Reconiciling AVRT and F2F support
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Hi Daredevil and welcome to Secular Connections (although, despite the sub-forum title, people of faith are welcome too).
As a person who applies AVRT, may I ask what type of F2F do you attend/intend? In order that I may formulate a response to your question.
As a person who applies AVRT, may I ask what type of F2F do you attend/intend? In order that I may formulate a response to your question.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
They are irreconcilable. Addictive Voice Recognition Technique does not even recommend going to a recovery group meeting to practice “shifting”. Further details are all well described in “Rational Recovery, The New Cure for Substance Addiction”, by Jack Trimpey.
Quit 4/17/15
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Pa
Posts: 15,146
I quit using AVRT nearly three years ago following a day of 16 hour drinking and have not looked back. Learning to recognize my AV has likely saved my life.
On the other hand, I had a shaky stretch last fall, mainly brought on by depression. I attended a handful of AA meetings to help strengthen my Big Plan. I don't have an interest in working the program, but being around a roomful of people struggling is a great way to reinforce my Big Plan and keep the AV locked away. Like BB said, take what you need and leave the rest.
On the other hand, I had a shaky stretch last fall, mainly brought on by depression. I attended a handful of AA meetings to help strengthen my Big Plan. I don't have an interest in working the program, but being around a roomful of people struggling is a great way to reinforce my Big Plan and keep the AV locked away. Like BB said, take what you need and leave the rest.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Can the Big Plan become weak?
Originally Posted by stargazer016 
I attended a handful of AA meetings to help strengthen my Big Plan.
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2014
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Originally Posted by daredevil
Seems bifurcated (according to what they posit)
Just wondering how those who subscribe to this method reconcile the need for any type of alternative support.......
Just wondering how those who subscribe to this method reconcile the need for any type of alternative support.......
Pure AV, all of it.
A Big Plan requires nothing in addition. It is complete, perfect and incorruptible, whole and lacking nothing.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Thanks for the information, Daredevil.
Regarding AVRT/RR: SMART Recovery used to be the Rational Recovery Self-Help network, before RR abandoned Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT) in favor of AVRT and shut down its meetings. SMART still uses REBT and "The Small Book" from RR, which includes much REBT material. Some of this history, though not all of it, is covered in the SMART Recovery FAQ.
Jack Trimpey of RR appears to have disbanded the meetings, because he sought an internal locus of control for stopping drinking, rather than instead, depending upon an external support group. However, SMART appear to have the same rationale, because people aren’t expected to attend their meetings, in perpetuity: but rather to learn the SMART tools to stop drinking, and then graduate, back to their lives.
AndyH here in Secular Connections, plus our Moderator, Shockozulu, have far more knowledge of SMART than I do. Given that RR and SMART have the same roots, I can’t see how attending SMART meetings would be negative; if you believe they bolster your sobriety.
Regarding AVRT/RR: SMART Recovery used to be the Rational Recovery Self-Help network, before RR abandoned Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT) in favor of AVRT and shut down its meetings. SMART still uses REBT and "The Small Book" from RR, which includes much REBT material. Some of this history, though not all of it, is covered in the SMART Recovery FAQ.
Jack Trimpey of RR appears to have disbanded the meetings, because he sought an internal locus of control for stopping drinking, rather than instead, depending upon an external support group. However, SMART appear to have the same rationale, because people aren’t expected to attend their meetings, in perpetuity: but rather to learn the SMART tools to stop drinking, and then graduate, back to their lives.
AndyH here in Secular Connections, plus our Moderator, Shockozulu, have far more knowledge of SMART than I do. Given that RR and SMART have the same roots, I can’t see how attending SMART meetings would be negative; if you believe they bolster your sobriety.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,183
I'm a strong believer in, use what works for you. That could mean going to AA or Smart or Lifering meetings while focusing on RR, or focusing on AA or SMART or Lifering meetings and using bits of RR, or doing all of the above. Or doing none of the above and just quitting, or coming to forums like this that serve the same purpose as a meeting for some. There's a lot of dogmatic absolutism in the addiction recovery world, but it's possible to ignore all of it and just put yourself in charge, where you belong, provided you keep to the central focus that all these philosophies share - don't ever drink or use.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Hi Daredevil, regarding AVRT/AA: my experience is that they are diametrically opposed.
AVRT states that we have an internal locus of control, once the technique is learnt, we can stop drinking, forever, under our own free-will. No meetings nor support, required.
Whereas my experience of AAs’ method of control over alcohol is entirely external, the God of your understanding will enable you to stop drinking. AA expounds that God will provide a daily reprieve from drinking, condititional upon attending meetings, working the steps, practising steps 10-12 daily, the latter including passing on the knowledge of the steps to others at the meetings. There are of course some people who attend meetings for the support, but don’t practise the steps. In either case, the locus of control over drinking, is deemed to be external.
AVRT states that we have an internal locus of control, once the technique is learnt, we can stop drinking, forever, under our own free-will. No meetings nor support, required.
Whereas my experience of AAs’ method of control over alcohol is entirely external, the God of your understanding will enable you to stop drinking. AA expounds that God will provide a daily reprieve from drinking, condititional upon attending meetings, working the steps, practising steps 10-12 daily, the latter including passing on the knowledge of the steps to others at the meetings. There are of course some people who attend meetings for the support, but don’t practise the steps. In either case, the locus of control over drinking, is deemed to be external.
ours de petit cerveau
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I PM'd daredevil with some thoughts already as I didn't want to kick off any of the predictable arguments 
but since Tatsy has raised SMART I'll put a few thoughts here too
I think, for abstaining from an addicitive behaviour, that AVRT works very well as a standalone method.
However, & I can only speak for myself here, I had some unhelpful (learned) behaviours - NOT character defects - that some of the SMART tools, based on Motivational Interviewing & CBT/REBT, helped me unpick. I don't consider this to be "recoveryism" as it's self-empowering & evidence-based. also, it's not intended to be open-ended, or "morally improving" or whatever you might want to call it.
I went to some F2F SMART meetings in early recovery & found them helpful, but I've mostly stopped going to them now. I found that the ones I went to - & this is not necessarily representative - tended to end up being used as pseudo- group therapy by some attendees & focussing overly on combatting urges/cravings. I still do the UK online meetings now & then as some of them are more Tools-focused & more adherent to the ethos of SMART, plus it's nice to be able to contribute something back
but since Tatsy has raised SMART I'll put a few thoughts here tooI think, for abstaining from an addicitive behaviour, that AVRT works very well as a standalone method.
However, & I can only speak for myself here, I had some unhelpful (learned) behaviours - NOT character defects - that some of the SMART tools, based on Motivational Interviewing & CBT/REBT, helped me unpick. I don't consider this to be "recoveryism" as it's self-empowering & evidence-based. also, it's not intended to be open-ended, or "morally improving" or whatever you might want to call it.
I went to some F2F SMART meetings in early recovery & found them helpful, but I've mostly stopped going to them now. I found that the ones I went to - & this is not necessarily representative - tended to end up being used as pseudo- group therapy by some attendees & focussing overly on combatting urges/cravings. I still do the UK online meetings now & then as some of them are more Tools-focused & more adherent to the ethos of SMART, plus it's nice to be able to contribute something back
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
Originally Posted by daredevil
what about reconciling AVRT with _online_ (peer) support?
How I get emotionally triggered or frustrated (my anger.) What I need to work on (my coping with people I don't agree with.) How to speak kindly and not be so confrontational.
I think that can be learned here, on a fitness forum, on a cat forum, on a scuba forum, on a Mr. Fixit forum - anywhere that people "discuss." That's where I think F2F shines, but not necessarily addiction-based meetings, more just any F2F. I learned quickly who to talk to, who to listen to, who to avoid, and why. How to speak and how much to share. There is a lot of benefit to just getting together with other people in general: at the gym, at a class, at social gatherings.
We alcoholics tend to be way too sensitive - and the rest of the world will attempt to break us of that bad habit.
Analyzing my part in disagreements is always a productive pursuit.That's a good thing, learning how to talk to people without the social lubricant of alcohol.
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
When I joined SR, I’d run out of options, AA for years, steps, to no avail. I posted a thread here in Secular, with an AVRT question, because I’d encountered the AVRT online crash course years previous, and dismissed it, because I disliked the garish, amateurish site. But I was desperate, AA didn’t work and neither did the library of read self-help, addiction and recovery books.
I received the most amazing support here in Secular, within PMs, from people who’d successfully applied AVRT, stopped drinking, and turned their lives around. Those people gave me the hope that I too, could make that leap of faith: and I did.
The only reason I still log on to SR, is in case I can pay that hope forward, experience that AVRT works. I don’t post for support, because I know in my heart and soul, that I’ll never drink again, after making my Big Plan.
I received the most amazing support here in Secular, within PMs, from people who’d successfully applied AVRT, stopped drinking, and turned their lives around. Those people gave me the hope that I too, could make that leap of faith: and I did.
The only reason I still log on to SR, is in case I can pay that hope forward, experience that AVRT works. I don’t post for support, because I know in my heart and soul, that I’ll never drink again, after making my Big Plan.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 572
Well said Tatsy!
Your answer (permalink #18, paragraph 3) answered the precise question I was hoping someone would answer, and with respect to #19, truly encapsulates the magnitude of this relentless affliction.
Your answer (permalink #18, paragraph 3) answered the precise question I was hoping someone would answer, and with respect to #19, truly encapsulates the magnitude of this relentless affliction.
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