paragonlost

Lets say you had a friend whom you knew was having issues with drinking. You wanted this person to stop because you cared about them. Would you be upset if you made a deal with them ( for example if they drank you would start an intervention) and then they lied to you about their drinking only becasue they didn't want the intervention to happen. Would you be upset that they weren't honest with you?

Gabe

Paragon, I don't make deals with active alcoholics. And I don't expect honesty from them either. They aren't capable of it. I can't ask someone for what they can't give me. It took me a very long time to learn those two simple things.

Ann

Ditto to what Gabe said. You are trying to make a deal with someone incapable of keeping it. That will only lead to disappointment every time.

Hugs
Ann

paragonlost

Wow to me that seems almost harsh to say you wouldn't expect honesty. But in a way I can understand it. I just I guess I know I am honest with friends, at least p to this point about how much and how oftern I drink even if I know its not the response they are wanting to hear.

Sigh

Truth is suspended when dealing with someone active in addiction.

No, I would not let it hurt my feelings, because it's not personal.

Paragon, as much as you wish this person to stop because you care about them, it will not happen unless that person decides they are ready to handle their own addiction.


sigh

jessieandme2003

Paragon, if you keep reading here you will find that we all eventually learn that the alcoholic in our life is not doing anything they do 'to' us, and they also won't do anything they do 'for' us.

Those who they love, or love them, have no way to control them, no way to influence their behavior. But how we try, and then hurt as a result!

The alcoholic can and will only ever change their drinking behaviors when they are no longer able to convince themselves they are in control. Until they truly believe that they are not going to be ok, they keep drinking. And they can really kid themselves in spite of piles of evidence in front of them!

Denial keeps most of them from ever reaching that point of admitting powerlessness over their drinking.

Most of us here have tried a zillion things to break through that incredible forcefield of denial they have.

Learning to not feel hurt by their actions, or responsible for them in any way, is something we who care about them must do.

Blondie

It does sound harsh, but it is true. They cannot be honest to anyone, especially themselves. Alcoholism is a disease that just gets worse and worse and there is nothing that anyone can do, except the alcoholic themsevles. Many of us here have spent years with alcoholics and have tried to make them stop drinking. Some of us have even taken the alcoholic in our lives to rehab, made deals with them (all were broken), begged, cryed, left and came back, lectured them etc, etc, etc. All in order to get the alcoholic to stop drinking. None have worked. It is the alcoholic themselves that has to realize there is a problem.

Rella927

Ditto to what Gabe said and everyone else below! Paragon-I'm still fairly new in recovery myself (not addiction) and just recently out of a relationship with an alcoholic. What everyone has said above is true-they are the best at lying-or at least they think they are to must who are not in recovery they are! Please listen to others in here to what they say and I must say Gabe put it nice and simple.

QUOTE FROM GABE---"Paragon, I don't make deals with active alcoholics. And I don't expect honesty from them either. They aren't capable of it. I can't ask someone for what they can't give me. It took me a very long time to learn those two simple things." <---ditto for me hence why I'm going to court now-because I refuse to take anymore lies or "deals" from him to me-it is draining-so please becareful-

StandingStrong

Okay, let's be honest here.

Way in the beginning of our relationship with our addicts, we would have felt exactly as paragon lost feels now in posting this.
We all have come a long way from where we have been! Sometimes I read posts here and I think we must have forgotten what it feels like to be in that life before our recovery began.
paragonlost - my heart goes out to you! You are on the beginning of a very big rollercoaster ride with your friend. A journey that will teach you more about alcoholism and addiction than you ever cared to know.
I understand how hurt, upset, and disappointed you are that your friend has lied to you to cover up thier actions. However, if you read all you can and try to learn as much about addiction as you can, you will discover that lying and covering up are standard procedure when it comes to alcoholics, as well as other behaviours.
Please read through the site, their are some wonderful posts here as well as the power posts at the top of the page. Soon you'll understand why your friend lied to you and you'll come to a new understanding of the fact that you cannot help her, she must help herself.
(((hugs to you))).

paragonlost

Sorry if I confused anyone, in the case i presented way up there I am he alcoholic, I was just wondering if my friend who made this deal with me expected me to not keep it or thought I would. I know shes only trying to help but I can't stop alcohol is just too good

StandingStrong

I just read your other reply about you being both an alcoholic and a codepedant and was coming here to ask you if you were implying yourself in this particular thread.

I think your friend is hoping that she can help you to stop drinking. I think that she probably hopes that by getting you to make her a promise, that you will indeed keep it.
You're right though, she is only trying to help you. She obviously cares about you a great deal.
You say "I can't stop alcohol is just too good". I guess I have to wonder in your saying that - you can't stop? you won't try to stop? or do you just not want too? Or maybe you really don't view it as a problem at all?
In your first post, you suggested that the friend (being yourself) was having issues with alcohol......I guess I would say that you see you are having some issues - maybe it's time you deal with them.

paragonlost

I know its not right to turn to alcohol as an escape. I know the harm it can do int he long run. I literally can't stop, I've tried AA and honestly tried it. I guess I just don't know how to deal with it anymore

StandingStrong

Isn't the first step admitting that you have a problem? And then you go on to the steps of AA and work through them?
It takes a lot of dedication, a lot of hard work, and a lot of determination for anyone to give up something they are addicted too.
Did you have a sponsor when you went to AA? Just curious, why did you stop going? Have you tried seeing a counselor?

paragonlost

No I didn't have a sponsor, I just went with an open mind a few times and felt it wasn't something that would help me. I have seen a counselor yes, I just don't know I just wish I could stop and I know its going to take some work on my part

best

Trying to remember something here. No not being a wise guy either.
Maybe you can help me.

When is alcohol good?

When they pulled me over as I drove down the steet?
When I did those stupid things that I regreted the next day?
When my wallet became empty but the rent was still due?
My questions can become more harsh in my asking ....when is alcohol good?
Sorry but maybe it has been so long for me that I may be forgetting when alcohol was ever good.
Tastes great? As I remember it took me some time to start liking the taste.
I really can't remember any point in my life when alcohol was just so good.
I can remember so much of times when alcohol was Not good.

jalacola

Wow, BEST, I LOVED your post. My husband is the alcoholic in our family and it's so unfathomable for me to understand the disease of addiction b/c of all the bad things you mentioned. Like what about the drink is good? Sure, you lose some inhibitions, but that's not always okay. I can't say that I don't look back and smile at some of my moments under the influence. And I know my AH feels the same way. I can even look back on some of HIS moments under the influence and smile. But they are few and far between. There's definitely a problem when alcohol stops playing the role of "fun-maker" and takes on the role of "problem solver" as it did in my husband's life. Even though it would have been more appropriately labeled "problem maker TIMES 10!!"

best

Jalacola

Thing is though, when I was drinking I couldn't see the down side to my drinking.
When I started to see it, I went into denial for a time. Took me finding "my bottom" before I would accept the things I knew were truth.

jalacola

Paragon, I am not an alcoholic, so I am speaking from the mind of someone who cares deaply for one, as my husband is an A. And I sure hope you don't take offense to my post, as certainly none is meant from it.

It seems to me that you are full of excuses to drink. It seems that even though you realize that your drinking is a problem (hence, your being on this board), you aren't to the realization yet that you need to deal with it. My husband wasn't either. He is what they call a "high-bottom drunk." This means that nothing extremely bad has come as a result of his drinking. He didn't go to jail. He didn't get a DWI. He didn't lose his family. He did however try to commit suicide while in college under the influence. He did have a horrible wreck in college under the influence. Neither of these were his "bottom" b/c he didn't acknowledge a problem. There were many things in the past couple of years that I would have labeled his "bottom" but they weren't. His picking our 3 year old son up from his sitter ripped out of his mind at 4 o'clock. His picking a fist fight with his father while drunk outside his sister's birthday party in front of all of his family and her friends. His leaving the hospital the evening after I had our baby girl to go to the liquor store. His taking a shotgun and threatening to kill me and himself in front of our son. He wasn't even drunk that time...but we were arguing about his drinking and that's how much he refused to admit his problem.

You may be thinking "Oh, I'm not THAT bad." Of course not. And you know what? My AH wasn't always THAT bad. He used to be a "fun" drunk. He used to drink socially. Then it became to relax after a hard day. And to celebrate a good day. It eventually got to the point where there didn't need to be a good day or a bad day. He needed it to function in his mind, though everyone else could see he was hardly functioning. In his mind, he wasn't himself without it, where everyone else couldn't even recognize who he had become.

He went to rehab for 2 weeks almost 3 months ago. It wasn't a cure-all, b/c his attitude is similar to yours. He is insecure and uses alcohol as his coping tool for everything. He still drinks. How much? I'm not sure b/c he lies about it. Supposedly, today he now has 9 days sober. He doesn't have a sponsor (b/c he blew him off) and he isn't working the steps. I definitely don't think he has taken his last drink. Can you hear the lack of compassion in my tone regarding my husband? I haven't always been like that. But I have been let down so much I now have VERY low expectations so as not to always be so dissapointed. And I have to detach myself so as not to be so hurt. Do you want your family and your friends to eventually feel the way about you that we do about my AH? Of course not. But you are the one who is in control of it.

Your friend obviously cares about you. Enough so that she would want to do an intervention. AA works if you work it. Nothing is easy. You have to want this as badly as anything and be willing to work at it. Otherwise, you are only kidding yourself.

I will pray that you will find the courage to admit the problem enough to seek the tools necessary to live a happy, sober life. I will pray that you will recognize that you seek alternatives in your life where alcohol has played a key role. You are fortunate to have a friend who cares so deeply about you.

Keep coming back.

minnie

Hello? Would I be upset if a friend lied to me? Of course I would!

Knowing what I know now, would I be upset if an alcoholic lied to me? No. Because I know that alcoholics are liars. Mainly to themselves, actually. So why would I expect an alcoholic to tell me the truth, particularly about their drinking?

If you are not ready to be emotionally honest with yourself, then you are not ready to be honest with those around you.

Are you ready?

paragonlost

I really haven't had anything bad happen to me while I have been drinking, its all been an escape I guess thats why I say its good. I can however see your point. I'm just hoping I can make myself stop before I do hit " bottom"