ZenButterfly

Hi all,
Sorry if I am coming across as negative and whining, I've been in AA for 90 days and I'm really getting fed up with it. I'm very introverted and independent and my sponsor keeps trying to get me to talk more and participate more in fellowship activities. I have some pretty bad social anxiety as well which isn't making things easy. I feel like i keep getting pushed into doing things like making commitments I don't want to do. If I try to make my opinions known I'm just told this is the only way I'm going to be able to stay sober and my life depends on doing all these things.

I am also growing increasingly resentful of this notion that I have to pray twice a day. My main form of spirituality is Buddhism and I can imagine turning my life over to that, but I don't want to pray, I normally meditate and I feel like this should be enough and I shouldn't be forced to engage in prayer if it isn't something I believe in.

I don't know if I should give up on the program. I feel like I should be able to go at my own pace and decide how involved I want to be at this stage of the game, and how involved I want to be with people. I'm feeling pretty unhappy with it right now aside from it just being nice to have somewhere to go where groups of sober people are congregating.

I may just check out Refuge Recovery since I'm already a Buddhist, or Smart Recovery.

I'm looking for thoughts from people who have been through a similar struggle. Many thanks... -z

Forward12

There are many paths to sobriety and AA isn't the only option. You can look into smart like you mentioned, also rational recovery is more of a self help internet/book based program.

D122y

Zen,

I relate.

My AA experience has not been awesome for sure.

I have been to about 12 meetings in my 2 years sober.

There were some nice folks, but none that I wanted to get close with. I didn't want drama, just help getting better.

I could not decide on a sponser. I felt left out generally. I was told... here... that it was because of my infrequent visits. The whole work it for it to work.

I saw several folks that appeared hung over that were...hi time...Sponsers. There were some scary personalities as well. Folks that were agressive talking, wearing muscle shirts. Intimidating.

I would sometimes stare at the cute young female and feel like an old creep. I felt that some men were trying to get close to girls. The older women seemed to almost have to protect them.

I didn't gravitate towards anyone. I felt many seemed sort of wacky and needy. But, I am not that normal, whatever that is.

When I spoke, which was infrequent, I would seem to be selling SR. I bought a Big Book and read most of it. I am aware of the steps.

A women of my chapter killed herself during a black out drunk in my experience w AA. That freaked me out when it comes to resetting a clock on folks.

I feel the stigma, unitentional always, may have set her off. So that part about AA I do not approve.

I always tell folks here, if they slip, that 1 day drunk out of 30 is really good etc. I don't want to mess w people's heads.

Thanks.

Gottalife

Not for me Zen, I tried everything that was going with the possible exception of self help books (I was too messed up mentally to do anything with books) and there was no internet. There was no other path for me. But have you noticed, most alcoholics looking to recover, are different in some way.

When I was in your shoes, more or less, I didn't really accept step one (the problem) although you seem to have that down. Then I absolutely could not go with step two, the spiritual solution. I didn't want to be praying either. And that was fine, it left me free, as you are, to pursue other solutions.

And that would be my suggestion. There is nothing saying you must stay in AA, you need not join in any of the activities or the program if you don't want to. I guess you can see there may be a connection between following those suggestions and achieving permanent sobriety, but you don't have to do it that way if you can find a more suitable method.

The fact that I did not succed in that has no bearing on whether you will succeed or not. The only thing to do is give something else a try, that is the only way to find out. Why hang on grimly in AA, all the time wondering if there wasn't a better way?

For me, when I came back to AA, I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was no other way. With that understanding, strange as it may seem, my reservations about the program and the people in it seemed to evaporate, and I found permanent recovery. I may not have done that had I not first become convinced about my situation.

sweetichick

I had a similar experience being told it was the only way to stay sober. I felt like I was being treated like an idiot and my opinion didn't matter. I started to feel like my sponsor was stalking me. I was told anxiety and depression don't exist only the disease of alcoholism. I found it cultic. That's my experience.

Dee74

ZB - I reckon take a step back and think about it.

Your recovery is the most important thing here.

Maintaining that recovery sometimes that means doing things we don't want to do, especially following the suggestions of others.

I was not particularly willing to take advice when I first got to SR, and I was suspicious of those who offered advice...

but some of the members who POed me the most then actually were a great help to me staying sober in the long run.

Only you can judge whether your recovery will be better off with a new sponsor, or maybe even a new approach away from the 12 steps...

but make sure you're doing it for the right motives first

D

Dee74

I have many friends here whose lives were saved by AA/NA.

I'm sorry so many people seem to have had a bad experience.

Everyone's free to share their experience, but I'd ask that people take special care with the language they use.

It's possible to have a frank and open discussion that is also respectful of other peoples beliefs

Dee
Moderator
SR

LadyBlue0527

ZB, I also can't describe it more accurately than what Gottalife said. I was at the end of my rope with alcohol and was willing to do whatever was necessary to ensure that I never lose mindfulness again as to why I can't drink. I am forever grateful for AA.

I am going to pm you with further thoughts.

schnappi99

I'm in alanon & buddist- a friend from my practice got sober thru AA. I asked him about his experience with his sponsor and the religion prayer question. From his account, the sponsor didn't get into my friend's beliefs or practices at all- they did the program work; inventory, 5th step, background conversations, chekins. I would expect the sponser and he discussed the situation and as long as my friend had some kind of spiritual practice that worked for him it was sufficient.

There are plenty of sick sponsors out there too.

My sponsor is a catholic double-winnner. I've learned a lot of interesting stuff from him as far as how catholics do things, by which many assumptions and judgments I had made were exposed- so thats cool. I've shared some of my practice with him... really thats all just chat though, the program work with him does not include religion.

If my sponsor was telling me to do these christian prayers twice a day as formal instruction I'd find someone else. I do the christian "program" prayers in meetings etc with complete goodwill because I like & respect the message but would not appreciate them being prescribed.

Shitzupuppy

I did not cick with that program. I don't like the idea of being not in control, the HP thing, sponsors or telling my stories in a public room. I'm happy to share everything behind the anonymity of the internet.

I do RR/AVRT which is more of a self-reliant program.

Solarion

Hi, ZenButterfly

You are free to establish boundaries. You are free to say no to suggested commitments. You are free to attend meetings just for the fellowship, and to interact as much or as little as you would like. You are free to go to different meetings.

The role of the sponsor is to guide the sponsee through the steps, not to run their lives. There's a pamphlet about the role of the sponsor.

On the other hand, your sponsor is probably acting with the best of intentions and is just trying to help. Do you have any friends who know you at least somewhat well and who could help you find ways to improve your life?

You are free to end the relationship with your sponsor and find another sponsor, or have none at all.

Sponsorship is not required. Praying is not required. There are different forms of prayer. There are even prayers in Buddhism.

I'm fairly introverted myself, and I understand about not wanting to be pushed into being more outgoing and sociable. On the other hand, I don't mind being around other people as long as nothing is required.

Nowsthetime

Change meetings or get a new sponsor perhaps...

I don't do AA, it is definitely not for me but I have learned from its basic tenants. I have adopted ideas from different methods and found what works for me.

Do not be discouraged it's a lot of trial and error but as long as we are willing to work a plan it will be ok. Have you researched other methods?

August252015

Good comments above, especially from Gottalife (an AA-er like me) and Dee (not an AA-er).

A few thoughts from me-
AA does NOT tell you to pray twice a day. I am not sure if that came from your sponsor or someone else in the program - but it is not the program. As someone else said, AA is a program of suggestions; if you follow the plan as laid out, as suggested you can be sober like those of us who also follow the program.

I am 15+ mo sober (458 days) and am with my second sponsor. I got my first one on day 97 and she was great for a first- extremely important in teaching me the discipline of study and BB-related understanding I have and work on now. My second sponsor is much more a spirit of the law, how to apply the steps to living your best life person....that is perfect for me now.

Have you accepted that you can never drink again? I hear some struggle in your writing (a lot, really) and wonder what the real cause of it is? I know I RAILED against AA for a very long time and kept right on drinking. It wasn't until I knew I was absolutely DONE drinking that my life changed and AA had a CHANCE to work!

The introvert/extrovert thing...I don't buy it as a reason not to follow AA (like I don't by the "God thing" as a reason). I am quite extroverted and I didn't speak til probably somewhere in the 80-100 day range. I just listened- sometimes happily, sometimes not, sometimes really peeved at whatever (program related or not), sometimes grateful as heck....but I did what I was told and kept coming back.

Bottom line- I do accept that any program that helps someone successfully stay sober is a good choice for them. As someone in my home group often says,"I don't know what works for other people, but i DO know what works for me- so I'm sticking with it." AA works for a whole lot of people, and I believe it works the very best when really given a chance.

Good luck- and good choice-making to you.

Bunny211

I've been in the fellowship, and sober, for 2 years. I still have a tough time with prayer and the God concept...as I am not really a believer. I had to find a new sponsor as my old one was beating me over the head with the God thing daily and shaming me and telling me she'd fire me if I didn't "believe." The thing is, you can't just "decide to believe" but you can decide to be willing to TRY and that is where I am at now. My current sponsor doesn't force it on me...she lets me be where I am at, and it works for me. You don't have to pray twice a day either. No one can tell you what you need to do or don't...it is an individual journey. I know I will get a lot of flack from big book thumpers but I tried the "do whatever I was told" bit in AA and I was living a lie and wanted to kill myself...it just didn't work for me to pretend to believe when I didn't. I have a sponsor with whom I can be honest about my struggle to believe and it works for me. There are many in the halls who try to make you feel like your sobriety doesn't "measure up" if you are not screaming your head off about how wonderful God is. I just let that go in one ear and out the other. Don't let this deter you from AA though. There are plenty who have struggled, and still struggle, with the God concept. You're fine. Don't let anyone tell you you're sobriety isn't good enough - you're right where you need to be.

Maudcat

Not sure, Zen, but I believe Refuge Recovery, another recovery program, is Buddhist principle based. Might want to check it out.
AA helped me a lot in early sobriety, and I am grateful forthe support I received there.
At the end of the day, though, it wasn't the recovery program for me.
Good luck.

ThatWasTheOldMe

I disagree. Both are perfectly valid reasons.

OP: You don't have to go to AA to stay sober, particularly if the program makes you uncomfortable for personal reasons. And you sure as he!! don't have to "do what you're told." You're an adult and a human being. You have bodily autonomy, and that includes your right to choose your own commitments.

tomsteve

"I'm looking for thoughts from people who have been through a similar struggle. Many thanks... -z"
morning z. i can understand what youre running into. there can be some rather pushy people in AA that say many things that have to be done to stay sober- things the big book doesnt say.
i didnt run into the problem when i 1st got into AA. i was quite miserable and wanted what the program had to offer. i was willing to go to any lengths for victory over alcohol.
one thing i was certain of was half measures got me drunk. doing things my way got me drunk. my old ideas and selfish,self centeredness did nothing but bring me problems. so i had to let go of my old ideas and start being selfless. i had to start doing servicework for the meetings.
something i realized early on- while working the steps: i wasnt as independant as i thought i was. if i was as independant as i thought i was, then i wouldnt have ended up in AA lookin for help. i was ego centric and thought i could take care of myself and everything.
through working the steps i found out a LOT about myself- why i had resentments,fears, insecurities,etc.
and became free- i was able to give freely so others could recovery.
THEN
i started sliding. one day after a meeting my sponsor said," youre on a pre meditated drunk."
" **** you old man."
about a month later, workin on my house, at the end of the day i said,"**** it. im going to get a 12 pack."
while taking a shower before heading to the store, it hit me like a ton of bricks- i was going to get a 12 pack?!?!?!?! wth is wrong with you,tom!?!?!?!
during the shower, i saw i had been working on that thought for MONTHS. i stopped doing everything i was supposed to do except for going to meetings. i wasnt practicing the principles, wasnt praying, wasnt helping others, wasnt doing any inventory work on me.
i called my sponsor and told him he was right. he said,'glad ya caught it before ya drank. see ya at the meeting " and hung up.

staying sober through AA is about doing what the program as laid out in the big book suggests. something the big book says, which seems that quite a few people miss, is

We feel that elimination of our drinking is but a beginning. A much more important demonstration of our principles lies before us in our respective homes, occupations and affairs. All of us spend much of our spare time in the sort of effort which we are going to describe. A few are fortunate enough to be so situated that they can give nearly all their time to the work.

some people in AA live a fear based program- they feel if they dont go to meetings and do service work, they will get drunk.
some people switched addictions. switched from alcohol to meetings and AA.

both neglect what the program is truly about- recovering from the hopeless state of mind and body and becoming an active, productive member of society- one outside the rooms as well as in.

zen, youre allowed to set boundaries in AA.

Bird615

I am also pretty shy and introverted, but as a few have already mentioned, by the time I got to the program, I was in a pretty desperate state and was about willing to do anything that was suggested to me at the time if it would get me out of the hell I was in.

So that required me to move out of my comfort zone and do things I didn't really want to do. I balked and resisted at some things, like chairing meetings or doing a speaker meeting. I was very afraid to do those things, but at the same time I wanted what they had and was willing to go to any lengths to get it.

As far as how to work the spiritual in one's life, I believe that's a more personal thing. There's no requirement to pray a certain number of times a day or even pray at all if there's something else that works. There can be different ways of praying and I can see meditation as being a form of it.

I have to agree that sometimes the pushiness of well-meaning others can be a bit much to take. When I returned to AA after a long time away, I noticed that some women in my home group were like that, mainly resorting to nagging and guilting to get newcomers to participate. I know they meant well, but I could see why some people would have a problem with that.

Maybe the sponsor is just not a good fit. My sponsors were more encouraging than nagging. If I really, really didn't want to do something I didn't have to, but at the same time, I may not have gotten out of the program all I could have.

Mizzuno

Zen,
I attended AA in the past. I went for a year. I stopped. I rejoined. I stopped. I found it to be very helpful for the time that I was involved. I saw it as a road to gain footing on my newly sober path.

That being said, I do believe there are many many roads to take for recovery. One size does not fit all. This time around, I choose to use this forum, friends and family for support. I mainly trust in myself to keep this boat sailing and so far so good. I have found a million different ways to stay sober throughout my day. The things I tell myself, the actions I take, the structure that I implement. All of those things have kept me sober for the last 2+ months.

Using the AA program does not mean that a person will not use again. I was in a meeting years ago and a woman with 25 years of sobriety had to reset her clock as she drank a week prior. Nothing is fool proof. The program is a suggestion and structured approach because what we were doing obviously was not working. There had to be a new set of ideas to replace the ideas that was hurting us. There are so many different ideas and ways though.

I was thinking yesterday, and I think this is a saying in AA? Progress not perfection. I find this little saying to be truthful and necessary in the life of an alcoholic or drug user. In life in general. I am not trying to be perfect but I am trying to make headway on an issue that has threatened to destroy my health and character.

As for prayer, it is not for everyone. Some people like to meditate and this is a form of prayer. Some people do not believe in either and who is to say that it is wrong? We all get to choose our road. That is the beauty of it all. Your choices are what will define your sobriety.

You should and can work at your own pace towards your own sobriety. This is your path and no one can dictate how you choose to live. The truth for me is that there are many truths in AA, SR, AVRT, SMART so on and so forth. There are pieces here and there and I pick them up, put them in my pocket, and use them when I need too.

I hope you find some peace within yourself and learn to know that you have the power to change your life. You are doing it right now. You can be sober with or without AA. With or without prayer. With or without SR. Just find what works for you and roll with it. Take it on fully and make it work.

sobermax

Hello ZB,

I had precisely your reservations and in the end AVRT was my way forward. Like a grumpy child, I hate being told what to do and the 'this is entirely up to you' ethos of AVRT really clicked with me, although you have to pick your way through the anti-AA rhetoric in the literature!

I felt a bit resentful when I stopped going to meetings (was still drinking!) but in retrospect I learned a lot from them and am glad I went.

My own view - if someone really wants to be sober and is willing to work at it every day, the choice of program is secondary. I have noticed though that most people with significant sobertime do seem to have a daily program of some sort, be it AA, AVRT, SMART or one they made up themselves.

Good luck!

Max