Had me some group - owch!
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Had me some group - owch!
Part of the aftercare program for Mrs Sectus's rehab involves group sessions for family of addicts. 2 facilitators, and a small group of parents, spouses and relatives of people who have been through the program there.
Mrs Sectus has her own group pretty much at the same time, so we drove up together.
I was pretty upbeat going in. I have been feeling that while there is a lot of work that needs covering, this is something that I can at least give a damn good try. Shoulders to the wheel, kind of thing.
And then the stories came, and the recognition. One person after another who has been through all kinds of hell, living with an addict, trying to piece together their sanity and self-respect. All of them allowed themselves to be treated like doormats to some degree, all of them allowed themselves to accept unacceptable stuff over years, and now they are slowly trying to pick up the pieces.
I was really shaken afterwards. I recognized quite a bit of the things the others had been through. I always downplayed it to myself. I did not consider it quite so bad. But when I heard someone else say it, and then another, and then another, I felt so bad for them. Sure, they made their own choices. But that choice was not to destroy their lives with drink or drugs or whatnot. It was to stay with someone else who did that to themselves, dragging them along in their madness.
I made that choice too.
One person has made some progress. The facilitators were very proud of her. It had not been easy: she had to overcome a lot of internal obstacles, out-face a lot of fear and guilt to do it. She had been brave and took a step even though it was hard.
It was simply having said to her recovering addicted husband that it might be a good idea to tell the psychologist who was going to asses her child for autism that her father had addiction issues.
That really struck home. I have not been able to process that yet. Her big win, her breakthrough, the step she managed to take, was to have the right to say that. It cost her a big fight, loads of nerves, stress and a few nights of cold shoulder. She has been through the wringer with an addict, has 2 young children whom she had to look after alone when he was off chasing his addiction-dragon, and now here she is fighting like hell for such a tiny piece of self-respect, such a small piece of voice, such a small step forward.
I cannot express how deeply that has shaken me.
To make matters worse, Mrs Sectus had herself a great group session. She was riding high, going on about all the people she met in rehab, all bubbly and full of chat. They love her at rehab. She has that effect on people: people warm to her quickly.
I tried to chat along, but I felt myself shutting down more and more.
She wanted to talk about it. I tried. I explained how shocked I was at how hard these partners have to fight for basic self-respect. I used the one I described as an example. She just said "Hm. Sounds dysfunctional".
The way she said it told me that as far as she was concerned, that had nothing at all to do with her. That was just some doormat and her dysfunctional relationship.
I just said yeah, and dropped the subject. She tried again later, but I told her I would rather work it out myself.
That person in that meeting fighting for so little was me, too.
But I knew then and there that telling her that would get me nowhere.
So yeah, I guess that chicken came home to roost. Some of you told me it would. But knowing and experiencing it are two different things.
So today I feel pissed off at all addicts, and feel that they are a bunch of jerks, as self-centered as spinning tops even when they are recovering. I will get over my self-pity soon enough, and then I will begin to win my own little battles. But for now they can all go take a long walk down a short pier for all I am concerned.
Mrs Sectus has her own group pretty much at the same time, so we drove up together.
I was pretty upbeat going in. I have been feeling that while there is a lot of work that needs covering, this is something that I can at least give a damn good try. Shoulders to the wheel, kind of thing.
And then the stories came, and the recognition. One person after another who has been through all kinds of hell, living with an addict, trying to piece together their sanity and self-respect. All of them allowed themselves to be treated like doormats to some degree, all of them allowed themselves to accept unacceptable stuff over years, and now they are slowly trying to pick up the pieces.
I was really shaken afterwards. I recognized quite a bit of the things the others had been through. I always downplayed it to myself. I did not consider it quite so bad. But when I heard someone else say it, and then another, and then another, I felt so bad for them. Sure, they made their own choices. But that choice was not to destroy their lives with drink or drugs or whatnot. It was to stay with someone else who did that to themselves, dragging them along in their madness.
I made that choice too.
One person has made some progress. The facilitators were very proud of her. It had not been easy: she had to overcome a lot of internal obstacles, out-face a lot of fear and guilt to do it. She had been brave and took a step even though it was hard.
It was simply having said to her recovering addicted husband that it might be a good idea to tell the psychologist who was going to asses her child for autism that her father had addiction issues.
That really struck home. I have not been able to process that yet. Her big win, her breakthrough, the step she managed to take, was to have the right to say that. It cost her a big fight, loads of nerves, stress and a few nights of cold shoulder. She has been through the wringer with an addict, has 2 young children whom she had to look after alone when he was off chasing his addiction-dragon, and now here she is fighting like hell for such a tiny piece of self-respect, such a small piece of voice, such a small step forward.
I cannot express how deeply that has shaken me.
To make matters worse, Mrs Sectus had herself a great group session. She was riding high, going on about all the people she met in rehab, all bubbly and full of chat. They love her at rehab. She has that effect on people: people warm to her quickly.
I tried to chat along, but I felt myself shutting down more and more.
She wanted to talk about it. I tried. I explained how shocked I was at how hard these partners have to fight for basic self-respect. I used the one I described as an example. She just said "Hm. Sounds dysfunctional".
The way she said it told me that as far as she was concerned, that had nothing at all to do with her. That was just some doormat and her dysfunctional relationship.
I just said yeah, and dropped the subject. She tried again later, but I told her I would rather work it out myself.
That person in that meeting fighting for so little was me, too.
But I knew then and there that telling her that would get me nowhere.
So yeah, I guess that chicken came home to roost. Some of you told me it would. But knowing and experiencing it are two different things.
So today I feel pissed off at all addicts, and feel that they are a bunch of jerks, as self-centered as spinning tops even when they are recovering. I will get over my self-pity soon enough, and then I will begin to win my own little battles. But for now they can all go take a long walk down a short pier for all I am concerned.
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vivisectus.....I don't think that you come across as "self pity"......
I see it as you expressing/describing your own feelings on the subject.....
I understand that feeling...anger at anything having to do with alcohol....
Once one gets a little distance from the vortex with their own alcoholic, it is amazing how differently things begin to look (and feel).
I have heard so many alcoholics, who were in treatment for a while...say how difficult it was to begin to realize the awful things they have done to their loved ones....very painful, and hard to look at. I have, also, heard that this can be on of the challenges for them to face this---so much so, that they may be vulnerable to relapse, as a way of avoiding their own feelings of guilt, regret, sadness, shame....Shame seems to be a big issue with alcoholics...one that they often try to deny, hide, avoid facing.....
I am going to go out on a limb, here....I notice that the word, "doormat", came up here....From your writing, it sounds to me like you are a person who has always taken pride--justifiable pride--in being a take charge, handle anything, strong person....?
If this is true....then, I wonder how weird it might feel to see someone else who has been so beaten down...and, realize that you might have some of the same kinds of feelings as they do....that it might be in sharp contrast to your own self image....a real blow to your own ego....?
I am just spitballing, here.....
I see it as you expressing/describing your own feelings on the subject.....
I understand that feeling...anger at anything having to do with alcohol....
Once one gets a little distance from the vortex with their own alcoholic, it is amazing how differently things begin to look (and feel).
I have heard so many alcoholics, who were in treatment for a while...say how difficult it was to begin to realize the awful things they have done to their loved ones....very painful, and hard to look at. I have, also, heard that this can be on of the challenges for them to face this---so much so, that they may be vulnerable to relapse, as a way of avoiding their own feelings of guilt, regret, sadness, shame....Shame seems to be a big issue with alcoholics...one that they often try to deny, hide, avoid facing.....
I am going to go out on a limb, here....I notice that the word, "doormat", came up here....From your writing, it sounds to me like you are a person who has always taken pride--justifiable pride--in being a take charge, handle anything, strong person....?
If this is true....then, I wonder how weird it might feel to see someone else who has been so beaten down...and, realize that you might have some of the same kinds of feelings as they do....that it might be in sharp contrast to your own self image....a real blow to your own ego....?
I am just spitballing, here.....
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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I think dandylion may be right about shame. In my experience, there was a big disconnect between how I behaved in the world outside home (competent, organized, assertive) and how I behaved at home. I remember my ex's Four Great Prohibitions, which he proclaimed as what he "needed" in order to stay in the marriage and maybe not drink quite so much:
1. You don't touch me (and I don't mean like sex - that had left the barn ages ago - I mean like a pat on the shoulder or brushing against him by accident).
2. You don't cook anything and expect me or Kid to eat it. (You can cook food for yourself if you want but you can't make meals for both of us. And your food can't touch mine in the fridge).
3. You, Kid and I don't go anywhere or do anything as a family unit.
4. You don't touch or move any of my things (literally, do not let any part of your body come in contact with anything that is "mine" [he made an exemption for me doing his laundry and dishes])
And there was a time when I actually went along with this because I thought "this is what he needs to feel secure and less anxious, and if he feels secure, he won't drink as much".
The turning point came one day when I was wearing a couple of keys on a lanyard around my neck and the keys accidentally brushed against his car. I don't mean I took out a key and gouged his car, I mean the metal surface of the key contacted the surface of the paint for less than half a second. Ex was present, and he was horrified. At that point, I realized "all these restrictions on what I can and can't do are insane".
My point is that I had never ever thought of myself as a doormat, but here I was behaving like one. It's a real shock to one's sense of self - to realize that I have not been acting like the rational and assertive person I think I am, but like a passive victim, doing whatever her husband wants to try to keep him from drinking.
If you are struck and shaken by seeing similar behavior from people in the therapy group, it might be the same sort of self-concept shock - if I recognize something of myself in these people - and these people are "doormats" - then perhaps I've become something like a doormat too? - and I'm really angry with my wife for putting me in this position.
1. You don't touch me (and I don't mean like sex - that had left the barn ages ago - I mean like a pat on the shoulder or brushing against him by accident).
2. You don't cook anything and expect me or Kid to eat it. (You can cook food for yourself if you want but you can't make meals for both of us. And your food can't touch mine in the fridge).
3. You, Kid and I don't go anywhere or do anything as a family unit.
4. You don't touch or move any of my things (literally, do not let any part of your body come in contact with anything that is "mine" [he made an exemption for me doing his laundry and dishes])
And there was a time when I actually went along with this because I thought "this is what he needs to feel secure and less anxious, and if he feels secure, he won't drink as much".
The turning point came one day when I was wearing a couple of keys on a lanyard around my neck and the keys accidentally brushed against his car. I don't mean I took out a key and gouged his car, I mean the metal surface of the key contacted the surface of the paint for less than half a second. Ex was present, and he was horrified. At that point, I realized "all these restrictions on what I can and can't do are insane".
My point is that I had never ever thought of myself as a doormat, but here I was behaving like one. It's a real shock to one's sense of self - to realize that I have not been acting like the rational and assertive person I think I am, but like a passive victim, doing whatever her husband wants to try to keep him from drinking.
If you are struck and shaken by seeing similar behavior from people in the therapy group, it might be the same sort of self-concept shock - if I recognize something of myself in these people - and these people are "doormats" - then perhaps I've become something like a doormat too? - and I'm really angry with my wife for putting me in this position.
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Join Date: Oct 2017
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Vivisectus: thank you so much for this post!!! It is such a reminder of what alcoholism does to the rest of us - not the alcoholics (who are just too caught up in their own mess to deal with anything), but to the friends, family and loved ones who allow themselves to be pulled along for the ride. I hate admitting that I had a choice in this, now that I'm finally coming to my senses, I keep wondering what on earth had me pinned to that relationship, why was I willing to stay for so long and at such an expense to myself.
"That person in that meeting fighting for so little was me, too." That sentence just made me want to cry ... and to throw up .. because that was me too. And now I am inching back towards self-respect....inching. My huge lightbulb moment was finding SR. By reading the posts and all the information, I finally, finally started understanding how serious the effects of alcoholism are ... on us. My XAP told me that it was a private affair and that I was not to speak of it with anyone - because that would be a betrayal of his trust. So, I just kept silent - I spoke to my mother (but felt like I was breaking a sacred rule, so it was always stressful), but I wouldn't speak honestly to anyone else about my feelings - I would talk about my hopes and dreams for the relationship, about his recovery (or non-recovery), but I never spoke about how I was truly feeling : my loss of worth, my life that had become twisted into a pretzel just to avoid conflict and criticism.
I know that it must be painful and challenging, but I am glad you are going to these meetings, I hope that they help to see that you are not alone - and that you have a right to every single emotion that you are feeling. I don't see any self-pity in your post, I see someone who is doing the very best for themselves and coming to grips with the reality of their situation. Sending you hugs, peace and strength.
"That person in that meeting fighting for so little was me, too." That sentence just made me want to cry ... and to throw up .. because that was me too. And now I am inching back towards self-respect....inching. My huge lightbulb moment was finding SR. By reading the posts and all the information, I finally, finally started understanding how serious the effects of alcoholism are ... on us. My XAP told me that it was a private affair and that I was not to speak of it with anyone - because that would be a betrayal of his trust. So, I just kept silent - I spoke to my mother (but felt like I was breaking a sacred rule, so it was always stressful), but I wouldn't speak honestly to anyone else about my feelings - I would talk about my hopes and dreams for the relationship, about his recovery (or non-recovery), but I never spoke about how I was truly feeling : my loss of worth, my life that had become twisted into a pretzel just to avoid conflict and criticism.
I know that it must be painful and challenging, but I am glad you are going to these meetings, I hope that they help to see that you are not alone - and that you have a right to every single emotion that you are feeling. I don't see any self-pity in your post, I see someone who is doing the very best for themselves and coming to grips with the reality of their situation. Sending you hugs, peace and strength.
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Join Date: Sep 2017
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Vivisectus thank you so much for writing this! And to everyone who replied. This is me, too. It’s hard to own.
I’m an intelligent professional, successful and respected in my field. I didn’t start out where I ended up. None of us did.
Was I too generous, trying to take care of others at the expense of myself? How did this happen? I never thought of myself as someone who would allow herself to be diminished, neglected or abused for someone else’s benefit, no matter who that was.
At some level it’s important to understand how we got where we are, but then again we are where we are and there’s a lot of little things we can do to start moving out of that place. Like your friend in group is doing. Those things seem so small, but hen again, small things happening gradually over time is probably a lot of how we all ended up needing the awesome support we get from each other right here on this forum.
Big hugs
I’m an intelligent professional, successful and respected in my field. I didn’t start out where I ended up. None of us did.
Was I too generous, trying to take care of others at the expense of myself? How did this happen? I never thought of myself as someone who would allow herself to be diminished, neglected or abused for someone else’s benefit, no matter who that was.
At some level it’s important to understand how we got where we are, but then again we are where we are and there’s a lot of little things we can do to start moving out of that place. Like your friend in group is doing. Those things seem so small, but hen again, small things happening gradually over time is probably a lot of how we all ended up needing the awesome support we get from each other right here on this forum.
Big hugs
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 26
Love your post Nola!!! A whole bunch of little things got us in and a whole bunch of little things can get us out! 
I keep looking for the big shifts - time to start patting myself on the back for the little things and keep moving forward.
Sending you a great big hug.
I keep looking for the big shifts - time to start patting myself on the back for the little things and keep moving forward. Sending you a great big hug.
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Seeing this "weakness" in myself really took my breath away. I really started to understand how I really WAS that frog, adjusting degree by degree over so much time.
This is a really BIG awareness to make & so beautifully translated here Viv. Thanks so much for taking the time to share!!
This is a really BIG awareness to make & so beautifully translated here Viv. Thanks so much for taking the time to share!!
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Yes. I always say that ask yourself what you would tell your child to put up with, how to react, if they had a spouse treating they and their family that way.
That puts in in perspective pretty quickly. I would tell my child to kick to the curb anyone treating she or my future grandchildren that I hope to have one day the way I was treated, and the way my children were treated.
That puts in in perspective pretty quickly. I would tell my child to kick to the curb anyone treating she or my future grandchildren that I hope to have one day the way I was treated, and the way my children were treated.
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I am going to go out on a limb, here....I notice that the word, "doormat", came up here....From your writing, it sounds to me like you are a person who has always taken pride--justifiable pride--in being a take charge, handle anything, strong person....?
If this is true....then, I wonder how weird it might feel to see someone else who has been so beaten down...and, realize that you might have some of the same kinds of feelings as they do....that it might be in sharp contrast to your own self image....a real blow to your own ego....?
If this is true....then, I wonder how weird it might feel to see someone else who has been so beaten down...and, realize that you might have some of the same kinds of feelings as they do....that it might be in sharp contrast to your own self image....a real blow to your own ego....?
I tend to avoid confrontations, often too much. There is a flipside to that as well, where I have had enough and am determined to have it out. But often I am too resentful at that point, because I did not express what I did not like clearly enough before.
It wasn't so much a blow to my self-image. It was more that I saw what I see as a weak point in myself written out large, in multiple people, I think.
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And yet - I did end up talking about it. I left it until the next day when I would be able to do it more calmly. It took a bit of pushing through the expected resistance, and I felt the urge to give up on it and withdraw and nurse a feeling of being misunderstood. But I did end up doing it. And now I feel a bit better about it.
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Mr. Sectus, may I call you Mr. Sectus?
Anyway, Mr. Sectus, I am glad to hear you were able to talk to Mrs. Sectus about how your group went and your own realizations. When I have had those moments in my own life, it has rather taken the wind out of my sails for a bit.
Clear and calm communication is so vital to healing any relationship, in my opinion. I hope you all have some fun this weekend!
Anyway, Mr. Sectus, I am glad to hear you were able to talk to Mrs. Sectus about how your group went and your own realizations. When I have had those moments in my own life, it has rather taken the wind out of my sails for a bit.
Clear and calm communication is so vital to healing any relationship, in my opinion. I hope you all have some fun this weekend!
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Join Date: Dec 2016
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Viv - Thank you for this post. It's powerful and it's one of my all time favorites. This one and another from Honeypig that I saw this morning are making me feel especially grateful for this resource and for all of you today. I don't know that I would be in a place of getting healthier and happier without you all.
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Originally Posted by Seren 
Mr. Sectus, may I call you Mr. Sectus?
Anyway, Mr. Sectus, I am glad to hear you were able to talk to Mrs. Sectus about how your group went and your own realizations. When I have had those moments in my own life, it has rather taken the wind out of my sails for a bit.
Clear and calm communication is so vital to healing any relationship, in my opinion. I hope you all have some fun this weekend!
Anyway, Mr. Sectus, I am glad to hear you were able to talk to Mrs. Sectus about how your group went and your own realizations. When I have had those moments in my own life, it has rather taken the wind out of my sails for a bit.
Clear and calm communication is so vital to healing any relationship, in my opinion. I hope you all have some fun this weekend!
I really am, too!
does that make the kids Sectus JR and the Vivisectettes, I wonder?
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