Sasha1972

So - how do others handle the challenge of wanting to be optimistic about alcoholics' promises to stop drinking?

Kid tells me that her father (my ex-husband and the reason I'm on this site) has promised to stop drinking (again). She says he acknowledges having seizures brought on by withdrawal last month, and that this "freaked him out" so much that he hasn't had anything to drink since then. Apparently he is also doing this on his own, no group or program involved. She says he has bet her ten dollars that he will make it to six months without drinking.

Question - how do I deal with her optimism (and my own)? Ex has promised to stop drinking many times before. Every time he relapses and gets worse. He has promised Kid several times before that he would stop for her sake. He has also announced to other people that he plans to pursue "harm reduction" rather than abstinence (in other words, continue drinking, just not so much).

Part of me thinks, "okay, here we go again. Unrealistic promises. How likely is it that someone who has been drinking heavily for at least 30 years will be able to just stop on his own and stay stopped? Not very". Part of me thinks, "well, maybe having had a near-fatal medical event really will change his mind. Maybe he really has hit bottom. Maybe not everyone needs a program or support to stop drinking. Maybe at some point I will be able to have a normal co-parenting relationship with him, instead of an insane one".

Kid is optimistic - this time her father is really going to quit, because his seizures were so scary. I don't want to say "your father is a chronic liar, so I wouldn't believe this latest story. Plus, there's the whole mental illness piece which won't go away if he just dries out". I also don't want to say "that's awesome! Hooray Dad! Soon everything will be just great!". What I did say was some version of "more will be revealed" - it's good that ex is saying he'll stop drinking, but I'm going to be cautious because this has happened before. We'll wait and see.

But part of me still wants to believe that this time it's really going to work, ex is that one in a hundred who can quit cold turkey by himself, things are going to get better ...

AnvilheadII

my opinion? nobody who is SERIOUS about recovery would make a ten dollar bet with their minor child about it.

best to keep expectations down to around zero. i think i would offer some caution to DD as well.......yes it is ok to hope that her father really gets it THIS time, but the key here is you all have been here before, with lots of talk and promises. but try not to be too surprised or disappointed should his dry spell not last very long.

yes people do have moments of clarity and have a complete change of heart and mind in a single flash, often when faced with life threatening issues. as they say, there are no atheists in foxholes. and yes it would be wonderful if you didn't have to deal with addict crazy anymore. but i wouldn't be calling the attorney and modifying the parenting plan just yet.........

nez

I personally hope that I never lose my optimism. Optimism doesn't cause me any issues until it segues into expectations. When that happens things go sideways fast.

I make plans, I just don't plan outcomes.

trailmix

So if the other people he has spoken to are to be believed, he said he is going to try to moderate.

On the other hand he told your Daughter he is quitting.

Which is it?

Sasha1972

I have no idea. He tells people what he thinks they want to hear. Kid knows he's an alcoholic, so for her it's a big heroic promise - "I'm going to stop drinking!". To someone who just thinks of him as a heavy drinker, saying that he's going to pursue "harm reduction" means that he doesn't have to acknowledge that he's addicted.

Sasha1972

The "bet" thing is borderline manipulative - he's done this stuff before, it's a way of "enlisting" supporters by getting them involved in agreements and wagers and so forth. I definitely went down that path many times before realizing it was a form of attention-seeking. My lawyer calls it "recruiting for Team Alcoholic". My feeling is the same as yours, someone who's really had a change of heart and wanted to pursue sobriety wouldn't make bets with his daughter, he would just DO IT.


Yes - I need to make sure my expectations stay realistic. If he's reached the point where he's hallucinating and seizing during withdrawal, he really really needs to reduce his intake, so even if this "pledge" only lasts for a short time, it's better than nothing at all.

hopeful4

I have found that I stay very low key. I say things like "I hope he has success with that." Because between you and I, it's BS. You know that.

I had to go pick up my DD from her dad's this past weekend b/c she caught him drinking w/her there. He blamed our other child who was not even present for his reason for drinking LOL. It NEVER changes. I usto go ballistic when stuff like this would happen. Now, I simply went and picked her up. I did not speak a word to him. I told her I was sorry it happened and told her I am there if and when she needs to talk. She did talk about it for a bit then carried on w/her evening. When I have huge anxiety that my child can see, she then has anxiety too. If I am calm, she is also calm. It took a long time to get there, but here we are.

One day she will be old enough, and brave enough, that she will tell him she is not coming back. Until then, she is calm and handles herself amazingly, and that is all she can do.

Big hugs. Be there for your daughter when she hurts. Stay calm. Keep the door of communication wide open. Eventually she will not believe a word that comes out of his mouth.

FireSprite

Can I ask why not? It's the truth, it's compassionate & it's more likely to occur than not.

I find this type of share to be perfect, especially since:

What's the harm in honesty here? For me, with my daughter, this IS the best way to handle this situation. It helps her establish reasonable expectations & boundaries of her own AND it builds trust between us in the long run when I show her the respect of being honest even when I don't like the truth myself.

JMHO but sometimes we don't give our kids enough credit to handle the truth - even while we know they are growing up around all of this very adult dysfunction.

hopeful4

I have to agree with FireSprite. I am gentle w/my DD but we have definitely discussed, at length, that her father lies, and that he has mental illness that contributes. She knows he refuses help, and that it will likely never change.

I don't beat the dead horse, so now I just say calm, cool, and collected as much as possible.

Many hugs.

Mango212

Ala-kid and Ala-teen programs have been a safe place for my young child to get support from peers who "get it". I get to let my child have optimism, wherever it comes from. These kids find connections with their Higher Power and others going through similar experiences.

My part in it is to pray. By myself. With my child. Asking not for my will. Asking for openness, willingness and guidance. And it comes. Again and again, what we need keeps showing up as we need it.

My kid has a dad who has an illness. It sucks. Yet life is good. We no longer plan everything out. Sometimes he is able to show up and be a part of our lives. Our lives don't stop when he does this or if he doesn't. We pray, we trust, we hope, we have optimism. We also let light be shown on the shadows and our fears shrink. We face our fears. We walk through them. Not blindly. We have our own voices and we use them. We're imperfectly human.

We keep gaining new skills for navigating life, with fun, joy and confidence. With allowing all emotions to surface and express themselves, without hurting ourselves or others.

One step at a time.
Baby steps.

hopeful4

Some Celebrate Recovery programs have a program for teens called the Landing. It's amazing.

aliciagr

If it was my child, boy it would be hard to see him hopeful and to know disappointment would likely come. But I think I would have an age appropriate discussion on the complex issue that is addiction/alcoholism.. and that it affects the mind, body. And it has a lot of symptoms that we see, but he really doesn't.

I would also say its not easy to just stop even though a person wants to.. So its good sign dad knows there is a problem, and knows alcohol is causing at least part of it.. Its ok to have hope, and support dads attempt to quit. But somehow I would make sure my son knew that his dad loved him even if he failed at his attempt. Its a medical/psych/behavioral issue and its complex, not tied to their relationships and the love between them. I think that would be my main focus.

CentralOhioDad

I dunno, FS, that seems a bit too harsh for my liking. Yes, Kid knows dad is an A, but I think I would temper the message a bunch to make it less bashing towards the dad - not that he deserves careful handling, BTW.

Maybe along the lines of: "You know your dad has lots of issues going on, and what he's said in the past has been difficult for him to own up to, so I'm happy that you feel positive about this, but maybe also keep an open mind to that it might not happen, and how do you handle that?"

Takes out the "chronic liar" piece - even though it's darn-straight truth.

My kid doesn't know AW is an A, so anything she promises, though I know it will be BS - I can't come out and tell HIM that it's BS.

FireSprite

I don't consider it bashing when I'm being 100% honest about the stuff she is experiencing & seeing with her own eyes - I NEVER sensationalize it, never exaggerate, always remind her that compulsive lying is a part of mental illness that isn't easily understood. I wouldn't be having the same convo with her at 4yrs old as I am now at 13, obviously. We're not talking about a convo out of the blue - it's in direct relation to things she is seeing, hearing & experiencing.

I find it far less compassionate to the child to sugar-coat things that are age-appropriate. DD's friends are discussing things like pregnancy, drugs & suicide. Are alcoholism & mental illness really SO much more damaging/inappropriate? Or is that OUR discomfort? At some point when we choose to sugar coat things, WE are choosing to lie to our children too. I WAS that child being lied to by my codie mother - it's no better than the addict's behavior.

hopeful4

It's a fine line. FS, someone like you would be able to explain it in a calm and concise manner. I really think the key is being able to explain it kindly, in an age appropriate manner, while keeping your own feelings outside of the conversation. It's not easy.

Hugs to all of us who have been down this path....there is NOTHING worse than seeing the affects of crappy, hurtful behavior on our children.

FireSprite

Yes - definitely it's specific to each child.

It's also the result of MANY conversations before getting to this point - let's not forget I've been talking to DD about all of this since she was 5. It's unlikely that ANY child could handle a frank discussion about this as their introduction to addiction/mental illness.

We talk about DD's experience and I share the similarities & differences from when I was a child living in my own dysfunction. Sasha's DD (if memory serves) has had pretty extensive experience with unique situations regarding her father's alcoholism. I sincerely doubt that this topic is so far "out there" in comparison to some of the things she's already dealt with.

Sasha1972

It's also challenging to find the right words for being honest, calm and non-stressed about the situation, knowing Kid takes emotional cues from me, even if she doesn't explicitly say so, without normalizing the situation TOO much - I don't want her to think that DUIs and psychotic breaks are normal and no big deal. She knows he's an alcoholic - I haven't used the words "mentally ill", but I have said that his behavior is not the kind of thing that healthy people do.

It really sucks, because I can see the manipulation and the recruitment into codependency - "let's make a bet on my sobriety", "I'll stop drinking because I care so much about you and I really mean it this time", etc. I also see the inconsistency between what he says ("I love you, I miss you, I really want to see you, say you want to see me too") and what he does (continuing to drink, fail breathalyzers, and refuse treatment, even when it lands him with supervised visits only). Children's self-esteem is shaky enough during early adolescence as it is, without being jerked around by a parent.

trailmix

I agree with FireSprite. Having grown up in this type of situation there was never any sugar coating, there was never a discussion (that I can remember). My Mother never sugar coated any of it and it just "was". No tippy toeing around the subject.

I have seen on SR time and again where adult children are estranged from their non-alcoholic parent or struggling with a really tough relationship because what seems to happen is the non-alcholic parent takes part of the blame.

It is up to the alcoholic parent to build a relationship with the child. It is not up to the other parent to protect the alcoholic nor is it their responsibility to sugar-coat what the alcoholic does.

If someone is going to do that I guess you get the fall out as well.

ladyscribbler

I think this was the hardest part for me. I have to let go of what I want their relationship to be and let my ex do what he's going to do. Age-appropriate honesty and learning to talk about dad's disease without judging or predicting outcomes has been helpful in talking to my son.

Sending much love to you and DD. I know I had to walk an especially difficult line while our custody case was going on. Basically he was allowed to do/say anything, commit perjury and enlist others to do the same, but it would have been Armageddon if I had put one toe out of line. It was especially asinine considering his total lack of interest in DS's life since then.

FireSprite

**I always mean things should be presented in age-appropriate ways for each individual child, so I want to make sure that is stated upfront**

^^This is EXACTLY what I would say to HER Sasha.

DD - I don't know the right words for all of this & I am stumbling through this as surely as you are. I don't want you to think all of this is "normal" but I also don't want to minimize the importance of what we're dealing with because the reality is, we're going to be having these conversations for a long time.


If we wait around for the perfect words, perfect time, perfect setup we'll never have these conversations. It's not something we should strive to do perfectly anyway - we show pour children a LOT when we can show them our humility & the limits of our control/knowledge/whatever. That, more than anything, shows them that it's ok for THEM to fall down sometimes in life in the way they handle things too.

I've read it time & time again in various resources - tell your children whatever you want, they're going to do what you SHOW them, which is part of why this happens:

.... said as someone speaking from current life experience.