3Dognite

I have been married to my Husband for 26 years this June. He has been sober for 4 years this April. During the height of his addiction, our marriage really suffered. I was a bad wife and he was a terrible husband. I always felt as though he cheated on me with alcohol and drugs; but never actually unfaithful to me. l have always been faithful to him. He is very active in his recovery and AA and I feel as though I am supportive. Our marriage is wonderful, now! I finally feel as though I finally have the Husband that I deserve!
I recently started working in his office and he had huge piles of junk mail and other papers on his office floor. I started sorting and organizing just as I had done with other messes in his office over the last few months. As I sorted through papers I looked down and noticed that I was looking at a list of the three worst things he had ever done and the first one read "I cheated on my wife". I couldn't catch my breath. What was this I was reading. How could he? how could he still be living a lie after working so hard to get where we are now? I later realized that I read something that I wasn't supposed to read. Why was he not more careful with these papers? I haven't mentioned that I know of his infidelities. We watched a movie with a theme of infidelity this weekend. I asked him point blank if he had ever cheated on me and he said NO. He went as far as saying that was one thing he has never done. I then made the comment that a marriage based on dishonesty wasn't a very good marriage. I left it at that. I know if I tell him that I read what I now believe to be his inventory(by mistake) this will all become about me and not his cheating and most of all lying! Our marriage has been so good since he has become sober that I will forgive the past , BUT, I do want honesty and I want an apology I am just not sure how to go about getting it. Any help? I don't want to put his sobriety at risk but I don't want to be lied to. Should I tell him that I know?

LostinLB

Oh god. I was in this exact same position last year.
I know that sick feeling deep in your stomach and the tightness in your chest as you read that. I feel it now just reliving that moment.
What I had found was my (now) XAB's 4th step from a previous attempt at sobriety. I found it while cleaning out some drawers in a desk and tossing out papers and whatnot, so I was reading over everything to see if it was something that could be thrown away or needed to be saved.
Once I read that I was just sick and angry and really hurt. Like your husband - he had always adamantly denied ever cheating on me. He could look me right in the eyes and say he NEVER cheated.

Once I read that I was not capable of pretending I didn't know. He was actually back in rehab at that time and when he called that night I couldn't hold it back. I just said - I need to talk to you about something, I was cleaning out the desk and I came across some papers. I shouldn't have read them, but I did, and we need to talk about it. It said...blah blah blah, whatever it actually said...there isn't a lot I can misinterpret about that, so why don't you start being honest with me.

That is when he told me I had found his 4th step papers and he was really sorry, he told me exactly what the situation was, etc. He was at a point that he was being extremely honest with me about things, so I think he was honest in that moment. I also said this is the time if there is anything else to tell me about to do it now because I am in a place of being willing to start fresh and move forward from all of it, but if this stuff keeps coming up and I find out about more and more things, it is going to be a huge problem.

What he told me is that the person who he was telling "the exact nature of his wrongs" to as he did his 5th step advised him NOT to tell me about it because it would just cause more pain and hurt. That is where I don't know if I believe him, if that was the advice given to him or he decided that himself. If that is true, I think that person gave very bad direction to him as I have a right to know if my partner (who I am in an intimate relationship with) has been sleeping with someone else.

At this point it doesn't matter - we have been broken up for quite a while now and that had nothing to do with it.

For me, there is no way I could keep that information to myself, it would eat me alive. It was uncomfortable to have to admit I crossed a boundary and was reading his stuff, but not as uncomfortable as having to pretend I didn't see it. I think I would have just been getting angrier and angrier until I exploded.

That was my experience and I am so sorry that you are going through a similar thing. I know the pain and betrayal especially as you are trying to move forward and rebuild your relationship. I had a feeling of - if he can still be hiding this, after his big honesty kick and acting like he was 100% open and honest about everything, then what else is there I still don't know about. Let me tell you - that is not a thought you should chase - take it from me.

Sending you lots of love.

Wamama48

That is devastating and I'm sorry it happened to you.
Your heart must have dropped to the floor. As far as his sobriety, that's awesome! Others with more knowledge than me will chime in soon, I've only been on the forum for a month, but you will get solid, honest advice. My first thought was, if you want honesty from him, you should start with honesty and tell him what you found. Hugs to you

SmallButMighty

I had this same exact thought.



I'm sorry you are going through this torment 3Dognite. I understand wanting honesty from your mate, I was with my high school sweetheart for 26 years and all I ever really wanted was honesty and the integrity that would come with it. I didn't get that because he never managed (nor wanted) to get sober and stay that way.By the time my marriage to him ended it was a horrendous mashup of alcoholism/ codependence and all the nastiness that comes with that mix. Ugly, ugly stuff.

I truly believe we have to be the change we want to see... if I want to receive honesty, I must be honest. This is now one of my strongest boundaries. Dishonesty is a deal breaker for me, in any relationship... friend, family, spouse, whatever... if you aren't honest with me - I can't trust you and if I can't trust you there is no space in my life for you. Period.

Try to remember that you are not the one responsible for his sobriety. Nothing you say or do can cause him to drink, that decision is totally and completely on him.

Trust and honesty go hand in hand... on both sides of the street.

Hugs and good luck to you.

Spence7471

So do be aware that the BB does allow secrets to be kept from loved ones where those secrets may cause further harm. Unfortunately what happened was that you found that list... and so now it has been made your knowledge...

As others have said, if you want honesty from him, you need to be honest in return... but as you seem to be willing to forgive, you should lead with that foot so he does not get defensive and feel like he is being attacked. Besides, unless he specifically identified who he cheated with, it could be he was referring to alcohol/drugs as his mistress (often heard in discussions)

aliciagr

I don't understand why people write these things down. Ive heard of this type of thing happening many times.

My husband cheated when he was drinking/drugging too. He didn't tell me the whole time we went through family therapy together. It came out later rather by accident. I was shocked and torn up over it. I think what bothered me the most was not the cheating when he was in such bad shape, but the fact he kept it from me when I thought he was being so sincere in our sessions together, and building trust and honesty again in our marriage. We were also in a good place when I found out. We did work through it though, and I know basically he was terrified to tell me. He did feel shame, guilt over it, but felt no good could come from sharing it with me. I was able to forgive him.

I think I would probably share what I found in the office. I don't know what I would do exactly. If it builds resentment or mistrust then I feel it would undermine the relationship and might build up into an explosion one day? If I thought I knew enough, knew it was an isolated thing, knew his mental state at the time. could let it go and was sure. then I might say nothing. (But I would get tested for STD)

Edit:
Good point Spence made, In AA they do say that a lot. You were cheating on your spouse with alcohol. Maybe that was all it was?? Maybe you should just stick a post it note on his list and say? Excuse me, was the mistress alcohol or an actual woman?

trailmix

Even infidelity? I would be surprised if AA would be supportive of that and from what I've read about making amends that's not my understanding but i'm sure many here are much more knowledgeable about AA than I am.

3Dognite, I think honesty is the best policy here. I don't think you even need to lead with your forgiveness. If he initially gets defensive about you reading his list, well, maybe he will need to forgive you, but certainly that seems do-able don't you think?

Givenup2018

3Dognite, this is a difficult call for you. If he is so many years sober, you guys have a chance though knowing what you know now only complicates matters. Some can leave the past in the past others cannot. I am one who falls into the latter category, I have never believed that alcoholics will always cheat and to me cheating is even worse than the alcoholism so that would be a deal breaker for me. Therefore it is entirely up to you. However trying to trust someone who obviously is not trustworthy (cheating is more to do with character than circumstances of drinking) is going to be very difficult.

Eauchiche

I know this is terrible for you, and I am so sorry!!!!
I have to ask you this: thinking objectively, is it better to not know about this and have a big secret between the two of you, or to know about it so you can deal with it together?
I hope and pray this all works out for healing in your marriage.

Spence7471

trailmix,

The BB does not distinguish the severity of one act versus another... it just requires that you share your secrets with someone... and where making amends would cause further pain it allows one to not make a direct amend. This is a step that is often done with the guidance of the sponsor to help ensure that no further pain is caused to others because of the disease.

The thing about the BB is that it is about the addict... not about those that have been wronged by them... making amends is not about making up to the person that was wronged.. it is about the addict coming clean about what they have done so the addict can move beyond the past and become a better person. Silent amends are often made in situations where the offense was so damaging that coming clean with it to the offended party will not help the person who was wronged and may cause additional pain. So in the case of adultery, a silent amend could be made where the addict promises to be loyal to their partner and to not place themselves in a position that would result in them to stray again.

aliciagr

This is the way I understand it also. Its a good reminder for family members because often people ask when will I get my amends for this list of things. a. b. c. d. e. and it never comes possibly because its not about the family members feelings or what they felt was a wrong. its about the addict who may not even remember some things? or understand how the family member felt about something specific?

This is why I think family therapy is a good option for everyone. Individual programs dont help heal the family unit, and there can be a lot of baggage/damage neither side knows how to address, or how to sort out because emotions are high, or feelings are never clearly shared. Im grateful we took that step because it helped our family so much.

tomsteve

except when to do so would injure them or others:

Usually, however, other people are involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr who would needlessly sacrifice others to save himself from the alcoholic pit.

Whatever the situation, we usually have to do something about it. If we are sure our wife does not know, should we tell her? Not always, we think. If she knows in a general way that we have been wild, should we tell her in detail? Undoubtedly we should admit our fault. She may insist on knowing all the particulars. She will want to know who the woman is and where she is. We feel we ought to say to her that we have no right to involve another person. We are sorry for what we have done and, God willing, it shall not be repeated. More than that we cannot do; we have no right to go further. Though there may be justifiable exceptions, and though we wish to lay down no rule of any sort, we have often found this the best course to take.
Yes, there is a long period of reconstruction ahead. We must take the lead. A remorseful mumbling that we are sorry won't fill the bill at all. We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them. Their defects may be glaring, but the chances are that our own actions are partly responsible. So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love.

Spence7471

Family therapy sessions were very helpful for me... and they even provided clarity to my wife during her recovery. One of the main things she missed out on during her first recovery was the emotional impact it had on those around her... sure she knew her actions were hurtful, but she did not get to "feel" that hurt. this time around, she got to feel my hurt.. and boy was that a different experience for her this time around. This was done in family sessions where i was allowed to express my hurt and anger and she had to listen to it and then respond to it... it was hard times for her, and theraputic for me.

I would strongly recommend that if anyone wants to try and save a relationship, that family counseling is highly recommended. If nothing else, it gives some insight into oneself.

NYCDoglvr

I think this is the basis of the issue.

trailmix

Thanks for the clarification TomSteve, I was hoping you would weigh in.

I guess for me, when I read this I wonder, where it says "except when to do so would injure them or others"

Theoretically that could cover each transgression (for lack of a better word) short of one where you could actually make it right. Like if you owed someone money and paid them back or had trashed their reputation and could confess (I read that one in the BB, although that might affect your family and others in a negative way).

I know it's complicated and I don't want to hijack the thread. Is it a grey area or is it much more transparent than that?

SparkleKitty

I think it presumes that one is attempting to do the steps with honesty, and not "game the system" in anyway, or to get out of making amends to people.

3Dognite

I really appreciate everyone's response to my post. I am not one who shares personal happenings with others. I really needed each of you so, Thank You! I agree with the majority of you that If I desire honesty from my Husband, I must be honest as well. And, that is what I am most comfortable with. I do believe that my Husband is keeping this from me because he is afraid of causing me more harm. I'm waiting on the right time to have this discussion with him, hopefully this weekend.

3Dognite

Agree!

aliciagr

Since I was a wife who was cheated on, let me just say - there is not an amends that you can give to a wife when you have cheated with another woman.

My husband and I are not AA people, however I feel many of the steps are practical concepts one normally learns through their religion, or parents as moral and ethical beliefs are formed.

I know several AA members are debating whats in the AA book and what it means, but I guess I would ask what it would think a proper amends would be if you have broke your wedding vows, broke that commitment?

Is admitting it an amends?
Is a sincere Im sorry, and will answer any question you have - an amends?
Vowing never to do it again and making promises for the future ? Surely that cant be an amends?

The only time I can see what I would call an amends in this would be if the wife basically knew there was cheating and he finally broke down admitted it, and confessed to lying . All while he knew you were tormented by not knowing, dealing with rumors, or other suspicions .
Telling the truth could be an amends in a way I suppose.

The honesty of recovery in my opinion is realizing what the addiction did, realizing the things you did when controlled by substances, realizing with sadness how you deviated from your morals, values and sank to this level where you yourself are ashamed, saddened, and find yourself dedicated to becoming more solid and firm in who you are as a person, and what you stand for. Its an internal job,

In some ways I wish I had never found out. But in the end, having that happen, being that broken - made us both fight to rebuild and solidify our values and principles as individuals and as a couple. Once I knew who my husband was again in his soul, his core. That was all I needed from him,

AnvilheadII

have you considered that maybe he knew it was there and left it for you to find anyway? most people don't keep pages or print outs of their step work or other self-help efforts lying around on the floor of their office.