Timing
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Timing
I just responded to pocketbook's thread about her possibly alcoholic sort-of-boyfriend, and it got me thinking.
My response included the timeline of the beginnings of my relationship with AXH. Then I thought of my current relationship, and how we have known each other for over 18 months at this point. And THEN I thought...oh my heck, at this point in my relationship with AXH, we had gotten married AND had a baby AND he had started drinking again. In the time my gentleman friend and I have spent developing a relationship with each other, and with each other's kids, and easing ourselves into cohabitation, and addressing normal relationship growing pains in a healthy and functional way, AXH and I reconnected, got engaged, got married, had a baby, and things had turned toxic. Amazing.
I tell every young person who will listen, including my own daughters, to think long and hard before marrying someone until they have been in a relationship with that person for at least two years, preferably living together for at least one year. I'm not saying that would have changed my outcome with AXH (after all, we were SOULMATES who loved each other as NOBODY HAD EVER LOVED BEFORE *snort*), but dang...I wish more people would take their time. Especially young people, who aren't battling biological clocks...
My response included the timeline of the beginnings of my relationship with AXH. Then I thought of my current relationship, and how we have known each other for over 18 months at this point. And THEN I thought...oh my heck, at this point in my relationship with AXH, we had gotten married AND had a baby AND he had started drinking again. In the time my gentleman friend and I have spent developing a relationship with each other, and with each other's kids, and easing ourselves into cohabitation, and addressing normal relationship growing pains in a healthy and functional way, AXH and I reconnected, got engaged, got married, had a baby, and things had turned toxic. Amazing.
I tell every young person who will listen, including my own daughters, to think long and hard before marrying someone until they have been in a relationship with that person for at least two years, preferably living together for at least one year. I'm not saying that would have changed my outcome with AXH (after all, we were SOULMATES who loved each other as NOBODY HAD EVER LOVED BEFORE *snort*), but dang...I wish more people would take their time. Especially young people, who aren't battling biological clocks...
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Yep. Its amazing how vastly different things go.
I am currently with a nice woman. It will be a year in August we have been dating. In that time we have not had a cross word, a disagreement, a discussion of the differences in English language definitions, or anything but a nice co existing time together.
In the first 12 months of being with an alcoholic, I was hard to communicate with, disrespectful, argumentative, lack of caring, and had to have multiple discussions at what constituted fidelity and infidelity. What sex was. We had been in no less than 3 blow up fights.
Its not that I am in a too good to be true relationship now. Its that I am in a normal relationship again. We don't need to discuss what constitutes respect and fidelity and communication. You just feel its understood pretty standardly.
I don't worry about what she is doing when we aren't together, or when the next drama will be. She doesn't have unstable friends or life dramas.
In my relationship with my XAGF it was one life altering drama after another. I got caught up in these simply by association. She was draining my wallet, losing job after job. I had to lie to cover for her.
Now I got a great new job, saving my money, enjoying what normal life brings again.
Funny thing is, you can have that normal existence for 30 years. But 4 years with an alcoholic can seem like the only 4 years you can remember.
I am currently with a nice woman. It will be a year in August we have been dating. In that time we have not had a cross word, a disagreement, a discussion of the differences in English language definitions, or anything but a nice co existing time together.
In the first 12 months of being with an alcoholic, I was hard to communicate with, disrespectful, argumentative, lack of caring, and had to have multiple discussions at what constituted fidelity and infidelity. What sex was. We had been in no less than 3 blow up fights.
Its not that I am in a too good to be true relationship now. Its that I am in a normal relationship again. We don't need to discuss what constitutes respect and fidelity and communication. You just feel its understood pretty standardly.
I don't worry about what she is doing when we aren't together, or when the next drama will be. She doesn't have unstable friends or life dramas.
In my relationship with my XAGF it was one life altering drama after another. I got caught up in these simply by association. She was draining my wallet, losing job after job. I had to lie to cover for her.
Now I got a great new job, saving my money, enjoying what normal life brings again.
Funny thing is, you can have that normal existence for 30 years. But 4 years with an alcoholic can seem like the only 4 years you can remember.
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I lived with and dated my AH for 2 years prior to getting married. Within 3 months of the wedding he was well on the way of becoming an alcoholic. Prior to the wedding, he didn't drink, or barely drank.
So I tell everyone 4 years. 4 years to truly know someone.
So I tell everyone 4 years. 4 years to truly know someone.
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Originally Posted by SaveYourHeart 
I lived with and dated my AH for 2 years prior to getting married. Within 3 months of the wedding he was well on the way of becoming an alcoholic. Prior to the wedding, he didn't drink, or barely drank.
So I tell everyone 4 years. 4 years to truly know someone.
So I tell everyone 4 years. 4 years to truly know someone.
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Very true....though I will say the rule of thumb should be around that two year mark where you have spent holidays and been around the family enough, him, his friends, etc. And even then....it's a gamble, but at least your odds are solid.
4 years is great and heck 5, 6, or 7 years even better. But being realistic I would say at least 2. I didn't know my BF was as severe an addict as he was until 6 months into the relationship. He told me on our second date he was separated and divorcing and a recovering alcoholic. I didn't listen to my gut and was naive thinking 'oh cool thats good you are maturely admitting it and working on it"....and then I stuck around going on year 3. Had no idea what recovering A looks like. My idea of it was after-school special, not the hell I have seen.
His wife he is separated from however, he married after 3 months of dating. She had no idea about all of his issues and now is basically stuck. She has a son with him and lives with his mother in the boonies and can't even return to her country (well, she can but now she has a son here). I know I have it bad with him but I can walk at any moment with no ties. He regrets it everyday, and God knows she has to. (and yes I know this situation is insanity, I'm just replying to the thread)
4 years is great and heck 5, 6, or 7 years even better. But being realistic I would say at least 2. I didn't know my BF was as severe an addict as he was until 6 months into the relationship. He told me on our second date he was separated and divorcing and a recovering alcoholic. I didn't listen to my gut and was naive thinking 'oh cool thats good you are maturely admitting it and working on it"....and then I stuck around going on year 3. Had no idea what recovering A looks like. My idea of it was after-school special, not the hell I have seen.
His wife he is separated from however, he married after 3 months of dating. She had no idea about all of his issues and now is basically stuck. She has a son with him and lives with his mother in the boonies and can't even return to her country (well, she can but now she has a son here). I know I have it bad with him but I can walk at any moment with no ties. He regrets it everyday, and God knows she has to. (and yes I know this situation is insanity, I'm just replying to the thread)
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We all have our own insanities, big and small. From being trapped in a foreign country, to the little crap we hear every day and get shared in Quackers (my latest: AXH, who more than once during our son's first two years actually dared to ask me if I would let him TAKE DS and move back to our home town 500 miles away, and he would make sure I got to see him because he couldn't be happy living anywhere but our home town, and just last week while he was visiting that home town with DS, told me "this is why I was so glad to leave [hometown] and never ever wanted to look back.")
Our specific insanities are different, but the theme is the same. Nobody can break the cycle for us. We have to do it for ourselves, in our own time. Hopefully we learn some lessons. I sure did!
Our specific insanities are different, but the theme is the same. Nobody can break the cycle for us. We have to do it for ourselves, in our own time. Hopefully we learn some lessons. I sure did!
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It has not been a cycle for me. I had never been around high functioning alcoholics as far as someone in my life. Knowing someone drinks wasn't the same as realizing I was dealing with the 600 lb gorilla of alcoholism.
Had a normal life before. Had a bad chapter with a drunk. Have resumed normal living after ridding myself of it.
It doesn't need to be part of a cycle to affect us. If anything it gave me complete clarity on what not to do ever again.
In the nearly 4 years I was with my XAGF I never felt comfortable introducing her to my family and never really wanted to get ingrained into hers. Despite her best efforts to do otherwise.
My current met my family at 5 months. I have met hers. It has been peace on earth for all concerned.
Had a normal life before. Had a bad chapter with a drunk. Have resumed normal living after ridding myself of it.
It doesn't need to be part of a cycle to affect us. If anything it gave me complete clarity on what not to do ever again.
In the nearly 4 years I was with my XAGF I never felt comfortable introducing her to my family and never really wanted to get ingrained into hers. Despite her best efforts to do otherwise.
My current met my family at 5 months. I have met hers. It has been peace on earth for all concerned.
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With all due respect, Hang, you spent nearly four years with your AGF, and the cycle was in that relationship. Like you, I had no context for addiction before AXH, and have not since I left him. That doesn't mean that the years of our relationship/marriage didn't involve a highly toxic and dysfunctional cycle. I think we do a disservice to characterize people in your situation, or my situation, as somehow less damaged, or less sick, than those who have had the misfortune to grow up in this kind of environment and live in the cycle for more than three, or four, or five years.
I get what you're trying to communicate, though. But I would NEVER presume that I am somehow more evolved, or better adjusted, or farther along in recovery than someone who has more experience and a longer history of dealing with addicts. To me that's just another manifestation of terminal uniqueness--an attitude that kept me hooked in the toxic dance with my AXH for years.
I get what you're trying to communicate, though. But I would NEVER presume that I am somehow more evolved, or better adjusted, or farther along in recovery than someone who has more experience and a longer history of dealing with addicts. To me that's just another manifestation of terminal uniqueness--an attitude that kept me hooked in the toxic dance with my AXH for years.
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Cycle meaning repetitively repeating the same things.
I had a bad relationship with an alcoholic. It will be my one and only. I hadn't had before and won't need to again. That cycle.
As to the 4 years. I readily admit she did a better job at manipulating me than I had ever experienced. I own that. Again. Won't be repeated. Shame on me for assuming I would be the stabilizing force in her life.
There seems to be a common pattern that codies keep repeating the people that they are attracted to. Some here that are highly thought of readily admit to being with more than one alcoholic. Not judging them. That s the cycle I was identifying with. I just use them as my model for learning at what not to do, other than know to not be like them. I don't need to go through more than one addicted person in my life.
I had a bad relationship with an alcoholic. It will be my one and only. I hadn't had before and won't need to again. That cycle.
As to the 4 years. I readily admit she did a better job at manipulating me than I had ever experienced. I own that. Again. Won't be repeated. Shame on me for assuming I would be the stabilizing force in her life.
There seems to be a common pattern that codies keep repeating the people that they are attracted to. Some here that are highly thought of readily admit to being with more than one alcoholic. Not judging them. That s the cycle I was identifying with. I just use them as my model for learning at what not to do, other than know to not be like them. I don't need to go through more than one addicted person in my life.
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Originally Posted by Hangnbyathread
I had a bad relationship with an alcoholic. It will be my one and only. I hadn't had before and won't need to again. That cycle.
Originally Posted by Hangnbyathread
As to the 4 years. I readily admit she did a better job at manipulating me than I had ever experienced. I own that. Again. Won't be repeated. Shame on me for assuming I would be the stabilizing force in her life..
I'm sorry. All I hear are angry resentments & you taking her battle with addiction personally.... because YES - who ARE you to assume that you know exactly what is right for any other person? How can you clearly see their path or know their rock bottom? Why didn't *you* leave long before the 4 years & things had dissolved so badly if you had no cycles or patterns prior to & within that relationship?
Originally Posted by Hangnbyathread
There seems to be a common pattern that codies keep repeating the people that they are attracted to. Some here that are highly thought of readily admit to being with more than one alcoholic. Not judging them. That s the cycle I was identifying with. I just use them as my model for learning at what not to do, other than know to not be like them. I don't need to go through more than one addicted person in my life.
Originally Posted by Wisconsin
Our specific insanities are different, but the theme is the same. Nobody can break the cycle for us. We have to do it for ourselves, in our own time. Hopefully we learn some lessons. I sure did!
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The main reason I stay here is to help mostly men that have been similarly exposed to being with an addict. It was a huge life learning lesson for me. They can relate with me better than a female perspective. Dating etc becomes hard to discuss when you're a male in a sea of females that may be pretty upset with the male population as a whole because of what they have chosen to be with thus far.
And also for me to learn more about how to see them coming that I may not know. (Although that part seems to have been accomplished. The traits are pretty common). Or those that wish to break away quickly and cleanly and not have to spend months plodding through what could be long slow agonizing methods of being told how to not be a codie. Fix yourself first then get addictions out of your life. Kind of the reverse order for me. And I'm not alone. I have had females here reach out as well. And I help them if we can relate well enough.
Some of here are not codies. We are here because this site is like an emotional Emergency Room when you've reached the end of your levels of understanding on what your dealing with. Not everyone needs the same kind of help to get back into a healthy place in their head.
As far as I know none of us here are professional counselors.
I have been told that we are to share our personal experiences that have worked for us. I share mine.
I have helped more than one person here, of both genders, find a path that they could relate to and they have gotten a handle on things more effectively. I don't owe anyone any apologies for that.
This is a recovery board. That comes in a lot of forms and backgrounds. We aren't all here to change ourselves or our behaviors. Simply to learn about addictions, patterns and the type people that are attracted to them and why. Like a cancer we want to be rid of it. Not spend time trying to learn how it will grow and affect us.
They just need to learn what they are dealing with to make a clean break and get a life back.
When someone comes off as an authority on anything they are not professionally qualified to , it becomes an opinion. Which we are all entitled to. As well as having those opinions challenged. If you don't care for mine, I'm totally at peace with that. You can challenge it or ignore it.
And as in any profession, you learn that there are good one and bad ones, yet they still are considered professionals. Sharing what we know about our experiences may help others avoid a bad representation of a professional in a field they are exposed to. I have watched many here suggest that a line of counseling by a health care professional seems wrong. This may very well be what helps someone avoid making a bad choice on a professional. Just by being able to hear those experiences.
It isn't my intent to offend. It isn't my intent to be a sheep either. If someone is trying to to tell me how things need to be and they have been with multiple addicts and have not figured out how to NOT be with them, their opinion will not be in a context that I would find helpful. Others may relish hearing what they think. It may make them feel like that person and therefore better. Totally fine for them. There are MANY paths to recovery.
I am pretty sure there is a block function here. I have no problem if someone wishes to block me.
I may not continue to stay here despite being asked to. Or I'll get PMd and can directly help. Then I decide, if I can help one its better than none. It helps me feel like I can give back to those that helped me. Maybe a fault I have to work on. Why should I help anyone. I didn't get them into this situation. Why spend my time on them?
As you pointed out, I don't have these addictions in my life anymore. Coming here does help my feel great gratitude about that. I see the endless streams of them arrive. I was one them once. It helps remind me of how easy it was to get drawn in by something you either didn't know about or thought you understood. If I don't feel like I'm being helpful I wouldn't be here. If I'm not helpful to YOU (not specifically you rhetorically you), go in peace and find it somehow.
For those I have offended I have others that go out of their way to thank me for my inputs.
I wish all of you a better life, even if you don't care to hear my perspective about why.
And also for me to learn more about how to see them coming that I may not know. (Although that part seems to have been accomplished. The traits are pretty common). Or those that wish to break away quickly and cleanly and not have to spend months plodding through what could be long slow agonizing methods of being told how to not be a codie. Fix yourself first then get addictions out of your life. Kind of the reverse order for me. And I'm not alone. I have had females here reach out as well. And I help them if we can relate well enough.
Some of here are not codies. We are here because this site is like an emotional Emergency Room when you've reached the end of your levels of understanding on what your dealing with. Not everyone needs the same kind of help to get back into a healthy place in their head.
As far as I know none of us here are professional counselors.
I have been told that we are to share our personal experiences that have worked for us. I share mine.
I have helped more than one person here, of both genders, find a path that they could relate to and they have gotten a handle on things more effectively. I don't owe anyone any apologies for that.
This is a recovery board. That comes in a lot of forms and backgrounds. We aren't all here to change ourselves or our behaviors. Simply to learn about addictions, patterns and the type people that are attracted to them and why. Like a cancer we want to be rid of it. Not spend time trying to learn how it will grow and affect us.
They just need to learn what they are dealing with to make a clean break and get a life back.
When someone comes off as an authority on anything they are not professionally qualified to , it becomes an opinion. Which we are all entitled to. As well as having those opinions challenged. If you don't care for mine, I'm totally at peace with that. You can challenge it or ignore it.
And as in any profession, you learn that there are good one and bad ones, yet they still are considered professionals. Sharing what we know about our experiences may help others avoid a bad representation of a professional in a field they are exposed to. I have watched many here suggest that a line of counseling by a health care professional seems wrong. This may very well be what helps someone avoid making a bad choice on a professional. Just by being able to hear those experiences.
It isn't my intent to offend. It isn't my intent to be a sheep either. If someone is trying to to tell me how things need to be and they have been with multiple addicts and have not figured out how to NOT be with them, their opinion will not be in a context that I would find helpful. Others may relish hearing what they think. It may make them feel like that person and therefore better. Totally fine for them. There are MANY paths to recovery.
I am pretty sure there is a block function here. I have no problem if someone wishes to block me.
I may not continue to stay here despite being asked to. Or I'll get PMd and can directly help. Then I decide, if I can help one its better than none. It helps me feel like I can give back to those that helped me. Maybe a fault I have to work on. Why should I help anyone. I didn't get them into this situation. Why spend my time on them?
As you pointed out, I don't have these addictions in my life anymore. Coming here does help my feel great gratitude about that. I see the endless streams of them arrive. I was one them once. It helps remind me of how easy it was to get drawn in by something you either didn't know about or thought you understood. If I don't feel like I'm being helpful I wouldn't be here. If I'm not helpful to YOU (not specifically you rhetorically you), go in peace and find it somehow.
For those I have offended I have others that go out of their way to thank me for my inputs.
I wish all of you a better life, even if you don't care to hear my perspective about why.
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FWIW I find this site is really helpful even if I don't consider myself codependent or caught in a cycle. I'm as sure as I can possibly be that I will never end up in a relationship (of any kind) with an addict again. However, I did spend 25 years with one (more than half my life), and places like this site or AlAnon help me to understand how it affected me. I am also stuck still dealing with this alcoholic because we have a child together, so advice and support on this is very welcome.
I didn't stay so long because I was codependent, I stayed because until the last few years of the marriage, I had no frickin' clue about the magnitude ex's problems with alcohol. Then when I did begin to get a clue, I spent a couple of years trying to change myself so that he wouldn't "have to" drink. And then, when that didn't work, I left, figuring it was better for Kid to have a mother who was in a good place and moving forward than to have an "intact" parent-unit. And I STILL didn't really grasp just how bad things were with ex, until the progression of the disease and deterioration in his functioning made it impossible to miss.
So even if you're not codependent in any way, there is still a lot of insight and wisdom here.
I didn't stay so long because I was codependent, I stayed because until the last few years of the marriage, I had no frickin' clue about the magnitude ex's problems with alcohol. Then when I did begin to get a clue, I spent a couple of years trying to change myself so that he wouldn't "have to" drink. And then, when that didn't work, I left, figuring it was better for Kid to have a mother who was in a good place and moving forward than to have an "intact" parent-unit. And I STILL didn't really grasp just how bad things were with ex, until the progression of the disease and deterioration in his functioning made it impossible to miss.
So even if you're not codependent in any way, there is still a lot of insight and wisdom here.
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Ok, sure, whatever. I have no dog in this fight Hangn, but maybe ask yourself why a few simple questions raised your hackles so tremendously.
"Methinks he doth protest too much" Maybe go back re-read to see if your responses in *this* thread alone match up with your claims made in your defensive post; I don't see it, it doesn't line up for me. Your actions don't match your words, IMO. Heck- reread MY post - I never questioned most of what you defend so vehemently in your reply. Yet - all that word vomit - I really AM sorry if I struck a nerve.
So go ahead & block me if that is your preference, that's about you not me. Nothing in my posts even suggests such a thing to be necessary. But don't do it before you take me seriously on the suggestion that you read up on the topic of men & shame & vulnerability & how they process it so much differently than women do. I think it could be a real game changer for you; best of luck!
"Methinks he doth protest too much" Maybe go back re-read to see if your responses in *this* thread alone match up with your claims made in your defensive post; I don't see it, it doesn't line up for me. Your actions don't match your words, IMO. Heck- reread MY post - I never questioned most of what you defend so vehemently in your reply. Yet - all that word vomit - I really AM sorry if I struck a nerve.
So go ahead & block me if that is your preference, that's about you not me. Nothing in my posts even suggests such a thing to be necessary. But don't do it before you take me seriously on the suggestion that you read up on the topic of men & shame & vulnerability & how they process it so much differently than women do. I think it could be a real game changer for you; best of luck!
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
Ok, sure, whatever. I have no dog in this fight Hangn, but maybe ask yourself why a few simple questions raised your hackles so tremendously.
"Methinks he doth protest too much" Maybe go back re-read to see if your responses in *this* thread alone match up with your claims made in your defensive post; I don't see it, it doesn't line up for me. Your actions don't match your words, IMO. Heck- reread MY post - I never questioned most of what you defend so vehemently in your reply. Yet - all that word vomit - I really AM sorry if I struck a nerve.
So go ahead & block me if that is your preference, that's about you not me. Nothing in my posts even suggests such a thing to be necessary. But don't do it before you take me seriously on the suggestion that you read up on the topic of men & shame & vulnerability & how they process it so much differently than women do. I think it could be a real game changer for you; best of luck!
"Methinks he doth protest too much" Maybe go back re-read to see if your responses in *this* thread alone match up with your claims made in your defensive post; I don't see it, it doesn't line up for me. Your actions don't match your words, IMO. Heck- reread MY post - I never questioned most of what you defend so vehemently in your reply. Yet - all that word vomit - I really AM sorry if I struck a nerve.
So go ahead & block me if that is your preference, that's about you not me. Nothing in my posts even suggests such a thing to be necessary. But don't do it before you take me seriously on the suggestion that you read up on the topic of men & shame & vulnerability & how they process it so much differently than women do. I think it could be a real game changer for you; best of luck!
I have no problem with you expressing yourself in any way you choose. I'm quite comfortable at the end of my day I'm going to be just as happy as I was before I read anything here. As far as I know I have never singled you or your post out. Im open to correction if I'm wrong. But for someone who admittedly has no dog in this fight as you put it, you chose to single me out. So perhaps I inadvertantly said something you felt I was applying towards you.
It sounded important to you. So I gave you a directed response. I'll still welcome your participation anytime you like. I have no hard feelings towards you. Not upset at all.
If you don't like my message that doesn't mean I change it.
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Originally Posted by Hangnbyathread
I'll still welcome your participation anytime you like.
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Originally Posted by Hangnbyathread
It has not been a cycle for me. ...
Had a normal life before. Had a bad chapter with a drunk. Have resumed normal living after ridding myself of it....
It doesn't need to be part of a cycle to affect us....
In the nearly 4 years I was with my XAGF I never felt comfortable introducing her to my family and never really wanted to get ingrained into hers. Despite her best efforts to do otherwise..
Had a normal life before. Had a bad chapter with a drunk. Have resumed normal living after ridding myself of it....
It doesn't need to be part of a cycle to affect us....
In the nearly 4 years I was with my XAGF I never felt comfortable introducing her to my family and never really wanted to get ingrained into hers. Despite her best efforts to do otherwise..
So, if I may ask, what kept you in your relationship with an active alcoholic for four years?
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Wisconsin, loved the soulmate snort, HA! Yeah, I recall thinking something similar, and I actually put in the recommended time..still messed it up. I do agree with your statement though. I think most times the longer you are with someone before marriage, the better off you are at figuring out who someone really is behind all the romantical stuff. Not sure why so many seem to rush to the altar in this day and age.
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See, funny you mention this. My parents always bragged how they met and knew "that was it" after 4 days. They got married after 4 months. Did this possibly affect my jumping into marriage so fast, believing that we clicked? I would say most definitely YES, among other things. But my parents' marriage was not ideal, my mom being super controlling, and my dad never dared to stand up for himself, always saying, "yes dear." And there was no substance abuse of any kind, but I had to get this personality of mine somewhere, those dysfunctional coping skills had to come from somewhere.
Honestly, I feel like I keep "growing up" and maturing. Still not into relationships, though.
So I agree with your piece of advice, Wisconsin. There is that old saying that still burns me a lot: Marry in haste, repent at leisure. Maybe it works for some people, but did not work for me.
Honestly, I feel like I keep "growing up" and maturing. Still not into relationships, though.
So I agree with your piece of advice, Wisconsin. There is that old saying that still burns me a lot: Marry in haste, repent at leisure. Maybe it works for some people, but did not work for me.
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Originally Posted by LexieCat
How very generous of you. Glad to see your ego is still intact after your brush with that pesky alcoholic.
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