Ituvia

I am confused about this one. Do they actually know they are lying? believe that they can never get caught? or is it alcoholic delusion that makes them think they won't get caught?

FallenAngelina

All alcoholics aren't the same. My XABF hid his heavy daily drinking from everyone but me and had no illusions that he could very well be caught by his family and friends. He lied to those who asked, "Have you been drinking," but was well aware that he was lying. He never lied to me about his drinking because I never asked him not to drink. Observing this, I learned that the quickest way to get an alcoholic to lie to you is to ask about his drinking and an even better way to get him to lie is to tell him to stop. But yes, my XABF was always well aware of his lies. His delusional alcoholic thinking is that he can stop on his own and has no need of AA, but he is very aware of his own lying and hiding the booze.

Hangnbyathread

A combination of all of those. My ex was a pathological liar. It was so quick, so easy and so effortless, it becomes impossible to separate truth from lies.

Which follows thier plan wonderfully.

They know they are lying. They know it's wrong. They know what they are doing.

LexieCat

If they are lying "deliberately" then by definition they know it. You can't be deliberate about something you aren't aware of.

Now, many alcoholics utter false things they believe to be true ("I can quit anytime I want to," "It's your fault that I drink so much"), and those are just the product of alcoholic thinking.

dandylion

From my point of view...I think that it may be a combination of things....
I think that some do deliberatey lie to avoid detection or to keep from getting "in trouble".....
For those who drink heavily enough to have blackouts or to have some brain damage (and memory loss)....I think that they do a lot of confabulation (filling in the blank places of their memory)....Confabulation is normal for young children and those with memory loss...like, with strokes, etc..
LOL...and, of course there is the fact that they are usually up to their waist in denial....
So, combining memory loss, and confabulation to cover for that... and, denial...and the desire to stay out of trouble or to hide their shame....you have a pretty good set up for lying.....
Do I think they know they are lying?....sometimes...

This is only my take on the subject...and I know that there may be others who disagree...

atalose

Alcoholics and addicts hurt others because their addiction comes first before everything else. And since addiction is their top priority, they will do anything it takes to use/drink the way they want. That means lying to you, stealing from you, manipulating you, deceiving you, abusing you, hurting you and breaking your heart.

Do they know they lie, absolutely! Do they care, no. Lying becomes the oxygen they need to keep on drinking/using. And when they do find someone who believes their lies, it’s like they hit the enabler lottery.

Someday soon Ituvia you will come to see and accept that while you were fighting for him and the relationship you were actually fighting to be lied to, fighting to be taken for granted, fighting to be disappointed and fighting to be hurt again.

Maudcat

I don't ask my sib if he has been drinkng because he will lie and say no.
So, yeah, lying is part of the their deal.
I also agree, to a degree, with Dandy that sometimes alcoholics are so damaged in the head that they confabulate because they don't remember.
My sib does that too.

HoldOnLoosely

I think sometimes they know they're lying (b/c they don't think they'll get caught or want to get caught, shame, guilt, fear of the consequences) and sometimes not (it almost becomes habitual - an automatic response with no hesitation - it's unsettling and baffling)...and sometimes I think there's a bunch of justifications for the lying in their mind and it makes complete sense to them to be dishonest and not tell the truth. For example, my husband didn't tell the truth about something and one time he said to the marriage counselor "I couldn't tell the truth" and before he could share with her his reasons she stopped him and replied "Couldn't? Or was it a choice? It was a choice."

It's a choice - whether it's deliberate or not - and only they can pause, reflect and make the necessary changes. Unfortunately, they're hurting themselves - they drift away from their own values and who they truly are.

Nothing you can do except step back and give them room to move...and live your life in accordance to your own values.

AnvilheadII

first off, not every alcoholic behaves in the exact same way, so we do need to watch lumping them all into one lot with limited traits.

not everything an alcoholic PERSON does is directly related to or an outward display of the effects of the alcohol on the person.

lying ABOUT alcohol - how much, how often, how recently - those are general and pretty global characteristics of the denial mechanism.

lying about OTHER things - how, what, when, where and why - are attributable to the PERSON.

big difference in lying about how much i had to drink last night versus lying about who i slept with, or stole from, or struck in anger last nite.

flower959

I'm with dandylion on this one. It's a combination. It'll drive you batty trying to figure out what goes on in the alcoholics head.

About 1 month ago, I took a sip of my AHs pop can. Sure enough, it was alcohol. That was a very calculated deceit. I'm just taking a wild guess that he did it because he knows how I feel about the drinking and yet, wanted to do it anyway. So now, I just trust him even less.

atalose

Very true!!! Thank you for the reminder not to lump them all into one lot. You make excellent points!!!

FireSprite

^This, yes. RAH has struggled a lot with lying but it is due to his ADHD & being raised by a compulsive liar (mother) which affected him in ways like giving him a different perception of "little white lies" compared to the rest of us. It's still a knee-jerk reaction he has to be mindful about when he's stressed or feeling cornered somehow.

SparkleKitty

Who knows. When someone shows me who they are, I believe them.

But for what it's worth, I personally believe that when someone (anyone, not just an alcoholic) lies to me, they are usually lying to themselves first.

honeypig

What was oddest to me about XAH's lying was that he lied about things there was no earthly reason to lie about. For instance, he called me one afternoon about the time he'd normally get done w/work and said he and the guy he was working with were going to put in a little OT and he'd be home late. I thought nothing of it. He got home about the time he said he would and that was that.

Bear in mind that this was long before I had any inkling that there was a problem with alcohol--outwardly, all was fine. He and I would go to a bar once in a while and maybe have drinks on Saturday night while cooking dinner. I had no issue w/him drinking.

Much, much later, he told me that in fact he and this guy had finished up their last job (he was working for a fire-suppression system company at the time, hoods and so on for restaurants, bars, etc.) and decided to have a couple of beers since they were at a bar already. I said "why on earth didn't you just say that? Why did you say you were working OT? You KNOW I wouldn't care if you went out for a while w/your work buddies! WTF?" I don't recall what his answer was, or if he even had one.

Another weird example: They'd just built a new gas station near us. As we walked the dogs one AM, I was making idle conversation and said "I haven't been in that new gas station yet, have you?" He said "no" and the talk moved on. Again, much, much later, he told me that he actually HAD been in that gas station, to buy cigarettes (which habit he also hid from me). He said that when I asked the question, his mind kicked into overdrive--"why is she asking? does she know I bought smokes there? If I say yes, I have been in there, will she ask me what for? What do I say if she asks that? If I say no, what if she says we should stop in and get a coffee and the guy recognizes me? Do I pretend I don't know him?" and on and on. Holy carpfish, I couldn't BELIEVE the avalanche of possibilities unleashed in his mind by that simple question!

And knowing that all that was going on in his head every time I said something that might in some way touch on his secret life, it's really no surprise there was no time or energy left to actually pay attention to me or much of anything else...

healthyagain

They first and foremost lie to themselves. We codependents just happen to be around them, and lying btw might be a very useful tool to keep us around. They will lie if they think that they have a reason for it. What we think is irrelevant. My ex simply lied to keep me around, and in the end the lies got a bit bizarre. They get crazier and crazier as the disease progresses. Just like quacking.

steve-in-kville

Quite honestly, I was amazed how much my wife knew about my drinking, but just didn't say a whole lot. Only thing she never really knew was HOW MUCH I was consuming at the end.

I was living in a dream world, a fantasy so to speak. I thought what I was doing was okay. I was wrong.

steve-in-kville

Trying being the alcoholic who tried (and failed) to sort it all out!!

Sasha1972

I think for some alcoholics (not all) the line between fantasy and reality gets blurred as time goes on. They have to convince themselves that things are true when they really are not true (e.g. "I don't have a drinking problem", "It would be a really good idea to get drunk right now", etc), and eventually the distinction between what is actually true and what they want to be true disappears.

My ex 's second wife opened a credit card statement in his name with a slew of liquor store charges from a nearby town, from a time ex claimed he was sober. She confronted him with it. He said someone stole his wallet and drove to that town and bought a lot of booze. She said she had also gotten a speeding ticket for his car in that town at that time. He said right, I forgot, someone stole my car too, but they brought it back.

This sort of thing happened during our marriage too - he would say things that were clearly impossible, and get upset when I didn't believe him (not just about drinking - about why he was late for some appointment, what he had done with some household item, etc). I eventually started to realize that he really did believe what he was saying - it was a case of "if I really want this to be true, then it is true". I don't know if this counts as pathological lying or what.

(I think it may be connected to growing up in a dysfunctional alcoholic family in which kids are constantly being told things which are not true - we're a great family, we're fine, everyone's happy - and later in life, they adopt the same flexible attitude to truth).

steve-in-kville

That's even a level up from where I was. I'd stop by the grocery store to buy a gallon of milk, whether we needed it or not, and get cash back on my debit card. No evidence when you buy liquor with cash, eh?

Until she figured out I drove 10 minutes out of my way to that grocery store... because it shared the same parking lot as my liquor store!!

honeypig

Yep, XAH always paid cash for his booze too. It was convenient that our bank had a branch right in the grocery store where he bought it. He had the freaking account number memorized!

I wondered why he always seemed to have a lot of cash on him, like $200, but his answer was that it was "just in case." And I bought that, b/c he was a guy who liked to be prepared....