Untangling abuse and addiction.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Untangling abuse and addiction.
From my time on SR (what a wonderful community), I have read so many posts about abuse and addiction that I thought I would make a comment about how I feel about it. Here's my short comment: I don't care what CAUSES the abuse, I only care that the abuse is happening and that it should not be tolerated.
Here's my long comment: Whenever I read a post by a newcomer where they say, "the addict in my life has done such and such an abusive thing, what can I do to help them be cured of their addiction?" I feel like not just saying that nothing you do can cure them of anything, but also, just because violent behavior tends to accompany addiction, do not assume that abuse and addiction are mutually exclusive. The selfishness, irresponsibility, manipulation, and denial that come along with addiction can cause situations that are horrifyingly unfair to friends and family of the addict, but addiction is not responsible for abuse. The abuser is responsible for abuse.
The difference is that an abusive person is going to be abusive when stone-cold sober... and I mean, the guy has been sober for months, and is still acting like a creep. In my not-so-humble opinion, the dry-drunk theory can only take you so far. Because at some point, that is blaming the abusive behavior of someone who might actually be an abuser, on drugs or alcohol.
Abusers have different values than non-abusers. They see nothing inherently wrong with their behavior. They feel entitled. They do not respect your person-hood. They have a victim mentality and think that the world owes them something. They usually don't have friends or family that they are in contact with unless those people have something they can use (even if it's an occasional ego-massage). They often do not look dangerous and can come across as "gentle" or "passive" to people outside of their abusive relationship. This is an act. Furthermore, the narcissistic abuser often chooses intimate partners who are challenging, not passive. This is because they actually like a challenge... and what's the point of abusing a natural doormat? Abuser: "I am right, you are wrong." Doormat: "Cool. You are right!" See? No conflict.
Here's what Lundy Bancroft has to say about it:
Myth #17: "The alcohol is what makes him abusive. If I can get him to stay sober, our relationship will be fine".
The most important point to be aware of is this: Alcohol cannot create an abuser, and sobriety cannot cure one. The only way a man can overcome his abusiveness is by dealing with his abusiveness.
I am going to add: "by dealing with his abusiveness while sober". I am also going to add... if you think you ARE dealing with an abusive addict, do not wait around for them to sober up and then deal with their abusiveness. RUN. Make a safety plan: secure your finances, figure out a safe house to go to, research your local domestic violence support services (but always clear your browser history), talk to a trusted friend who will keep things secret for you while you make your exist plans, talk to your kids' schools if necessary, pack your secret bags, and then one day... run like heck and get a restraining order.
The reason that I feel like I need to address this is that while I was in my relationship, I went to various counselors and psychologists who kept trying to help me help the addict. Maybe if he feels more secure, he'll stop drugging. Maybe if he is less tired, he'll stop screaming at you. Maybe if he goes to the right doctor or gets on the right anti-depressants, he'll be more responsible. This is what happens when a master manipulator manipulates and abuses the health system -- he used the system to validate his behavior. The only thing he did not want to try was sobriety.... and maybe, changing his attitude about his intimate partner. He felt that he was a victim, always a victim. He spent so much time thinking about his feelings (and about how unfair people were to him) that therapy was useless to him. When I finally was able to untangle myself from him, I was scolded by his various counselors for treating him "outrageously". Apparently, leaving a violent man is outrageous (because it will make him more depressed and he already has depression)... and no, he wasn't "out of control" or "high" when he was being abusive, although he claimed he was. He was astute, aware, CALM, and articulate every single time he was abusive. When he was high, he was too "gone" to do anything other than make me fear for his life, which is a type of passive-aggressive abuse. He certainly could not scream at me when he was high. If I remember the time I was with him, I was so depressed I was contemplating suicide. I didn't think I could leave. Reading SR was the sanest thing I did. (Also, talking about the abuse and calling the police was sane too).
So if you think you ARE in an abusive relationship with anyone (addict or not), leave as soon as you can and when safe to do so. Preferably do it before the physical violence starts... because I guarantee you that it will eventually come to that as abuse is a spectrum. And please have an exit plan. Because leaving is when the abuse escalates. Abuse is about control. If you try to leave them, they have lost control over you and this puts them in a narcissistic rage. Do not think it will get better if you stay... and get counseling together, or if you adjust your behavior, or if he adjusts his behavior. Counseling with an abuser just gives the abuser the terminology to abuse you more -- they are not going to want to sincerely change, since they never thought that they had problematic behavior to begin with (they think YOU are the problem). You should not be expected to adjust your behavior, because your boundaries are probably already being eroded, and you don't need to keep shifting the goal posts for them until they own the whole field. You should not expect them to change their behavior... if they were thoughtful enough to do so, they would not be abusing you. Abuse always gets worse over time -- it will make you depressed, potentially suicidal, you might start self-medicating, or become or the victim of assault or eventually manslaughter. The end-game of addiction is to destroy oneself. The end-game of abuse is to destroy another person.
Do not think that your life is not worth it.
Your life is absolutely worth it and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Doesn't matter if it's an ignorant in-law, your child who misses their father, your local misinformed religious leader, an insensitive police officer, a woefully under-qualified psychologist, etc.. etc... don't let anyone tell you that you need to keep shifting the goal posts for someone who claims that they treat you the way they treat you because they are "drunk".
Note: I have used "he" and "him", a lot. While it is possible for women to be abusive too, it's statistically not as common in heterosexual relationships.
Here's my long comment: Whenever I read a post by a newcomer where they say, "the addict in my life has done such and such an abusive thing, what can I do to help them be cured of their addiction?" I feel like not just saying that nothing you do can cure them of anything, but also, just because violent behavior tends to accompany addiction, do not assume that abuse and addiction are mutually exclusive. The selfishness, irresponsibility, manipulation, and denial that come along with addiction can cause situations that are horrifyingly unfair to friends and family of the addict, but addiction is not responsible for abuse. The abuser is responsible for abuse.
The difference is that an abusive person is going to be abusive when stone-cold sober... and I mean, the guy has been sober for months, and is still acting like a creep. In my not-so-humble opinion, the dry-drunk theory can only take you so far. Because at some point, that is blaming the abusive behavior of someone who might actually be an abuser, on drugs or alcohol.
Abusers have different values than non-abusers. They see nothing inherently wrong with their behavior. They feel entitled. They do not respect your person-hood. They have a victim mentality and think that the world owes them something. They usually don't have friends or family that they are in contact with unless those people have something they can use (even if it's an occasional ego-massage). They often do not look dangerous and can come across as "gentle" or "passive" to people outside of their abusive relationship. This is an act. Furthermore, the narcissistic abuser often chooses intimate partners who are challenging, not passive. This is because they actually like a challenge... and what's the point of abusing a natural doormat? Abuser: "I am right, you are wrong." Doormat: "Cool. You are right!" See? No conflict.
Here's what Lundy Bancroft has to say about it:
Myth #17: "The alcohol is what makes him abusive. If I can get him to stay sober, our relationship will be fine".
The most important point to be aware of is this: Alcohol cannot create an abuser, and sobriety cannot cure one. The only way a man can overcome his abusiveness is by dealing with his abusiveness.
I am going to add: "by dealing with his abusiveness while sober". I am also going to add... if you think you ARE dealing with an abusive addict, do not wait around for them to sober up and then deal with their abusiveness. RUN. Make a safety plan: secure your finances, figure out a safe house to go to, research your local domestic violence support services (but always clear your browser history), talk to a trusted friend who will keep things secret for you while you make your exist plans, talk to your kids' schools if necessary, pack your secret bags, and then one day... run like heck and get a restraining order.
The reason that I feel like I need to address this is that while I was in my relationship, I went to various counselors and psychologists who kept trying to help me help the addict. Maybe if he feels more secure, he'll stop drugging. Maybe if he is less tired, he'll stop screaming at you. Maybe if he goes to the right doctor or gets on the right anti-depressants, he'll be more responsible. This is what happens when a master manipulator manipulates and abuses the health system -- he used the system to validate his behavior. The only thing he did not want to try was sobriety.... and maybe, changing his attitude about his intimate partner. He felt that he was a victim, always a victim. He spent so much time thinking about his feelings (and about how unfair people were to him) that therapy was useless to him. When I finally was able to untangle myself from him, I was scolded by his various counselors for treating him "outrageously". Apparently, leaving a violent man is outrageous (because it will make him more depressed and he already has depression)... and no, he wasn't "out of control" or "high" when he was being abusive, although he claimed he was. He was astute, aware, CALM, and articulate every single time he was abusive. When he was high, he was too "gone" to do anything other than make me fear for his life, which is a type of passive-aggressive abuse. He certainly could not scream at me when he was high. If I remember the time I was with him, I was so depressed I was contemplating suicide. I didn't think I could leave. Reading SR was the sanest thing I did. (Also, talking about the abuse and calling the police was sane too).
So if you think you ARE in an abusive relationship with anyone (addict or not), leave as soon as you can and when safe to do so. Preferably do it before the physical violence starts... because I guarantee you that it will eventually come to that as abuse is a spectrum. And please have an exit plan. Because leaving is when the abuse escalates. Abuse is about control. If you try to leave them, they have lost control over you and this puts them in a narcissistic rage. Do not think it will get better if you stay... and get counseling together, or if you adjust your behavior, or if he adjusts his behavior. Counseling with an abuser just gives the abuser the terminology to abuse you more -- they are not going to want to sincerely change, since they never thought that they had problematic behavior to begin with (they think YOU are the problem). You should not be expected to adjust your behavior, because your boundaries are probably already being eroded, and you don't need to keep shifting the goal posts for them until they own the whole field. You should not expect them to change their behavior... if they were thoughtful enough to do so, they would not be abusing you. Abuse always gets worse over time -- it will make you depressed, potentially suicidal, you might start self-medicating, or become or the victim of assault or eventually manslaughter. The end-game of addiction is to destroy oneself. The end-game of abuse is to destroy another person.
Do not think that your life is not worth it.
Your life is absolutely worth it and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Doesn't matter if it's an ignorant in-law, your child who misses their father, your local misinformed religious leader, an insensitive police officer, a woefully under-qualified psychologist, etc.. etc... don't let anyone tell you that you need to keep shifting the goal posts for someone who claims that they treat you the way they treat you because they are "drunk".
Note: I have used "he" and "him", a lot. While it is possible for women to be abusive too, it's statistically not as common in heterosexual relationships.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 284
"They often do not look dangerous and can come across as "gentle" or "passive" to people outside of their abusive relationship. This is an act. Furthermore, the narcissistic abuser often chooses intimate partners who are challenging, not passive."
OMG - wow. This hit so close to home I have goosebumps all over. My STBXAH was/is so quiet to the outside world, everyone was shocked when I finally left and some learned of what had been going on behind closed doors. Most people have said to me "I didn't even know he would have that in him." I think because I have a more out-going, strong personality there are many who do not believe the abuse and that I am the crazy one who blew it all out of proportion...
seriously, wow.
OMG - wow. This hit so close to home I have goosebumps all over. My STBXAH was/is so quiet to the outside world, everyone was shocked when I finally left and some learned of what had been going on behind closed doors. Most people have said to me "I didn't even know he would have that in him." I think because I have a more out-going, strong personality there are many who do not believe the abuse and that I am the crazy one who blew it all out of proportion...
seriously, wow.
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
violent behavior tends to accompany addiction
Obviously the therapists you saw knew nothing about alcoholism/addiction.
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Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,913
NYC, the section that you quoted took the phrase out of turn. I don't hear her saying that all alcoholics are abusive. Ophelia's full sentence was " I feel like not just saying that nothing you do can cure them of anything, but also, just because violent behavior tends to accompany addiction, do not assume that abuse and addiction are mutually exclusive. " My take on it is that she's noting that just because a new member is writing because they're concerned with the abusive behavior shown while their qualifier is drunk, it doesn't mean that it's the alcohol that's causing the abusive behavior.
Which was certainly the case with AXH. I was lucky. The addiction counselor that I went to for help in learning how to communicate with AXH told me that she could help me understand how addiction works, but that I would benefit from talking with the local DV and sexual abuse crisis centers. I initially went to her because I thought that what AXH was like was because he was drinking and if he'd only stop, he'd be nice again. I thought that if I learned how to cut through the alcohol with the right words, he'd hear how his behavior hurt me and he'd stop.
That's not the way abuse works, but I didn't know that. After a couple years of counseling, I was able to look back to see how his behavior while not drunk was also abusive, if in a more controlling manner rather than explosive anger manner. I was able to look back and acknowledge that some of the worst things he did to me, he did while not drinking. I was also able to see that he knew what he was doing, even when he was drunk. It wasn't a black out, it wasn't the alcohol. He knew just when to stop in order to not leave anything that would be visible at work.
Which was certainly the case with AXH. I was lucky. The addiction counselor that I went to for help in learning how to communicate with AXH told me that she could help me understand how addiction works, but that I would benefit from talking with the local DV and sexual abuse crisis centers. I initially went to her because I thought that what AXH was like was because he was drinking and if he'd only stop, he'd be nice again. I thought that if I learned how to cut through the alcohol with the right words, he'd hear how his behavior hurt me and he'd stop.
That's not the way abuse works, but I didn't know that. After a couple years of counseling, I was able to look back to see how his behavior while not drunk was also abusive, if in a more controlling manner rather than explosive anger manner. I was able to look back and acknowledge that some of the worst things he did to me, he did while not drinking. I was also able to see that he knew what he was doing, even when he was drunk. It wasn't a black out, it wasn't the alcohol. He knew just when to stop in order to not leave anything that would be visible at work.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by theuncertainty 
NYC, the section that you quoted took the phrase out of turn. I don't hear her saying that all alcoholics are abusive. Ophelia's full sentence was " I feel like not just saying that nothing you do can cure them of anything, but also, just because violent behavior tends to accompany addiction, do not assume that abuse and addiction are mutually exclusive. " My take on it is that she's noting that just because a new member is writing because they're concerned with the abusive behavior shown while their qualifier is drunk, it doesn't mean that it's the alcohol that's causing the abusive behavior.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr
Not in my experience. I've known plenty of drunks who were self-centered, irresponsible and dishonest but they weren't violent which implies harming someone else. More pathetic than anything else. I'm sure there are active alcoholics who are abusive, but it's not a given.
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Join Date: Feb 2018
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You just typed out my story. I have my soon to be ex husband enough benefit of doubt and blamed his alcohol for abuse . It wasn't. I had to get to the point of being suicidal to Get out and take a step back and see the whole picture.
He blamed me from the very beginning for calling the cops on him when he was drunk out of his mind and going to hit me. He used that as an excuse to be a jerk to me in whichever way he could. He financially held me hostage. First asked me to put all my income into my student loans and even threatened divorce when I said I wanted to keep some money aside. When I was financially dependent on him, he found an excuse everytime I asked him to add me to his bank account. He said he had given me a credit card and that was enough but then he threatened to take that away when I wouldn't do something the way he wanted or stood up against his alcoholism. Mind you , we are both professionals and financially stable but he used my vulnerability against me to the best of his ability.
I was taunted for buying a pair of shoes. I was taunted for spending a dollar more on a can of anything in the grocery store. I work full time and I was taunted for not coming back home on time (5:30pm) and cooking him a meal. I was eventually told that he had no reason to marry me if I wasn't even going to cook and clean for him.
THAT is what abuse will do to you.
It will take away every last shred of self respect from you. It will take away every sense of sanity from you. It will leave you wondering what happened because to the world - he is the perfect , quiet boss. He is rich , good looking , smart . To the world , there is no way he abused me . What I am saying is all made up and I am trying to take his money.
In his court documents , he called
Me fraudulent for marrying him for money . He is the poor victim. That is what abuse will do to you and NO I will not blame alcohol anymore
He blamed me from the very beginning for calling the cops on him when he was drunk out of his mind and going to hit me. He used that as an excuse to be a jerk to me in whichever way he could. He financially held me hostage. First asked me to put all my income into my student loans and even threatened divorce when I said I wanted to keep some money aside. When I was financially dependent on him, he found an excuse everytime I asked him to add me to his bank account. He said he had given me a credit card and that was enough but then he threatened to take that away when I wouldn't do something the way he wanted or stood up against his alcoholism. Mind you , we are both professionals and financially stable but he used my vulnerability against me to the best of his ability.
I was taunted for buying a pair of shoes. I was taunted for spending a dollar more on a can of anything in the grocery store. I work full time and I was taunted for not coming back home on time (5:30pm) and cooking him a meal. I was eventually told that he had no reason to marry me if I wasn't even going to cook and clean for him.
THAT is what abuse will do to you.
It will take away every last shred of self respect from you. It will take away every sense of sanity from you. It will leave you wondering what happened because to the world - he is the perfect , quiet boss. He is rich , good looking , smart . To the world , there is no way he abused me . What I am saying is all made up and I am trying to take his money.
In his court documents , he called
Me fraudulent for marrying him for money . He is the poor victim. That is what abuse will do to you and NO I will not blame alcohol anymore
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr
Obviously the therapists you saw knew nothing about alcoholism/addiction.
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I copied "You should not expect them to change behaviour. ..if they were thoughtful enough to do so, they would not be abusing you." I think though they pick people who are intimidated depending on their needs. I am pretty passive and there to serve. He has never wanted me to speak up for my needs.
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 52
Yes, I agree OP as this was the case for me as well. For the longest time I thought if my ex would just quit drinking things would be fine. When I really took a step back and looked at the situation as a whole I noticed that his abusive behavior was going to be there if he drank or not and really did not have anything to do with the alcohol. He has this huge sense of entitlement that everybody owes him something. We have been divorced for 3 months now and I still continue to get texts from him that I owe him when something does not go his way. (I got one yesterday as a matter of fact.)
When we were married and lived together I knew his behavior was abusive. I did not really realize the extent of it until I moved out was able to process everything. I think the hope that if he would quit drinking that the abuse would stop is what kept me in the relationship for so long. Once I was able to differentiate between the two I was able to come with terms that drinking was not the only issue and I just needed to leave the relationship. In the end my fear of him hurting or killing me is one of the main reasons I left.
When we were married and lived together I knew his behavior was abusive. I did not really realize the extent of it until I moved out was able to process everything. I think the hope that if he would quit drinking that the abuse would stop is what kept me in the relationship for so long. Once I was able to differentiate between the two I was able to come with terms that drinking was not the only issue and I just needed to leave the relationship. In the end my fear of him hurting or killing me is one of the main reasons I left.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Mum22. I am glad you left and are safe. I know recovering alcoholics who are nothing like abusers even though they fully admit that their behavior was completely unacceptable, so there's a huge difference. I hope that anyone who has to deal with abuse (especially if they have children) are able to leave their relationships safely. I also hope that there are people who are able to change their abusive behaviors... but I'm not an expert and the "experts" seem to think it's unlikely.
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