aliciagr

I thought Id ask a question about spitefulness. Many here deal with dysfunctional relationships and emotional issues in their life so I was wondering what your thoughts were on the topic?

Wikipedia defines "spite" as:
To spite is to intentionally annoy, hurt, or upset. Spiteful words or actions are delivered in such a way that it is clear that the person is delivering them just to annoy, hurt, or upset.

Why do you think people feel spiteful, and what causes it? Ive been doing some reading and its often suggested it comes from low self esteem, from feeling that a person has been wronged (based on their own perception), jealousy, the need to exert control, and sometimes an innate tendency to be malicious, mean spirited.

My husband acted in petty spiteful ways when he was in active addiction. It makes sense it came from low self esteem, feeling stuck, and maybe anger towards others who were progressing and accomplishing things when he wasnt. Created a bitterness, which was not anyone else fault of course. It was his issue to own.

We were discussing this topic and Ive been thinking a lot about it. Generally Im happy for the people around me, and I try not to let petty things bother me. I recalled being a teenager and you know how girls have little groups and clicks sometimes competing against each other. I got caught up in that at one point and I know I acted childishly and felt spiteful at times. I think Ive outgrown it. For example I havent worked in my field for over a year. Now we have moved back and some of the people I used to work with have of course progressed in their career because they kept at it while I was not working at all. But I dont feel any bitterness. I feel happy for them, and can now look at myself and my choices. I try not to feel regret because thats useless. Instead I try to use that knowledge to set my own goals and create a map of how to get where i want to be in terms of career and family. My thoughts on career have also changed since we are starting a family, but I dont know maybe there will a tinge of jealousy down the road. I think I will have to re-balance the career goals I once had since I will be a working mother, not all devoted to career. Maybe not, no telling what the future holds.

My husband was not spiteful before his addiction took hold. He doesnt seem to be now.

Any thoughts on spite,what causes it, or experiences you have had in dealing with it, or overcoming it? Common with substance abuse disorders? A form of control, gas lighting, or just anger and jealousy showing itself due to a state of poor emotional and psych health?

dandylion

Alicia....I think of spitefulness as a way of "acting out" feelings that the person doesn't feel safe or capable of, in any other way...

My question...why are you getting all intellectual about "spitefulness", right now?
I know you said that you and your husband were discussing this....I get that much...but, why?
I wonder who brought it up? First?

Lol...I am thinking of all the m en I have known, in my life....and, I swear, I cannot think of any time any one of them wanted to talk about human psychology...(outside of a clinical or classroom situation).....
The only time it ever happened was when I brought it up...lol...

If your husband is jonesing to talk about these kinds of things.....he is one of the unusual ones...that I never got a look at.....lol....

AnvilheadII

believe this or not, but i've been known to be a bit spiteful on occasion....not in BIG ways, not like that stuff you see in movies where the person planned for YEARS to exact their revenge...but in small ways.

one example, years ago, when i was with last husband, there was something that i had asked him to - i can't recall WHAT it was, only that it was fairly important, but not like Def Com 4 important. i had reminded him a few times. then when the thing was supposed to have occurred and i asked him, he said "Oh sorry, I forgot".

well that just burned my biscuits....i tend to be She Who Does It All, so it wasn't like i had overly burdened the man and his insane schedule it was ONE thing.

roll the tape forward a few days, he gets up before me to go to work. i stay in bed. he asks, so where are my clean work jeans?

and i said.......drum roll please....oh sorry, i forgot. and rolled over the way.

that was spite. that was "i'll show you!" and "i'll teach you!".

my boss got on my @ss about my rather loose "arrival time" so out of spite, i've been getting into the office much earlier.

the above are examples of regular ole tit for tat spite.

people under the influence and in active addiction are wild cards. they have a primary mission - get more dope, use more dope. anyone around them who attempts to interfere or dare to point out that they are acting stupid and crazy, are now in the line of fire. the addiction itself is all about self-preservation and threats are not to be tolerated. and thus anything goes........

dandylion

Alicia....if you are talking about someone being spiteful when in active addiction....like Anvilhead is talking about....
sure...they are angry (especially if someone gets in their way of using).....so, naturally, they are spiteful.....

still the same principle applies, I think. Acting out feelings that they are fearful or don't have the ability to communicate more directly.....

aliciagr

Recovery is about looking at thoughts, feelings, emotions, behavior. Trying to improve coping skills, or break unhealthy patterns, and create a healthy inner voice. We have both been through a lot, and I dont know just a lot of in depth conversations evolve from it.

It wasnt a discussion on the topic of spite 100%. He was telling me his dad called and over the phone they have been working on their relationship slowly. He said when we were living out there, and they were having conflict there were things he did to hurt his dad which he regrets. And then we began to talk about why he did those things, and at one point he said, just to be spiteful because he was angry and felt like he had been wronged, and his feelings were not being acknowledged by his dad. Growing up he felt that way a lot, like his feelings were never important and he feels he acted out as a way to try release that feeling. Sort of complex, but then we just talked about behaving in spiteful ways and why its done.

Anvil, I have done things like you said.. Its usually from some form of annoyance or irritation. I have a friend who always runs late when we make plans, so I ignore my desire to usually be on time within a couple of minutes, and will purposely take my time, run an errand before meeting up and if it causes me to run late, then oh well. Its sort of based on spite because I if this person doesnt care then I think why should I.

Thinking about it, when my husband was acting so bad. I did things that I knew would irritate him just because I was angry and hurt, but I didnt know how to deal with my emotions and acting out in basically hidden ways was a way to express it I guess. I had so many bottled up emotions and pain at that time, it was very bad for me.

In our marriage counseling, we talked about having unresolved negative feelings, and how if they are left to simmer just under the surface and not discussed then it can lead to petty thinking, and change the heart away from being loving, kind, patient with one another.

dandylion

Alicia.....I think of "spitefulness" and "passive aggressiveness" as cousins to each other.....

I can think of times that I have done things that fall into both categories....(blush)....
In fact, I think that everyone does it, sometimes..

Like a lot of things, I think it becomes a matter of degree (and frequency), as to how problematic it is....

FireSprite

Honestly, I think spitefulness is an extremely human behavior.

I don't think it is in any way correlated to addiction or even dysfunction as a whole. I think it has more to do with the inner workings of the individual & the details around a specific situation.

People can ACT spitefully at times without identifying as a Spiteful Person overall. (although certainly, truly spiteful people DO exist in this world) I think it's something we all have the capacity for given the right circumstances, so I don't find it terribly mysterious I guess.

hopeful4

I agree with FireSprite.

I am going to say what I think, and to dumb it way down LOL. I think most people are a glass half full, or a glass half empty type of person. I do think you can change your outlook with work, but it seems that once you are an adult that is much harder to do.

I do think addiction affects this, and if you tend to be a glass half empty type of person, it will be worse during active using.

Just my two cents. I am a glass half full type of person. I do have moments just like everyone, but I tend to look at the positive things in life. Thank Goodness.

ardy

just seems like there is just too much of that going around...

aliciagr

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of spite when it centers around being more mean in nature. Saying things, doing things to actually hurt someone else. Some things can be done out of spite but like my example of being late because another person is always late, or Anvils example of making a point to change her arrival time.

But what about the more destructive things like keying a car, or tossing someones mail, sabotaging a work presentation to make someone look bad, feeding the dog the last hamburger so when your partner goes to the refrig its gone and you know he wanted it. Bringing up a painful topic to make someone feel bad just because they seem too happy. Ive been talking to a few people and discussing spiteful acts and I guess I wonder why people do this. Is it progressive if its based on an underlying emotion not dealt with as time goes by.

How do feelings of entitlement fit in- should have been me, I wanted that, my feelings are more important than another persons. Or some kind of control as in Im in unhappy or in pain and I want someone else to be in pain too?

Are controlling or abusive people more likely to feel spite and act on it in larger ways?

Pondering it all I guess.

FireSprite

By your own quoted definition in the original post, spite IS purposefully being mean in nature toward others - there is no allowance for "how mean" they are:

Is someone less spiteful because they only inflict emotional damage vs. physical? Is passive aggressive spite more acceptable than aggressive-aggressive? The degree of harm they inflict is just shades of grey - IMO you are seriously overthinking this whole thing because a person's relationship with spite is personal & built on their own life experiences.

I don't think so - but if they continually get away with demanding, over-the-top, abusive behavior (like spite) it's reasonable that those behaviors would get bigger & more outrageous over time. Just like a child that acts out more the more they get away with it.

dandylion

Alicia....the way I see it...it all derives from the emotion of anger....and acting it out....
As I said, before, it is a matter of degree....
Someone who is a little bit angry or resentful might spit in someone's coffee...but, if they are boiling angry...they might key someone's car....

***I think it is important to realize than anger is often (but, not always) a defensive emotion that covers over other more distressing emotions like fear, helplessness, etc,,,,,,

dandylion

Welll....I t hink that people who are controlling of others or abusive have some big issues to deal with.....so they might very well have some anger going on....therefore the bigger their anger...the more (bigger, more destructive) acting out they might do.....

dandylion

Alicia...lol...you sure do spend a lot of time trying to figure your husband out.....

aliciagr

Thanks to EVERYONE who posted.
I feel like Im just very into figuring out emotions and what brings about certain feelings, and what prompts a certain action. Its more of a general thing I think instead of about him. I can ask him to explain his stuff and he tries. Ive also had a lot of emotions due to moving, moving again, seeing old friends, dealing with the mistakes Ive made. And then the Christian Marriage counselor is always saying things like "whatever you do, do it with love" That is a lot to aspire to, and I know I dont always act based on compassion or love.

dandylion

Alicia....I would be the last to besmirch intellectual curiosity....I hope that no one ever loses their curiosity about the world....after all, haven't most of our advancements come because someone was curious?

I think it is true...in some cases...that a person can use intellectualization as a way of dealing with life situations (defense mechanism)....because it can be a way of keeping the more painful associated emotions at a distance......

lol...I agree that the Christian Marriage Counselor is setting a pretty nigh ideal...
That would drive me crazy to try to live up to. Maybe, something to put on a sensitivity poster?
Maybe that is for somebody who is sitting on the tip top of Maslow's Hierarchy, looking down a the other mere mortals?

To my way of thinking...the best application of the "love" concept would be to apply it, first, to taking care of one's own self and best welfare.....
then, it can flow out to the rest of the world in the appropriate ways.......

aliciagr

I think what the counselor meant was not to necessarily go out of your way to be nice, or charitable which could actually turn into unhealthy behavior. But to examine your own actions and to think before speaking or acting. Make sure your motives are pure, and that your behaving in a way that you are proud of. Treat others the way you would want to be treated.

I think that is all I am really working on, knowing what characteristics will make me feel good about myself as a person, and those things I want to instill in my child. Of course in terms of having dysfunction or health in the home, it does help to know your partners stance on these things too. Do you remember when you first met someone and you could spend hours on the phone talking about all kinds of things and getting to know each others character. I think my husband and I have been doing that without real intent behind it. Trying to reconnect.

In the past people here have mentioned my husband might have abusive tendencies apart from his addiction. Its also something I still think about.

dandylion

Alicia...you sound like someone who is already a "good person". Treat others the way you want to be treated is something that I imagine that you were taught to do since grade school...? I have a hard time imagining that this is a real problem for you...lol......

Hearing someone saying that they "want to feel good about themselves, as a person".....makes me think that there might be having some feelings of shame or guilt about themelves, in some way. This is a very common thing, even if it is not a really conscious thought. Much of therapy centers around this dynamic. It almost always exists, to some degree, by those who have been abused.

If you are interested in this subject, there is a lot of good material on the web, if you just google "Shame vs. Guilt".......

Joseph Burgo Ph.D. has written a lot on this subject...and you can easily find his articles by a google.
***hint--when you google for this subject matter..always type n the word "psychology"...and you will get the better, more scholarly articles on it...

hopeful4

My counselor is a Christian. He is also the same person who told me to stop being so nice to my XAH. He said that I build bridges hoping to find a normal person on the other side who can coparent with me. However, that person is not normal and will continue to kick the bridge down over and over, so I need to stop building it and take care of myself and my children, who are on this side of the bridge.

This resonated with me very much. I always try to treat others the way I want to be treated. With my XAH I went through times even recently of being his punching bag because I was trying to keep things "normal." This has stopped. When his behavior is bad, I protect myself and my children as we are not his punching bag and have spent enough hours trying.

My point is, it's not possible with some people, and we have to accept that and move forward and make sure we are taking care of ourselves and setting an example for our children in how it's acceptable to be treated, or not treated.

aliciagr

Hopeful, thank you for sharing that. I had a similar experience with the Christian Marriage counselor too. There has been a strong emphasis that in a marriage both people have to do their part, and theoretically the husband is supposed to be the head of the home. (no that doesnt mean he gets to tell the wife what to do). lol But he is supposed to step up and represent the family, set an example, be reliable, dependable, set the moral bar for children in the home, and things like this. The counselor was really clear that if he didnt fill that role then why in the world would I want him as head of my household.

I think it made my husband think a bit too. Its an important job setting the example for children in the home, honoring your wife, and leading your family in a healthy direction.

But the being kind.. it was about being kind and patient with each other, but it goes deeper into being healthy individuals and living up to what we think is right, and treating people with respect and kindness always. We never know what troubles others have, and all those types of things.

I did professional therapy, and we used a professional marriage counselor and both were excellent. But Im getting another angle of things by working with the Christian marriage counselor and Im really enjoying it. Makes me think a lot about my own personal values, and those types of things.