried to keep boundaries and to encourage him to take responsibility for his emotions, actions and so on, the more insecure, stressed and unhappy he seemed.
In hindsight I think he could just tolerate a relationship that is built on control and codependency which was not what I wanted. It feels like the reason it ended was the exhaustion we both experienced by trying to establish two different and incompatible relationship models.
I hoped that one day he'd learn to trust me and overcome his insecurities. And thought that this would be logical if I show him that I am a reliable and caring partner. But maybe I just underestimated how deep seated those issues can be and how much fear there must be involved
I kept telling him to just trust me, that it's a decision he has to make and to stop listening to his insecurities. I must admit I had never thought of codependency as an addiction and it feels equally stupid to expect a codependent person to just stop with the control and to trust like expecting an alcoholic to just not drink. I mean ultimately that's the way it works but I just never understood how hard this might be for him.
In hindsight I think he could just tolerate a relationship that is built on control and codependency which was not what I wanted. It feels like the reason it ended was the exhaustion we both experienced by trying to establish two different and incompatible relationship models.
I hoped that one day he'd learn to trust me and overcome his insecurities. And thought that this would be logical if I show him that I am a reliable and caring partner. But maybe I just underestimated how deep seated those issues can be and how much fear there must be involved
I kept telling him to just trust me, that it's a decision he has to make and to stop listening to his insecurities. I must admit I had never thought of codependency as an addiction and it feels equally stupid to expect a codependent person to just stop with the control and to trust like expecting an alcoholic to just not drink. I mean ultimately that's the way it works but I just never understood how hard this might be for him.
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