On a Precipice - lakegirl is back!

Old 06-07-2018, 04:45 AM
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On a Precipice - lakegirl is back!

Hey all,

Here's the situation.
My husband is still sober since March 12 of this year.
I have been seeking counseling (actual therapist), guidance through my church, as well as attending Al-Anon (though it is very hard to work out meeting times with my 3 littles).

My counselor gently suggested this week that I should have a "contingency plan" in place, should my husband end his sober period.
Because the binges always happen in the evening and therefore I feel trapped due to not being able to leave the situation (kids are sleeping, can't leave), the choices seem to be: 1) he leaves (call uber and drop him at a motel which happens to be next door to AA....HA!) If he is not cooperative with that option, my other option is to 2) Pack up the kids and head to grandma/grandpa for an adventure/sleepover.
I of course do not want to scoop my babies out of bed....but I'm prepared to follow through should this happen.

The counselor suggested that while I could just NOT tell my husband about this plan, it would be better to discuss it with him while he is sober. Transparency is good, I get that. If he has input into what should happen in a contingency plan, all the better since he will know ahead of time what will happen if he drinks. As a side note, counselor also warned me that his alcoholism is a symptom of his PTSD and until his PTSD is triggered, he's a "ticking time bomb". Now it appears to me that just the simple bringing up a contingency plan to him has triggered something. (counselor says in his case, it's a control thing.....so something making him feel like he's not in control of a situation could trigger.)

Well, I discussed it with him. He was calm but I could tell it was starting to scramble his brain , if that makes sense.
He agreed to the plan, but I started to hear things that were not logical.

The next morning, he searched the following things on his phone while at work: apartments, how to live in a minivan, local divorce attorneys, dad's rights, and jobs of his field in Florida.
Seriously, dude?
So, a complete overreaction.
(He has accountability software on his phone. That is how I know about this.)

I asked him if he was planning on leaving us.
Complete Derrrrrr I don't know what you're talking about response from him. So I asked him why he looked up what he did.
Huge overreaction from him. I even recorded the conversation on my phone so that I can go back and remind myself I'm not crazy.
To paraphrase, he should have a backup plan too, since I'm planning on removing him from the house.
Um, what? Dude. The only reason for me needing to activate my plan is IF you drink. So if you're not planning on drinking......there's no need for your so called "backup plan". He got very angry with me. (Sounds like he KNOWS he's going to drink again. )

Is that some crazy messed up way of thinking or what?

So now here's my dilemma. Sorry this got long.
Since my parents are part of the contingency plan, they should know about this situation so I don't possibly blindside them. It would be best if my husband were the one to tell them. This is coming from the therapist who says that if my husband tells them, it will help with trust in his relationship with them. (their trust in him) If I show up unannounced with the kids, they're going to have major trust issues with him.
Thing is, I don't know that he's in a mindset to be able to tell them now, judging by how upset he got with my asking him why he was looking at divorce lawyers and apartments.

So now.....tell my parents without him present or not tell my parents and hope that he tells them before something happens......

Thanks for listening.
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:54 AM
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Lakegirl…...Here are my thoughts...….
The fondest dream of every alcoholic is to be able to drink normally, like non-alcoholics. To think of never having another drink...ever again...is like telling a goldfish that they will never see a drop of water, again.
I am gathering that he is not attending any kind or sobriety program...Just "white knuckling" it..?
If this is so...then, he is just going on sheer will-power...and, the likelihood for relapse is very, very high....and, you are going to need your contingency plan.
You are not an alcoholic, so you don't know what it is like inside of the alcoholic brain....the "alcoholic voice" is whispering to him, 24/7...it is a constant battle between the voice and himself....when stress and psychic discomfort comes, in life, and there is no program to give him the tools that he needs...reaching for the drink is like a spinal reflex..
His thinking might not seem logical to you...without an alcoholic brain....but, to him....with the alcoholic brain and messed up neurotransmitters...it is absolutely logical....

The two of you are on separate. but parallel tracs...the way I see it...
Your first priority is to protect your kids....
His priority is to protect his ability to drink...
None of this is about him drinking against you....he probably has no desire to hurt you (even though it does)...he is still controlled by his disease....it is just what alcoholics do....untreated--the compulsion to drink is very, very powerful....


This is my person opinion.....that, when the alcoholism begins to affect your life and that of your children, then, you have a right to do whatever it takes that is in your own welfare, and, that of your children.....
The way I see it, you have the right to tell his parents the truth, when it becomes necessary for your own welfare....
Actually, he already knows that you will have to tell your parents why you are bringing the kids over in such an precipitous way....

If he wants, he has the right to beat you to punch, and tell them yourself...but, I really doubt that he will do that without you pressuring him to do it....
In any case...if he tells them, under pressure...or you tell them, by default....he will be resentful and probably "blame" you, in his mind.
Anyone who comes between an alcoholic and their ability to drink, comfortable, is resented...even if they are a loved one...…

Any way you cut it...you still have to think of your long-term welfare and that of your kids....You can't count on him...because alcoholism is controlling him.....

If you would like to understand more about how alcoholism works....you might like to read "The Alcoholic Brain"...by Kuhar….it contains the latest research on the subject.....

You might like to read about how the alcoholic works, psychologically....I suggest the articles written by Floyd P. Garrett...

http://www.bma-wellness.com/papers/A..._Lies_Rel.html

There are several other similar articles by Garrett....look under "Origional Papers"...on the right hand side of the webpage.....
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Old 06-07-2018, 06:15 AM
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I would suggest you just tell your parents what they need to know in case you need to activate your contigency plan.

His recovery from PTSD and his recovery from alcoholism are his responsibility, not yours or your therapists.
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Old 06-07-2018, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty View Post
I would suggest you just tell your parents what they need to know in case you need to activate your contigency plan.

His recovery from PTSD and his recovery from alcoholism are his responsibility, not yours or your therapists.
Yep. I honestly disagree completely with discussing your contingency plans with the person who may create the situation requiring such a thing. It's illogical, especially with the unpredictability of addiction.

This is why, IMO, separate recoveries are necessary - what is good for one is not necessarily understood by the other. No way he sees this as trust BUILDING on his side - the entire situation exists because you can't trust him to stay sober & therefore need a Plan B. How else can he hear that, at less than 90 days sober? And it IS exactly what you mean, right?

Does your counselor specialize in addictions?
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:09 AM
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I think you do what you need to do, he does what he needs to do (or thinks he needs to do). I don't see a reason to share contingency plans with him, except for a basic statement of your boundaries (if you drink I will leave and take the kids - then follow through) - the details are not his issue. Similarly, the trust relationship between him and your parents is his issue, not yours. Tell them what they need to know and leave it at that. Don't hope or expect anything from your husband.

It sounds like this "contingency plan"is taking on a life of its own and becoming another arena for conflict and subterfuge. Can you "drop the rope" on this one, and keep it as simple as possible? It seems like you are over-analyzing, over-anticipating and over-negotiating with your husband around him not drinking.
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
Yep. I honestly disagree completely with discussing your contingency plans with the person who may create the situation requiring such a thing. It's illogical, especially with the unpredictability of addiction.

This is why, IMO, separate recoveries are necessary - what is good for one is not necessarily understood by the other. No way he sees this as trust BUILDING on his side - the entire situation exists because you can't trust him to stay sober & therefore need a Plan B. How else can he hear that, at less than 90 days sober? And it IS exactly what you mean, right?

Does your counselor specialize in addictions?

Yes, counselor specializes in addictions and PTSD.
The reason for discussing the plan with my husband was so that the boundary is clear and known and give him the opportunity to tell my parents. (I'm not going to pressure him into telling them at this point. I think it's pretty clear that he's not going to step up and do it.)
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by dandylion View Post
Lakegirl…...Here are my thoughts...….
The fondest dream of every alcoholic is to be able to drink normally, like non-alcoholics. To think of never having another drink...ever again...is like telling a goldfish that they will never see a drop of water, again.
I am gathering that he is not attending any kind or sobriety program...Just "white knuckling" it..?
If this is so...then, he is just going on sheer will-power...and, the likelihood for relapse is very, very high....and, you are going to need your contingency plan.
You are not an alcoholic, so you don't know what it is like inside of the alcoholic brain....the "alcoholic voice" is whispering to him, 24/7...it is a constant battle between the voice and himself....when stress and psychic discomfort comes, in life, and there is no program to give him the tools that he needs...reaching for the drink is like a spinal reflex..
His thinking might not seem logical to you...without an alcoholic brain....but, to him....with the alcoholic brain and messed up neurotransmitters...it is absolutely logical....

The two of you are on separate. but parallel tracs...the way I see it...
Your first priority is to protect your kids....
His priority is to protect his ability to drink...
None of this is about him drinking against you....he probably has no desire to hurt you (even though it does)...he is still controlled by his disease....it is just what alcoholics do....untreated--the compulsion to drink is very, very powerful....


This is my person opinion.....that, when the alcoholism begins to affect your life and that of your children, then, you have a right to do whatever it takes that is in your own welfare, and, that of your children.....
The way I see it, you have the right to tell his parents the truth, when it becomes necessary for your own welfare....
Actually, he already knows that you will have to tell your parents why you are bringing the kids over in such an precipitous way....

If he wants, he has the right to beat you to punch, and tell them yourself...but, I really doubt that he will do that without you pressuring him to do it....
In any case...if he tells them, under pressure...or you tell them, by default....he will be resentful and probably "blame" you, in his mind.
Anyone who comes between an alcoholic and their ability to drink, comfortable, is resented...even if they are a loved one...…

Any way you cut it...you still have to think of your long-term welfare and that of your kids....You can't count on him...because alcoholism is controlling him.....

If you would like to understand more about how alcoholism works....you might like to read "The Alcoholic Brain"...by Kuhar….it contains the latest research on the subject.....

You might like to read about how the alcoholic works, psychologically....I suggest the articles written by Floyd P. Garrett...

Addiction, Lies and Relationships

There are several other similar articles by Garrett....look under "Origional Papers"...on the right hand side of the webpage.....
Regarding a program being in place....
He has been attending AA often since the "last time" (Mid march).
It seems he has been attending less often lately, which I think is telling.
Which is why the title of my thread is Precipice. I feel he's at the edge/defining moment. Reach out to his group and his sponsor like he should, or withdraw and succumb to the AV.

At least I know what my steps will be.....
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972 View Post
I think you do what you need to do, he does what he needs to do (or thinks he needs to do). I don't see a reason to share contingency plans with him, except for a basic statement of your boundaries (if you drink I will leave and take the kids - then follow through) - the details are not his issue. Similarly, the trust relationship between him and your parents is his issue, not yours. Tell them what they need to know and leave it at that. Don't hope or expect anything from your husband.

It sounds like this "contingency plan"is taking on a life of its own and becoming another arena for conflict and subterfuge. Can you "drop the rope" on this one, and keep it as simple as possible? It seems like you are over-analyzing, over-anticipating and over-negotiating with your husband around him not drinking.
Hmmm...I assure you that I am not confusing his relationship with my parents as my issue. Just that it would be great if this could go the way of him stepping up to the plate and owning it by telling my parents himself. I'm prepared if that doesn't happen. Just because that's the way it should happen, certainly doesn't mean it will. I get it!

Like you said, I'm basically dropping it at this point. Keepin it simple.
I have made all preparations should I need my plan. I was extremely thorough. I will likely be talking to my parents tomorrow.
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Lakegirl111 View Post
Yes, counselor specializes in addictions and PTSD.
The reason for discussing the plan with my husband was so that the boundary is clear and known and give him the opportunity to tell my parents. (I'm not going to pressure him into telling them at this point. I think it's pretty clear that he's not going to step up and do it.)
Boundaries are personal - they don't HAVE to be explained & clear. He doesn't have to accept your boundaries for them to be right for you. There's no reason to discuss them.

And again, at less than 90 days into recovery, it seems like an aggressive approach to me.
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Old 06-07-2018, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Lakegirl111 View Post
The counselor suggested that while I could just NOT tell my husband about this plan, it would be better to discuss it with him while he is sober. Transparency is good, I get that. If he has input into what should happen in a contingency plan, all the better since he will know ahead of time what will happen if he drinks.
I completely agree with SparkleKitty here. It is not your responsibility to worry about his reaction to you packing up the kids and going to your parents, if he should actually start drinking again.

The therapist is not his therapist as well I take it? Therefore he/she should not be advising what HE should be doing, in my opinion or second-guessing what his reaction may or may not be to any given situation.

While people with PTSD probably have many of the same triggers and reactions, they are not robots and each person's situation must be looked at individually. Would you like your situation to be addressed by a counsellor that only knows your Husband's views?

All that said, personally I would forget all about having him tell your parents about the contingency plan. Forcing a grown man to go to your parents to tell them what will happen if he screws up is - just weird in my opinion.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:25 AM
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So here's the thing....
I'm not worrying or taking on any responsibility for what his reaction would be.
I'm simply giving thought to it, preparing myself for possible outcomes.
Does that make sense?
I don't feel that I'm unreasonable to want some open communication with my husband while he's sober (and yes, I know I know....just because he's sober doesn't meaning he's really able to understand what I'm saying.).
So for me, at least I know that I have done what my conscience felt was right - to let him know the boundary. Whether or not he hears it correctly or not...up to him, of course.

My question was basically this: I could tell my parents preemptively OR I could give him some time to be able to do it on his on unprompted (key word there) by me. One could argue that he's had plenty of time already to do that.....I guess that's one way to look at it . My parents work completely opposite hours from each other and my husband also works insane hours, so there are a lot of logistical issues with arranging to talk to them.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Lakegirl111 View Post
My question was basically this: I could tell my parents preemptively OR I could give him some time to be able to do it on his on unprompted (key word there) by me. One could argue that he's had plenty of time already to do that.....I guess that's one way to look at it . My parents work completely opposite hours from each other and my husband also works insane hours, so there are a lot of logistical issues with arranging to talk to them.
Yes, I see where you are coming from.

I guess this is just out of my realm of experience. I have never invited someone else in to a relationship I am in.

That is not to say that I haven't discussed relationships with trusted others, I certainly have.

This is going to be blunt so please forgive that, I don't mean it in any confrontational way. Your plan sounds manipulative. Like trying to make him face up to his problem. Come clean to a third party. Humble himself. Forcing/expecting someone to do that is unfathomable to me. Even if none of that is true, at the very least, you are still setting up an expectation which will probably not come to fruition.

I do wish you well, it's a tough situation you are in.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by trailmix View Post
Yes, I see where you are coming from.

I guess this is just out of my realm of experience. I have never invited someone else in to a relationship I am in.

That is not to say that I haven't discussed relationships with trusted others, I certainly have.

This is going to be blunt so please forgive that, I don't mean it in any confrontational way. Your plan sounds manipulative. Like trying to make him face up to his problem. Come clean to a third party. Humble himself. Forcing/expecting someone to do that is unfathomable to me. Even if none of that is true, at the very least, you are still setting up an expectation which will probably not come to fruition.

I do wish you well, it's a tough situation you are in.
Hey TrailMix, thank for your reply.
I received it well. No hard feelings.
I think it's pretty obvious what needs to happen.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:45 AM
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trailmix...the way I look at it----just get it over with....since it will have to come out, one way or the other...
The idea that an alcoholic who still probably harbors the desire to drink...and, hops over the in-laws to announce...."I am an alcoholic who is probably going to rturn to drinking again...so get ready"....seems a bit of a fantasy , to me. I have never, ever, seen an alcoholic do that.....
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dandylion View Post
trailmix...the way I look at it----just get it over with....since it will have to come out, one way or the other...
The idea that an alcoholic who still probably harbors the desire to drink...and, hops over the in-laws to announce...."I am an alcoholic who is probably going to rturn to drinking again...so get ready"....seems a bit of a fantasy , to me. I have never, ever, seen an alcoholic do that.....
Yes, personally I would just pick up the phone and say - if AH drinks again the kiddies and I will be on your doorstep so if you hear the key in the front door at 1 in the morning that's us.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:56 AM
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(((hugs)))

I learn by doing. There are many different tactics I've learned to implement in this war against the insanity of alcoholism.

Kindness, to myself and others, looks much different now than when I started down this path of loving an alcoholic. None of it wrong, simply learning. From many different therapists & counselors who specialize in addictions, from hearing from others who've gone through these things, and from my own experiences as my viewpoints naturally change.

My tactics in this day include great self-care, connecting with healthy people and sometimes literally shutting the door when faced with someone else's mental issues.

God tends to also bring these things into my life in smaller ways so I can practice in easier situations. At work, through Al-anon, daily connections through family, friends, neighbors and strangers. As I learn new behaviors, the way I deal with anything, including my relationship with my alcoholic husband, is authentically me. This takes time to develop.

It sounds like you're doing very well.

One day at a time.
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Old 06-07-2018, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by trailmix View Post
Yes, personally I would just pick up the phone and say - if AH drinks again the kiddies and I will be on your doorstep so if you hear the key in the front door at 1 in the morning that's us.

^^^ Sounds right to me. That plan keeps your husband out of your business (deciding when/if/how you leave) and keeps you out of his business (deciding when/if/how to talk to your parents about his drinking).
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Old 06-07-2018, 12:24 PM
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It would be best if my husband were the one to tell them.
I don't agree. It's YOUR contingency plan, not his, and they are your parents. I don't blame him for making his own contingency plans, like checking out apartments and divorce lawyers. You are both making wise decisions and this may reiterate to him how serious the consequences are if he drinks.
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Old 06-07-2018, 02:04 PM
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I guess what I don't understand.... maybe understand isn't the word to use...I don't know...
I let him know what my contingency plan would be and his reaction was to look up divorce attorneys and apartments. Not reaching out to his sponsor or any other healthy thing. It's like he knows he's planning on drinking again. It was very revealing to me of how his mind works (or doesn't). There's absolutely no need to go through with my plan unless HE decides to choose to drink.
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Old 06-07-2018, 02:28 PM
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Lakegirl...like I said....the fondest desire of every alcoholic is to be able to drink again, like non-alcoholics do.....The idea of never being able to do that, at some point...is unthinkable to an alcoholic...(refer to my other post to you...lol).
The alcoholic "voice" is there in the back of his mind.....(explained in the two resources that I recommended to you)….
He is very early on in the recovery process...and, you state that he has tapered off a bit with his AA connection....
If an alcoholic has to choose between the family and the alcohol....even though they might love the family....the compulsion to drink is so very powerful....
If you read the thousands of stories on this forum you will see how often that happens....
AA is full of those who lost jobs, homes, families, health, etc...before they were able to commit to genuine recovery....
He probably can't say "goodby" forever to his old friend...the thing that helps him cope with the most uncomfortable feelings....
It is not against you....it is about his disease....this is what alcoholics do...they drink alcohol to cope with being alive....
Please read the articles by Floyd P. Garrett....that explains it sooo much better!

I hate to be the bearer of such grim reality to you...I really do....but, I see no other way....I think it would be wrong to allow you to put your head in the sand concerning the true reality of dealing with alcoholism....
He is so early on...and, he still has so much to learn...and, you will not be the one to be able to teach him.....
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