Choice?
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,944
Choice?
Choice for the alcoholic/addict.
Choice for the family member.
I hope some of our double-triple winners will chime in here. I have some questions in my mind that have been brought up by the posts of other members.
How does choice play into addiction? I realize that an addict no more chooses to be an addict than I choose to be a diabetic. And I have read the posts of some addicts and alcoholics in this community who say that "It's a disease, not a choice". This is frequently used during a complaint about how family members are treating them--they don't feel loved by their family members because they have been asked to leave their homes over their drinking or drug use.
So how do you respond to that 'accusation' of kicking someone when they are down?
I thought I understood that while being an addict is not a choice, being an 'active' addict is a choice. That one has the power to choose whether or not to pick up that next drink or that next hit. Is that more or less correct (although I realize your mileage may vary)? I understand it is an overwhelming compulsion, but that it is possible to choose?
Maybe that's wrong. Maybe someone is simply an addict and that is how they will be the rest of their lives. But if it is not possible to choose *not* to use, then how does anyone recover at all?
________
My experience with addiction runs primarily on my mother's side of my family. My maternal grandmother and grandfather and step-grandfather were all alcoholics. One aunt probably abuses alcohol, and a few cousins and my sister are all addicts/alcoholics in varying stages of recovery (my sister is solidly in recovery, thank God!). My mother is Classic ACoA--Classic! How I am not addicted, I have no idea. I am a fortunate soul in that regard. What brought me to SR was the alcoholism and crack addiction of my stepson.
So what sort of choices do we have as family members?
It seems that the two extremes are "lose ourselves entirely on the altar of our loved one's addiction" or "kick them to the curb".
Try to step in and help? I have been through the attitude that "we can fix this!" only to have each and every 'solution' offered scoffed at, turned down, ignored.
Cut the addict/alcoholic out of my life forever? I have been hugely resentful to the point of never wanting my stepson to darken my doorstep ever again--don't mention his name in my presence. (Well, he had threatened to kill 3 members of his own family).
Some combination of help and detachment? I have reached a point of detachment from my stepson that keeps peace in my world, but he is no longer really a part of my world. He does live a few states away, and we really don't talk on the phone. He hasn't responded to any of my recent text messages but does talk to his sister every few weeks.
Choice seems so much more complicated on the F&F side. My late husband and I have been in the hospital with his son on several occasions and allowed him to make arrangements (instead of handling it ourselves) with the social worker there to enter rehab and then sober living. That did not stick. I don't have the income to equal that of my late husband, so I can't really help him if he ever came to me to help pay for another go at rehab. He doesn't seem inclined to go that route any time soon, anyway.
_______
Just trying to bring some clarity to my own world. Thanks for reading! What has been your experience?
Choice for the family member.
I hope some of our double-triple winners will chime in here. I have some questions in my mind that have been brought up by the posts of other members.
How does choice play into addiction? I realize that an addict no more chooses to be an addict than I choose to be a diabetic. And I have read the posts of some addicts and alcoholics in this community who say that "It's a disease, not a choice". This is frequently used during a complaint about how family members are treating them--they don't feel loved by their family members because they have been asked to leave their homes over their drinking or drug use.
So how do you respond to that 'accusation' of kicking someone when they are down?
I thought I understood that while being an addict is not a choice, being an 'active' addict is a choice. That one has the power to choose whether or not to pick up that next drink or that next hit. Is that more or less correct (although I realize your mileage may vary)? I understand it is an overwhelming compulsion, but that it is possible to choose?
Maybe that's wrong. Maybe someone is simply an addict and that is how they will be the rest of their lives. But if it is not possible to choose *not* to use, then how does anyone recover at all?
________
My experience with addiction runs primarily on my mother's side of my family. My maternal grandmother and grandfather and step-grandfather were all alcoholics. One aunt probably abuses alcohol, and a few cousins and my sister are all addicts/alcoholics in varying stages of recovery (my sister is solidly in recovery, thank God!). My mother is Classic ACoA--Classic! How I am not addicted, I have no idea. I am a fortunate soul in that regard. What brought me to SR was the alcoholism and crack addiction of my stepson.
So what sort of choices do we have as family members?
It seems that the two extremes are "lose ourselves entirely on the altar of our loved one's addiction" or "kick them to the curb".
Try to step in and help? I have been through the attitude that "we can fix this!" only to have each and every 'solution' offered scoffed at, turned down, ignored.
Cut the addict/alcoholic out of my life forever? I have been hugely resentful to the point of never wanting my stepson to darken my doorstep ever again--don't mention his name in my presence. (Well, he had threatened to kill 3 members of his own family).
Some combination of help and detachment? I have reached a point of detachment from my stepson that keeps peace in my world, but he is no longer really a part of my world. He does live a few states away, and we really don't talk on the phone. He hasn't responded to any of my recent text messages but does talk to his sister every few weeks.
Choice seems so much more complicated on the F&F side. My late husband and I have been in the hospital with his son on several occasions and allowed him to make arrangements (instead of handling it ourselves) with the social worker there to enter rehab and then sober living. That did not stick. I don't have the income to equal that of my late husband, so I can't really help him if he ever came to me to help pay for another go at rehab. He doesn't seem inclined to go that route any time soon, anyway.
_______
Just trying to bring some clarity to my own world. Thanks for reading! What has been your experience?
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
If someone doesnt want to stay sober and work on their recovery, then no amount of 'help' will make any difference to that anyway. So why would you make that a choice to any greater or lesser degree? Your stepson do not stick with his program. He is like the diabetic choosing to live on Mars Bars and Twinkies. Stopping him is NOTa choice you have. Your choice is to accept him as he is (i.e. not LIKE it, but concede that you cannot control him) and either see him, or don't.
Why do you feel responsible for him? I suspect your late husband would probably want you to be getting on with enjoying your own life, not trying to lead an elephant by hanging off its tail, which I think serves as adequately as any illustration of attempting to get an aloholic to stop drinking who is not desperate to do so.
I wonder how many of your percieved 'choices' are actually realistic and possible. You could make things easier by crossing out and that in fact rely on those people deciding to be sober. I suspect then you will have a much easier list to choose from.
Live. Surround yourself with people who are emotionally available and who are capable of loving you back. You deserve it.
BB
Why do you feel responsible for him? I suspect your late husband would probably want you to be getting on with enjoying your own life, not trying to lead an elephant by hanging off its tail, which I think serves as adequately as any illustration of attempting to get an aloholic to stop drinking who is not desperate to do so.
I wonder how many of your percieved 'choices' are actually realistic and possible. You could make things easier by crossing out and that in fact rely on those people deciding to be sober. I suspect then you will have a much easier list to choose from.
Live. Surround yourself with people who are emotionally available and who are capable of loving you back. You deserve it.
BB
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,944
Hi Berrybean,
I think you misunderstand me to quite a degree. I don't feel responsible for my stepson. He is a 30-something year old man who is going to have to work out his life on his own. He is alive and scraping by somehow. I do not know the details. *chuckle* and I'm not holding on to an elephant's tail
I do live, and I do surround myself with people who are emotionally available-- Well, I am still grieving, but...
I am just speaking in general terms and trying to sort out some ideas in my own mind. I am just pondering choices as they relate to both family members and those addicted.
Believe me when I say I am fully aware of how powerless I am over my stepson's addiction. My late husband and I came to a point where we would tell his son we would think about whatever request he made and get back to him. If we did choose to cover a medical bill, we would pay for it directly to the provider--not him. If we chose to cover one-month's rent, we would pay it to the landlord, not to him, and so on. That, I suppose, is along the lines of the 'choices' available to family members...we choose how much, or not, we are willing to do.
I think you misunderstand me to quite a degree. I don't feel responsible for my stepson. He is a 30-something year old man who is going to have to work out his life on his own. He is alive and scraping by somehow. I do not know the details. *chuckle* and I'm not holding on to an elephant's tail
I do live, and I do surround myself with people who are emotionally available-- Well, I am still grieving, but...I am just speaking in general terms and trying to sort out some ideas in my own mind. I am just pondering choices as they relate to both family members and those addicted.
Believe me when I say I am fully aware of how powerless I am over my stepson's addiction. My late husband and I came to a point where we would tell his son we would think about whatever request he made and get back to him. If we did choose to cover a medical bill, we would pay for it directly to the provider--not him. If we chose to cover one-month's rent, we would pay it to the landlord, not to him, and so on. That, I suppose, is along the lines of the 'choices' available to family members...we choose how much, or not, we are willing to do.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Seren, I posted my response to this recently on another thread. "Moment of clarity"--it's the occasional moment which at least SOME alcoholics/addicts get, where the fog lifts and you can really SEE what your life has become and how the alcohol/drug use is responsible and the fact that you DO have options, maybe can't do it alone, but that recovery is possible and desirable. I think of it as a window that opens, briefly, and if not acted on immediately, it will close--MAYBE to open again at some point in the future. I experienced it; most sober alcoholics/addicts I know did. I do know that the rest of the time, drinking felt like something I had no choice about. And if you don't SEE and BELIEVE there's a choice, you might as well not have one.
Think of it this way. If someone told you great wealth, health, and happiness awaited you if you did some specific thing--let's say some ritual or something--and it didn't make sense to you, would you feel you were making a "choice" not to have those wonderful things? Or would you just say to yourself, "That's ridiculous, no sane person would believe that, I know better, you can't have a great life by doing XYZ." You have to at least see hope that something better would happen before you can make a real choice and decide, "There are two different ways I can proceed, and I choose this one." As rational as the choice looks to us, it doesn't look that way to an active alcoholic/addict.
Think of it this way. If someone told you great wealth, health, and happiness awaited you if you did some specific thing--let's say some ritual or something--and it didn't make sense to you, would you feel you were making a "choice" not to have those wonderful things? Or would you just say to yourself, "That's ridiculous, no sane person would believe that, I know better, you can't have a great life by doing XYZ." You have to at least see hope that something better would happen before you can make a real choice and decide, "There are two different ways I can proceed, and I choose this one." As rational as the choice looks to us, it doesn't look that way to an active alcoholic/addict.
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Wareham, Mass
Posts: 7,067
Hi, Seren
Good ponderings.
I think a lot about the concept of choice as well.
My alcohol addicted sib is well and truly addicted, and any thought of choice for him is in the rear view mirror. He could not give up the drink on his own now without some serious consequences.
But...there have been times in his life, as with your stepson, when he could have taken a different path, and didn't.
He was sober for about 2 years some years back.
Not his choice. We had removed him from mom's house, forced a detox and placed him in a sober house.
He didn't like it, but they took good care of him and, by god, kept him sober.
He was the clearest I had ever seen him, healthy and lucid.
Long story longer, we let him move back with Mom, as they both wanted that.
Now to the present, he drinks every day and is just generally a hot mess.
He was clean and sober, chose to pick up again, and here we are.
That was his choice. Unfortunately, we all have to deal with it.
Addiction is just a really rotten thing.
Good ponderings.
I think a lot about the concept of choice as well.
My alcohol addicted sib is well and truly addicted, and any thought of choice for him is in the rear view mirror. He could not give up the drink on his own now without some serious consequences.
But...there have been times in his life, as with your stepson, when he could have taken a different path, and didn't.
He was sober for about 2 years some years back.
Not his choice. We had removed him from mom's house, forced a detox and placed him in a sober house.
He didn't like it, but they took good care of him and, by god, kept him sober.
He was the clearest I had ever seen him, healthy and lucid.
Long story longer, we let him move back with Mom, as they both wanted that.
Now to the present, he drinks every day and is just generally a hot mess.
He was clean and sober, chose to pick up again, and here we are.
That was his choice. Unfortunately, we all have to deal with it.
Addiction is just a really rotten thing.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
well, if there was NO choice, then no addict would ever get clean. unless forced to, by confinement or some other set up.
i know that shortly after i became addicted to crack, i wanted to stop. but didn't.....couldn't? it sure didn't seem possible to say no AT THE TIME. plus both hank and i were using together, and you get the whole lemming thing.....oh you're going to jump off a cliff? well, hold up, i'm right behind you. we took turns being Lead Lemming.
the owner of the house we were renting decided they wanted to demo the structure, rebuild and live there themselves, so we had to go. we hadn't done anything wrong, they just had plans that meant we could not live in a structure being torn down! so we had to find a new place. that's when we came across the beach cottage....
it was like a gift from the universe. beach cottage on the sound (well across the street from the beach), darling little place. BUT the rent was much higher than we'd been paying. now remember, we were still using - pretty much every other day. so we went for a walk on the beach and talked....agreed that if we would just stop being so stooopid and quit using all the damn time, $80 at least multiple times a week, we'd totally have enough $$ for rent.
so we went for it. now this could have gone one of two ways - we could have continued to use at the same pace, and not be able to meet the rental obligation and get kicked out OR we could pull our heads out and really make a go of it. while we did not stop immediately, we did use less, less often, got more good days strung together - enjoyed being outside, windows OPEN, not hiding. yes we did still barricade ourselves IN on roasting hot days, cuz we weren't always the brightest candles on the cake, but over time, the grip began to loosen.
then my daughter moved back to town and stayed with us for seven months. that REALLY put a hamper on the shenanigans.
then we got the opportunity to buy the lake house. and that put a fork in it. ok MOSTLY, cuz hank was still pretty wobbly for a few years. but he also had a 20 year history with dope. and it's hard to let go completely.
yes there are choices. they just aren't always "easy" to make. depends on how far IN to addiction one is - and how much has already been lost. my mom never tried to get sober as far as i know or remember. even when faced with DEATH, she still did not make the sober choice. maybe her "pain" was too great - maybe life hurt too much. maybe the idea of being sober held no appeal. i'll never know. she HAD the opportunity, had been hospitalized, had days off the drink, was told in no uncertain terms that if she drank again, at all, it would KILL her. and yet...........left to her own devices, back at home, she went to the liquor store (we'd cleaned the house out before she got home - filled the bed of my husband's pick up....) and drank again. three days later, back in the hospital and her liver just gave up.
we must continue to believe that recovery IS possible. but also acknowledge that not everyone will CHOOSE recovery, WANT recovery, or make a successful run at it. there is no recipe. we will always be faulty humans.
i know that shortly after i became addicted to crack, i wanted to stop. but didn't.....couldn't? it sure didn't seem possible to say no AT THE TIME. plus both hank and i were using together, and you get the whole lemming thing.....oh you're going to jump off a cliff? well, hold up, i'm right behind you. we took turns being Lead Lemming.
the owner of the house we were renting decided they wanted to demo the structure, rebuild and live there themselves, so we had to go. we hadn't done anything wrong, they just had plans that meant we could not live in a structure being torn down! so we had to find a new place. that's when we came across the beach cottage....
it was like a gift from the universe. beach cottage on the sound (well across the street from the beach), darling little place. BUT the rent was much higher than we'd been paying. now remember, we were still using - pretty much every other day. so we went for a walk on the beach and talked....agreed that if we would just stop being so stooopid and quit using all the damn time, $80 at least multiple times a week, we'd totally have enough $$ for rent.
so we went for it. now this could have gone one of two ways - we could have continued to use at the same pace, and not be able to meet the rental obligation and get kicked out OR we could pull our heads out and really make a go of it. while we did not stop immediately, we did use less, less often, got more good days strung together - enjoyed being outside, windows OPEN, not hiding. yes we did still barricade ourselves IN on roasting hot days, cuz we weren't always the brightest candles on the cake, but over time, the grip began to loosen.
then my daughter moved back to town and stayed with us for seven months. that REALLY put a hamper on the shenanigans.
then we got the opportunity to buy the lake house. and that put a fork in it. ok MOSTLY, cuz hank was still pretty wobbly for a few years. but he also had a 20 year history with dope. and it's hard to let go completely.
yes there are choices. they just aren't always "easy" to make. depends on how far IN to addiction one is - and how much has already been lost. my mom never tried to get sober as far as i know or remember. even when faced with DEATH, she still did not make the sober choice. maybe her "pain" was too great - maybe life hurt too much. maybe the idea of being sober held no appeal. i'll never know. she HAD the opportunity, had been hospitalized, had days off the drink, was told in no uncertain terms that if she drank again, at all, it would KILL her. and yet...........left to her own devices, back at home, she went to the liquor store (we'd cleaned the house out before she got home - filled the bed of my husband's pick up....) and drank again. three days later, back in the hospital and her liver just gave up.
we must continue to believe that recovery IS possible. but also acknowledge that not everyone will CHOOSE recovery, WANT recovery, or make a successful run at it. there is no recipe. we will always be faulty humans.
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 5
imo. the first time one decides to "use" or take that first drink is a choice. After that it can develop into a disease especially if the underlying emotional, codependent issues are not addressed. Usually starts as self medication as in my case.
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 844
I think the topic of "choice" as its related to substance abuse will be answered in varying ways and is dependent on a individuals personal beliefs about addiction and recovery. When my husbands addiction was out of control I began seeing a Dr who specialized in addiction medicine, and I found it the best resource for me.
The whole idea of "choice" is tossed about a lot on this family forum. I think it creates a lot of anger in family members when they think someone is choosing to drink or use drugs. Which in turn means they are also choosing to exhibit the negative behaviors we are often exposed to. They are choosing to experience negative consequences like job loss, health issues, deteriorating relationships, legal trouble. Kinda hard not to be angry if a happy, stable home and family are set aside for someone opting to go down that road.
After doing a lot of Family Therapy with my husband, I believe when he started experimenting with substances it was part social/peer related as he was a teenager. There was no substance abuse in his family, but there was other dysfunction. He learned to cope with/avoid emotions by using substances and this blossomed when he was in college and it was a widely accepted behavior. But at one point, he had a severe negative consequence and he was able to stop at that point. For years... That is when our relationship developed.
But last year, when he started again.. it was again related to his emotions, coping mechanisms. But I truly feel the window of time where he was able to recognize negative consequences, had the ability to make changes on his own and stop the behaviors and the drug and alcohol use was very small. He lost control, and I believe it all happened in the brain. It was not lack of willpower, or his choosing a year of crazy disastrous events. This is where the Dr was able to help me understand. And while I wont get into this topic because its one that often brings on debate.. I can only say seek professional advice and learn about addiction.. I dont call it a disease... but I understand the medical concept because while addicted the brain function and pathways are altered, and it continues to change while the chemicals are flooding the brain. When the substances stop, then in most cases the brain will heal, new pathways will be developed over time.
But getting from one point to the other is really hard, and why so many people relapse. Others may say its a choice... they didnt want to change bad enough.... to me, its not that simple.
Think about this... do you know anyone overweight.. who eats to soothe ? Who says they want to lose weight, and tries but doesnt have much success? Im not even talking about food addiction.. but just slight behavior modification.. its hard and there are a lot of psychological and emotional components involved. Its just that the negative consequences, dysfunctional behaviors dont affect others as much.
It helps me put it all in perspective , helps me understand as family we often see many of the same "symptoms" when dealing with addiction. The guilt, shame, need to protect the addiction, the lies, warped thinking, watching the deterioration...
The professionals Ive dealt with say while negative consequences are important in promoting desire to change, but its not something you can rely on because the brain isnt processing these events normally at certain stages. People often need help.. and they need help to get the proper help. Its not one size fits all, at least from what I was advised.. and what I believe.
I helped my husband get help... Ive been criticized for it on this forum. Told it showed I was codependent and enabling him. LOL I dont care what people think, or what their beliefs are.. I had professional support back then and I have no regrets over that part. He was a mess, and needed help to stop. After ceasing substances he began to heal, could think more clearly, and began to have more control, reason and make better decisions. But he still needed support through his therapist, and his family. (he did not use 12 step support groups).
I HAD CHOICES ALL ALONG. I didnt have to go along for the journey. In our case, we had no children. I could have provided for myself, I have family support. I made unhealthy choices for myself in the beginning because this was something I never faced before. It was new, filled with emotions, fear, and my husbands behavior was something I had never experienced. I shut out my family because I was ashamed primarily. That was a huge mistake. I also stayed in the house with my husband when he was unstable and ended up being physically abused. I should have seen the instability and sensed the danger and left.. I did that finally when he was still in the depths of addiction. I turned to the wrong people - his dysfunctional family who made things worse due to their own coping skills... the one saving grace I had was finding professional help because I needed it to sort things out for myself.
I am separated from my husband temporarily again. He did a lot of damage when he was on his run and its taking time to rebuild the trust, and time for us both to process what happened and heal. Im not angry at him anymore.. I have compassion for what he went through, and Ive seen how coming to terms with it all has been incredibly painful for him. I dont think he is "pickled" and now damaged goods. He is human, has his own set of emotional, behavioral, psychological, medical issues... as do I.
I have choices and always have.. I am responsible for monitoring my own happiness. Im responsible for seeking help if I need it for my emotional, mental, physical health. Im soon to be a parent, and will be responsible for making sure my child has a healthy and happy home life, Im responsible for trying something new if what Im doing isnt working.
The whole idea of "choice" is tossed about a lot on this family forum. I think it creates a lot of anger in family members when they think someone is choosing to drink or use drugs. Which in turn means they are also choosing to exhibit the negative behaviors we are often exposed to. They are choosing to experience negative consequences like job loss, health issues, deteriorating relationships, legal trouble. Kinda hard not to be angry if a happy, stable home and family are set aside for someone opting to go down that road.
After doing a lot of Family Therapy with my husband, I believe when he started experimenting with substances it was part social/peer related as he was a teenager. There was no substance abuse in his family, but there was other dysfunction. He learned to cope with/avoid emotions by using substances and this blossomed when he was in college and it was a widely accepted behavior. But at one point, he had a severe negative consequence and he was able to stop at that point. For years... That is when our relationship developed.
But last year, when he started again.. it was again related to his emotions, coping mechanisms. But I truly feel the window of time where he was able to recognize negative consequences, had the ability to make changes on his own and stop the behaviors and the drug and alcohol use was very small. He lost control, and I believe it all happened in the brain. It was not lack of willpower, or his choosing a year of crazy disastrous events. This is where the Dr was able to help me understand. And while I wont get into this topic because its one that often brings on debate.. I can only say seek professional advice and learn about addiction.. I dont call it a disease... but I understand the medical concept because while addicted the brain function and pathways are altered, and it continues to change while the chemicals are flooding the brain. When the substances stop, then in most cases the brain will heal, new pathways will be developed over time.
But getting from one point to the other is really hard, and why so many people relapse. Others may say its a choice... they didnt want to change bad enough.... to me, its not that simple.
Think about this... do you know anyone overweight.. who eats to soothe ? Who says they want to lose weight, and tries but doesnt have much success? Im not even talking about food addiction.. but just slight behavior modification.. its hard and there are a lot of psychological and emotional components involved. Its just that the negative consequences, dysfunctional behaviors dont affect others as much.
It helps me put it all in perspective , helps me understand as family we often see many of the same "symptoms" when dealing with addiction. The guilt, shame, need to protect the addiction, the lies, warped thinking, watching the deterioration...
The professionals Ive dealt with say while negative consequences are important in promoting desire to change, but its not something you can rely on because the brain isnt processing these events normally at certain stages. People often need help.. and they need help to get the proper help. Its not one size fits all, at least from what I was advised.. and what I believe.
I helped my husband get help... Ive been criticized for it on this forum. Told it showed I was codependent and enabling him. LOL I dont care what people think, or what their beliefs are.. I had professional support back then and I have no regrets over that part. He was a mess, and needed help to stop. After ceasing substances he began to heal, could think more clearly, and began to have more control, reason and make better decisions. But he still needed support through his therapist, and his family. (he did not use 12 step support groups).
I HAD CHOICES ALL ALONG. I didnt have to go along for the journey. In our case, we had no children. I could have provided for myself, I have family support. I made unhealthy choices for myself in the beginning because this was something I never faced before. It was new, filled with emotions, fear, and my husbands behavior was something I had never experienced. I shut out my family because I was ashamed primarily. That was a huge mistake. I also stayed in the house with my husband when he was unstable and ended up being physically abused. I should have seen the instability and sensed the danger and left.. I did that finally when he was still in the depths of addiction. I turned to the wrong people - his dysfunctional family who made things worse due to their own coping skills... the one saving grace I had was finding professional help because I needed it to sort things out for myself.
I am separated from my husband temporarily again. He did a lot of damage when he was on his run and its taking time to rebuild the trust, and time for us both to process what happened and heal. Im not angry at him anymore.. I have compassion for what he went through, and Ive seen how coming to terms with it all has been incredibly painful for him. I dont think he is "pickled" and now damaged goods. He is human, has his own set of emotional, behavioral, psychological, medical issues... as do I.
I have choices and always have.. I am responsible for monitoring my own happiness. Im responsible for seeking help if I need it for my emotional, mental, physical health. Im soon to be a parent, and will be responsible for making sure my child has a healthy and happy home life, Im responsible for trying something new if what Im doing isnt working.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Wareham, Mass
Posts: 7,067
Anvil, amazing share. Thanks.
Prsm, spot on.
My sib didn't choose to get sober.
It was an untenable situation, where he drank all the time.
He had a seizure and was hospitalized, and my other sib and I grabbed the moment and got him placed in a sober house.
Where, as it happens, he should have stayed.
My mom chose to have him move back in, and we are back where we started.
Funny thing is, mom, who is the queen of denial, has a little revisionist history going on when we talk about this.
She says that she had no choice but to take him back, as they were going to kick him out.
So not true.
I wish, and have said so many times on rhis forum, that I could choose to never see my sib again.
Would do it in a heartbeat.
But...he lives with mom, who pretty much needs a daily wellness visit.
We have tried having caregivers come in, in place of me or my spouse, but that hasn't really worked, for several reasons, some having to do with mom, some with sib.
So...I limit my contact with him, and he with me.
I take care of mom as much as she will allow, and let him be.
Except when he falls in the kitchen and can't get up because he's lit.
Hello, EMTs?
This will end.
He will die.
Or go into care if we can find a place that takes aged drunks.
She will die.
Or go into care.
Meantime, I abide.
Prsm, spot on.
My sib didn't choose to get sober.
It was an untenable situation, where he drank all the time.
He had a seizure and was hospitalized, and my other sib and I grabbed the moment and got him placed in a sober house.
Where, as it happens, he should have stayed.
My mom chose to have him move back in, and we are back where we started.
Funny thing is, mom, who is the queen of denial, has a little revisionist history going on when we talk about this.
She says that she had no choice but to take him back, as they were going to kick him out.
So not true.
I wish, and have said so many times on rhis forum, that I could choose to never see my sib again.
Would do it in a heartbeat.
But...he lives with mom, who pretty much needs a daily wellness visit.
We have tried having caregivers come in, in place of me or my spouse, but that hasn't really worked, for several reasons, some having to do with mom, some with sib.
So...I limit my contact with him, and he with me.
I take care of mom as much as she will allow, and let him be.
Except when he falls in the kitchen and can't get up because he's lit.
Hello, EMTs?
This will end.
He will die.
Or go into care if we can find a place that takes aged drunks.
She will die.
Or go into care.
Meantime, I abide.
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Alicia, great share. Thanks to you as well.
I agree that addiction is not a binary thing. It is complex, comprising elements of environment, genetics, situations, mental health, and emotions.
Understanding how the brain responds to drugs and alcohol is key.
I admire that you are really thinking this through, and I wish you and your family well.
Peace and good thoughts.
I agree that addiction is not a binary thing. It is complex, comprising elements of environment, genetics, situations, mental health, and emotions.
Understanding how the brain responds to drugs and alcohol is key.
I admire that you are really thinking this through, and I wish you and your family well.
Peace and good thoughts.
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
Perhaps it helps to realize that addiction is a mental illness. As a daily drinker I honestly believed I HAD to drink every day, I didn't realize I had a choice. But when a I almost died in a blackout, it shook me to the core; fear of death made me desperate to stop. I had the willingness -- the "gift of desperation -- to take suggestions from my AA sponsor and one day at a time remained sober 25 years. But I'm still an addict, the denial and rationalization characteristic of the disease led to a codependent relationship. This time, however, I was aware of picking a disastrous relationship and that the problem was ME.
Alcoholics are by nature defiant, self centered and have enormous self-will. With therapy and the 12 Steps theses qualities can be kept in check. But it takes a lot of hard work and time to change.
Alcoholics are by nature defiant, self centered and have enormous self-will. With therapy and the 12 Steps theses qualities can be kept in check. But it takes a lot of hard work and time to change.
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I always thought it was not a choice, until my XAH uttered these words. "Sometimes I just drink because I am bored and feel like it."
Wow. Just wow. I had been trying so hard to look for all of these huge reasons WHY. Then I figured out that it did not matter why. He did not want help to stop nor did he want to stop, so he did not. It's actions for me, so that was it. I was done.
Had he come to me and said he truly wanted to stop but found himself unable and asked for my help, I would have helped him in any way I could . Alas no, he just wanted me to suck up all the bad behavior and get over it. I could not do it anymore, and I was showing my children that was acceptable, which is absolutely was not.
Also...when given legal motivation to clean up, he could absolutely do that. When he was on probation, he could stay clean. Amazingly, once that ran out, the bottle opened right back up. That told me it was possible, when he wanted it enough.
Wow. Just wow. I had been trying so hard to look for all of these huge reasons WHY. Then I figured out that it did not matter why. He did not want help to stop nor did he want to stop, so he did not. It's actions for me, so that was it. I was done.
Had he come to me and said he truly wanted to stop but found himself unable and asked for my help, I would have helped him in any way I could . Alas no, he just wanted me to suck up all the bad behavior and get over it. I could not do it anymore, and I was showing my children that was acceptable, which is absolutely was not.
Also...when given legal motivation to clean up, he could absolutely do that. When he was on probation, he could stay clean. Amazingly, once that ran out, the bottle opened right back up. That told me it was possible, when he wanted it enough.
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I've heard countless recovering alcoholics say how surprised they were when someone said: "you don't have to drink today." HUH? Really? But it means a whole different thing hearing it from someone who drank as I did. Wouldn't have registered if a non-alcoholic family member or friend said those words.
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Thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts here so far. I will be the first in line to admit that because I do not suffer from addiction, I will never truly understand it.
So going with the mental illness/mental disorder idea, it seems to me that it is treated differently than other mental disorders. Perhaps the sheer number of people who suffer from it makes it so much different in the way that it is perceived. Take something like OCD, for example. Is there a 12-step program for that? It seems to me that OCD is treated using some combination of CBT and anti-depressants. So is there another mental disorder that could be compared directly to addiction (other than the codependent behaviors--which I have always understood to be learned behaviors rather than having a biological component)?
And all this, I suppose, brings me back to the question of the choices faced by those of us with addicted loved ones. I know that my stepson certainly laid the guilt on quite thickly when he did not get what he wanted and was finally asked to move out. I firmly believe that by making my stepson fend for himself, he may eventually have a chance at recovery. Still, I would not make the same choices if, for example, my sister was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder or ptsd--she hasn't, this is just a small thought experiment. I would likely do all I could to assist her in getting the help she needed.
I use my sister as an example because she is an alcoholic/addict in recovery. During her run and gun days, we (the rest of the family), did not spend much time around her. The primary reason being how her behavior affected the rest of us with drama and chaos. I suppose I simply would not expect quite the same sort of drama and chaos to enter my life if my sister were diagnosed with another disorder.
So my choice, as a family member, boils down to how much chaos and drama, anxiety and illness I will allow to enter my own life due to someone else's mental disorder. That is a difficult line to find for many, and based on an idea that addiction is a complex mental disorder, it makes it that much harder to the loved ones of an addicted person to make the changes needed to protect themselves due to the guilt that they feel.
Well, anyway, just my ramblings for the evening. Thank you all so much for your opinions and experiences. It has given me a lot to think about!
So going with the mental illness/mental disorder idea, it seems to me that it is treated differently than other mental disorders. Perhaps the sheer number of people who suffer from it makes it so much different in the way that it is perceived. Take something like OCD, for example. Is there a 12-step program for that? It seems to me that OCD is treated using some combination of CBT and anti-depressants. So is there another mental disorder that could be compared directly to addiction (other than the codependent behaviors--which I have always understood to be learned behaviors rather than having a biological component)?
And all this, I suppose, brings me back to the question of the choices faced by those of us with addicted loved ones. I know that my stepson certainly laid the guilt on quite thickly when he did not get what he wanted and was finally asked to move out. I firmly believe that by making my stepson fend for himself, he may eventually have a chance at recovery. Still, I would not make the same choices if, for example, my sister was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder or ptsd--she hasn't, this is just a small thought experiment. I would likely do all I could to assist her in getting the help she needed.
I use my sister as an example because she is an alcoholic/addict in recovery. During her run and gun days, we (the rest of the family), did not spend much time around her. The primary reason being how her behavior affected the rest of us with drama and chaos. I suppose I simply would not expect quite the same sort of drama and chaos to enter my life if my sister were diagnosed with another disorder.
So my choice, as a family member, boils down to how much chaos and drama, anxiety and illness I will allow to enter my own life due to someone else's mental disorder. That is a difficult line to find for many, and based on an idea that addiction is a complex mental disorder, it makes it that much harder to the loved ones of an addicted person to make the changes needed to protect themselves due to the guilt that they feel.
Well, anyway, just my ramblings for the evening. Thank you all so much for your opinions and experiences. It has given me a lot to think about!
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Great thread! My brother sat me down one afternoon and said, "why don't you have any eyelashes? You choose not to, as you hate the consequences yet still continue to pull. Why?".
I have suffered from trichotillomania for over a decade now and have had my "dry" days, but I have never learned to stop for any real length of time. I lay in bed or while driving or thinking, and I pull. I promise myself "just one", then "just one more", and before you know it hours have passed and I'm once again a bald eyed mess.
The reason I bring up the conversation with my brother is that, not being fated with the disorder he tried to make sense of why I do something so illogical that leads to undesirable consequences (dirt always getting into eyes, being unable to leave the house without liner to mask, being somewhat of a glamazon having to struggle with false lashes just to appear normal). Granted, when I pull I can still maintain a job. I am not hurting anyone else, I am able to still live a happy and normal life. I do not put f&f through hell.
But when it happens do I have the choice to put my hand down and stop the activity? Yes. Always. Do I choose to lift it up and pull anyways? Yes Always.
The recovery rate of those with trich is actually pretty low. Ppl do recover and learn never to pull again. But for most it is a lifelong battle and full of failure. I do not "work" on any program to prevent pulling, so when the craving hits the choice is easier for me to make. Almost an automatic behavior. Unconscious. I pull because I choose to. It is very difficult for me not to. But not impossible. I white knuckle the problem and say never again and I truly do believe it, yet I have no tangible or quantifiable efforts in place to stop the behavior so it goes on and on. Just like an alcoholic without a plan.
If alcoholics I assume are handling a similar experience (but with severe consequences added), I would guess that recovery is possible simply due to CHOOSING to add a barrier of work into what is an automated habit for them - picking up the bottle. If trich had a program that worked for sufferers and I chose to work it hard, I believe I could stop pulling. I have the choice, but I don't believe that choice is easy or much less likely going to change unless there was a viable treatment option to control the urges. Meetings, programs, sponsors, etc. (another question is would I pull if consequences were worse like that of an addict??)
Alcoholics are not much different from others that have the disease of, what I would argue is impulse control, but what they do have on their side is mostly free and widely available treatment that if followed with the hard work, can keep the symptoms of the disease at bay. (Maybe as an over-eater who has to stop eating so much or will die). So while it is hard to justify anger at one afflicted with addiction, it is not hard to justify anger toward one who does not show any efforts in wanting to take those steps. Not just be a passive victim to the disease.
Sorry that was a bit of a tangent!
I have suffered from trichotillomania for over a decade now and have had my "dry" days, but I have never learned to stop for any real length of time. I lay in bed or while driving or thinking, and I pull. I promise myself "just one", then "just one more", and before you know it hours have passed and I'm once again a bald eyed mess.
The reason I bring up the conversation with my brother is that, not being fated with the disorder he tried to make sense of why I do something so illogical that leads to undesirable consequences (dirt always getting into eyes, being unable to leave the house without liner to mask, being somewhat of a glamazon having to struggle with false lashes just to appear normal). Granted, when I pull I can still maintain a job. I am not hurting anyone else, I am able to still live a happy and normal life. I do not put f&f through hell.
But when it happens do I have the choice to put my hand down and stop the activity? Yes. Always. Do I choose to lift it up and pull anyways? Yes Always.
The recovery rate of those with trich is actually pretty low. Ppl do recover and learn never to pull again. But for most it is a lifelong battle and full of failure. I do not "work" on any program to prevent pulling, so when the craving hits the choice is easier for me to make. Almost an automatic behavior. Unconscious. I pull because I choose to. It is very difficult for me not to. But not impossible. I white knuckle the problem and say never again and I truly do believe it, yet I have no tangible or quantifiable efforts in place to stop the behavior so it goes on and on. Just like an alcoholic without a plan.
If alcoholics I assume are handling a similar experience (but with severe consequences added), I would guess that recovery is possible simply due to CHOOSING to add a barrier of work into what is an automated habit for them - picking up the bottle. If trich had a program that worked for sufferers and I chose to work it hard, I believe I could stop pulling. I have the choice, but I don't believe that choice is easy or much less likely going to change unless there was a viable treatment option to control the urges. Meetings, programs, sponsors, etc. (another question is would I pull if consequences were worse like that of an addict??)
Alcoholics are not much different from others that have the disease of, what I would argue is impulse control, but what they do have on their side is mostly free and widely available treatment that if followed with the hard work, can keep the symptoms of the disease at bay. (Maybe as an over-eater who has to stop eating so much or will die). So while it is hard to justify anger at one afflicted with addiction, it is not hard to justify anger toward one who does not show any efforts in wanting to take those steps. Not just be a passive victim to the disease.
Sorry that was a bit of a tangent!
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If only addiction and obsession were so simple to be a choice.
The roots of a persons addiction can be due to mental health difficulties yet this is not always the case and due to the nature of certain drugs, like alcohol which change the way a persons brain works over time, their behaviour becomes less of a choice and more of a compulsion to 'feel better' hence the self-medicating.
Many of the original choices people had are no longer available once the stigma attached to 'the problem' has taken root along with the actual problem which is now one in its own right and yet the help available is only useful if the person is willing to try it. Many attempts to curb the addictive behaviour may be made by the addict and family, friends etc.
Genetics, learned behaviour, core beliefs, emotional understanding and many other components make up a person yet only those who choose to ABSTAIN can begin to learn new skills and tools through CBT and other therapy systems as the brain otherwise has little chance of understanding while its drowned in the fog of active addiction.
The choice is there to begin yet the further down one route a person travels, the further they may wander away from the alternative and struggle with the path towards freedom.
I have more, this is interesting. Thanks
The roots of a persons addiction can be due to mental health difficulties yet this is not always the case and due to the nature of certain drugs, like alcohol which change the way a persons brain works over time, their behaviour becomes less of a choice and more of a compulsion to 'feel better' hence the self-medicating.
Many of the original choices people had are no longer available once the stigma attached to 'the problem' has taken root along with the actual problem which is now one in its own right and yet the help available is only useful if the person is willing to try it. Many attempts to curb the addictive behaviour may be made by the addict and family, friends etc.
Genetics, learned behaviour, core beliefs, emotional understanding and many other components make up a person yet only those who choose to ABSTAIN can begin to learn new skills and tools through CBT and other therapy systems as the brain otherwise has little chance of understanding while its drowned in the fog of active addiction.
The choice is there to begin yet the further down one route a person travels, the further they may wander away from the alternative and struggle with the path towards freedom.
I have more, this is interesting. Thanks
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No one chooses to be an addict, but they can choose to treat it.
Regardless of compulsions, and obsessions, and mental health issues as mentioned here - any issue that comprise the backbone of addiction can be treated. That's THE choice. Treat or not treat.
I have seen people state that the existence of addiction is fueled by denial - so if one is in denial - how can one treat what one doesn't accept?
This to me is like me saying a stop sign is yellow because I say so. A problem is a problem. I don't know ANY addict that doesn't have problems associated with their addiction - in fact I have known abusers that were not addicts who also had the same problems associated with their DOC. So the denial of the addiction doesn't fly as its denying the problems associated with it. The stop sign is red no matter how many times I say its not.
Refusing to treat it is a choice.
Regardless of compulsions, and obsessions, and mental health issues as mentioned here - any issue that comprise the backbone of addiction can be treated. That's THE choice. Treat or not treat.
I have seen people state that the existence of addiction is fueled by denial - so if one is in denial - how can one treat what one doesn't accept?
This to me is like me saying a stop sign is yellow because I say so. A problem is a problem. I don't know ANY addict that doesn't have problems associated with their addiction - in fact I have known abusers that were not addicts who also had the same problems associated with their DOC. So the denial of the addiction doesn't fly as its denying the problems associated with it. The stop sign is red no matter how many times I say its not.
Refusing to treat it is a choice.
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"So my choice, as a family member, boils down to how much chaos and drama, anxiety and illness I will allow to enter my own life due to someone else's mental disorder."
^^^^^THIS!!!
In my case, I am trying to recover from Codependency. This is a MUCH more insidious condition that chemical dependency. At least with substances, you know what you are dealing with. Codependency is woven into fabric of society, and is the dark side of being a nice, loving person.
My choices in this, is who I hang around. I have to decide to practice self care, which often means having nothing to do with people who want to use me or hate me. They can be friends or family members.
^^^^^THIS!!!
In my case, I am trying to recover from Codependency. This is a MUCH more insidious condition that chemical dependency. At least with substances, you know what you are dealing with. Codependency is woven into fabric of society, and is the dark side of being a nice, loving person.
My choices in this, is who I hang around. I have to decide to practice self care, which often means having nothing to do with people who want to use me or hate me. They can be friends or family members.
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Sorry, one other thing to add. While alcoholism is no more a choice than cancer. Failing to treat it is. Example in my case is my qualifier who binge drinks into a rotten horrific mess. He has windows of opportunity between his binges where he is totally dry for weeks and lucid enough to choose true recovery. I see him able to put work and attention into his fitness and into our own relationship. He will throw himself into it 100%. But I fail to see these efforts thrown into addiction treatment (or really anything else in his life that is too painful or uncomfortable to tend to). He was to do 90 in 90, out of his mouth as a commitment. When the weekend came and I was available, the meeting went out the window because he CHOSE to instead do something more fun. That to me is where choice really comes into it. Now when he is in a drunken stupor, no I don't believe he can choose at that very moment to stop. Not when the tornado is going. But in these small windows of opportunity, he most certainly can choose treatment and commitment to treatment. If an alcoholic can use that window to choose treatment, they are giving themselves a dramatically smaller chance at relapse.
Again, I am talking about a binger here. I don't know about alcoholics that drink daily if it would be different?
Again, I am talking about a binger here. I don't know about alcoholics that drink daily if it would be different?
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