Collecting thoughts after ex tried to drive drunk with child

Old 05-11-2017, 06:58 AM
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Collecting thoughts after ex tried to drive drunk with child

Hi all,

I'm trying to collect the strands of thoughts that have been going through my head since last week, when ex attempted to take daughter from after-school program while very drunk (staff and other parents stopped him, police were called, I came and got daughter, daughter is now with me). The thing that I worried about the most (ex endangering daughter by drinking while she was in his care) has happened and now I have to move forward to keep her safe. Here are some of the feelings I'm grappling with, if anyone has any insights, I would welcome them.

1. GUILT. He was staggering and slurring his words according to parents, staff and police. He drove to the school. If they hadn't stopped him, he was going to drive Kid back to his place through heavy rush-hour traffic. That's how people die.

He was picking Kid up because I was trying to make shared parenting work and we had agreed she'd spend the evening with him. He swore up and down that he'd been abstinent since February and I believed him. I also believed that he loved Kid enough to keep her safe. I feel like I risked her life because I was dumb enough to believe her father.

2. Needing to be strong to stay the course. It's clear to me that she can't stay with him again. I will probably need to go to court to give this legal weight. However, I also know that I am vulnerable to ex's minimizations, rationalization and emotional arguments ("you're trying to turn Kid against me, you can't destroy her relationship with me, you're making a big deal out of one slip, I only slipped because I was stressed and it won't happen again", etc etc).

I know intellectually that drunk driving with a kid is one of these things where you don't get a second chance, but my challenge is going to be to not listen to all the arguments ex will muster for why he should still have Kid staying at his place (including, I expect, "I bought her a puppy! She'll miss her puppy!").

3. How to talk to Kid about it. I am concerned that Kid could see how drunk her father was but got in the car with him anyway. She is 12 and pretty clued in about alcoholism, but didn't or couldn't refuse to go with a drunk driver. We had talked about an emergency "x-plan" for situations where she was uncomfortable, but she didn't use it - the police called me and that's how I knew what had happened.

How do I address this with Kid - that she doesn't have to do anything that someone who's been drinking tells her to do, that she has to put her safety first? I don't want to make her feel like it was her fault or interrogate her ("Why didn't you refuse when your dad told you it was time to go?") but I want to talk more with her about safety.

That's all I've got on my mind right now ...
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:44 AM
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Well, #1 & #2 are really the same thing - active & future guilt, right? FOG - any time I am acting from a place of Fear, Obligation or Guilt it is NOT a genuine, truthful interaction. I'm people pleasing, not focused on the next right thing.

Nothing helps here except practice - you have to get comfortable with "No" as a complete sentence and sitting with the discomfort of the guilt until it passes a few times. Truth is that no single method is going to remove your ability to feel FOG - it's up to you to recognize it happening & have a Plan B ready to go - "if he says/does *this* then I will respond with *that* & only *that*", etc. Eventually, this will start to feel more normal & you won't feel the tugs of guilt the way you do now.

#3 - You deal with it head-on as much as possible, involving a counselor or Alateen group if necessary/possible. This is NOT the time, IMO, to mislabel things or leave it up to her imagination to fill in the blanks. At 12 yrs old, she's already exposed to a lot of very real life stuff in middle school & while this is emotional & personal for her, you won't do her any services by sugar coating or pretending things are anything other than what they are. What happens when next time, it's not her dad picking her up drunk, but a friend or boyfriend? What do you want her to know in THAT moment? Start teaching her that now.

People had to trick him into not being able to drive away with your daughter. You have multiple, 3rd party witnesses & this is not something you orchestrated to trap him into acting badly. You have NOTHING to feel wrong about here, no matter how he tries to spin this!
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:47 AM
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I think she will learn by your example.

If you are waffling, how can you expect your daughter to be firm? Take your stand, protect her, tell her what you are doing to make sure it doesn't happen again.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
Well, #1 & #2 are really the same thing - active & future guilt, right? FOG - any time I am acting from a place of Fear, Obligation or Guilt it is NOT a genuine, truthful interaction. I'm people pleasing, not focused on the next right thing.

Nothing helps here except practice - you have to get comfortable with "No" as a complete sentence and sitting with the discomfort of the guilt until it passes a few times. Truth is that no single method is going to remove your ability to feel FOG - it's up to you to recognize it happening & have a Plan B ready to go - "if he says/does *this* then I will respond with *that* & only *that*", etc. Eventually, this will start to feel more normal & you won't feel the tugs of guilt the way you do now.

#3 - You deal with it head-on as much as possible, involving a counselor or Alateen group if necessary/possible. This is NOT the time, IMO, to mislabel things or leave it up to her imagination to fill in the blanks. At 12 yrs old, she's already exposed to a lot of very real life stuff in middle school & while this is emotional & personal for her, you won't do her any services by sugar coating or pretending things are anything other than what they are. What happens when next time, it's not her dad picking her up drunk, but a friend or boyfriend? What do you want her to know in THAT moment? Start teaching her that now.

People had to trick him into not being able to drive away with your daughter. You have multiple, 3rd party witnesses & this is not something you orchestrated to trap him into acting badly. You have NOTHING to feel wrong about here, no matter how he tries to spin this!
Thanks firesprite, very helpful. I like the idea that "No" is a complete sentence - my tendency is to try to explain, reason, etc.

I've found an Alateen group for Kid, and am looking for counselling for her. She was seeing a counsellor a while back, I'm hoping I can revive that.

You're right about straight talk. It's difficult because her father tells her I'm trying to turn her against him, trying to control her life, etc. But this is a situation he created, not me.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:12 AM
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I was trying to make shared parenting work
I tried to do that for way too long, partly because the court decided a few weeks of outpatient treatment and a little printed certificate meant my ex was cured and could have his visitation. There have been some terrific posts here about letting go of trying to make the alcoholic's relationship with the kids work. Hopeful4 had a good thread on it recently.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-epiphany.html

I know I did all of that stuff for way too long. Playing nice instead of limiting contact to the bare minimum required by the court order.


My challenge is going to be to not listen to all the arguments ex will muster for why he should still have Kid staying at his place (including, I expect, "I bought her a puppy! She'll miss her puppy!").
There's no need to listen to anything he says. Tell him to have his attorney contact your attorney and don't respond to anything directly from him. That was what finally ended my ex drunk dialing to "discuss" the custody case (ranting and making ridiculous threats and accusations until his wife took away the phone). You have all the leverage right now to protect your daughter. I wish I had struck while the iron was hot instead of messing around trying to make nice with someone who was incapable of taking our son's best interests into account in his decision-making (if you can call it that).
Sorry about the puppy. My ex could not take care of animals by himself, especially when he was drinking. His mom had to step in and do it. Maybe an anonymous call to your local humane society can get the puppy rescued and re-adopted. It wasn't possible where we were. There was one animal control officer for the entire county, so as long as an animal was registered and not dangerous, he couldn't do anything to intervene.

As far as talking to kids, I grew up in an alcoholic home having very poor/no boundaries in personal relationships, especially over things the alcoholic told me I had to do. You know that irrational guilt you feel over this situation? Your daughter feels it too, has grown up feeling bad for poor daddy, who's so nice sometimes, if only he wouldn't drink so much, so the thing that feels the least bad is to do whatever she has to do so he won't get angry or start the guilt trip manipulation.

I wish someone would have taken me to Alateen, or counseling, or at least told me that boundaries existed and that I was allowed to have them. I found recovery on my own, later in life, but not until after a lot of repeating those same kinds of bad choices I'd been making since was young.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by biminiblue View Post
I think she will learn by your example.
Fantastic point. I had to get humble & vulnerable & Real in order to lead DD through all this. I had to be able to own my missteps & real emotions in order to show her it was ok & necessary to feel her own.

I have read it over & over & over in psychology studies, you can tell a child 100,000 times to do something but in the end they will imitate what they see regardless of what they "know" they should do ~ almost across the board, 100% of the time. What they see us do & what they hear us say is what they will carry forward in their own world.

I've made sure DD (also 12 ) knows that no question is off limits & sometimes the answer really IS, "I don't know" because I'm learning & growing too. The most important thing for me is that she is comfortable talking real about it - even if she's more comfortable talking with another adult instead of me. It also helped DD to understand addiction as a Whole - not just about alcohol, but how we as people often struggle with all kinds of things..... drugs, sex, gambling, food, workaholism, etc.

my tendency is to try to explain, reason, etc.
Oh yes, I was an expert at JADEing. (Justify, Argue, Defend & Explain)...... that's another loop to watch out for & when you recognize it, take a purposeful step out of that pattern.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:22 AM
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This situation risked her life. Not her feelings, not his feelings, not material possessions....HER LIFE.

There is no discussion with him on that point. This is a black and white situation...there are no shades of gray here.

Your daughter will learn that there is nothing more important to you than her safety and that there are some things people can't minimize and apologize their way out of. Those are good lessons, yes?

Find your inner grizzly mama, because this guy could have hurt your baby and there is no minimizing that.

P.S. Oh, and he bought her a puppy? As a dog lover, that worries the hell out of me. Who's taking care of it?
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:22 AM
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Now is your chance. He risked her life. You have witnesses. The more time that passes, the harder it will be to put legal protections in place for your daughter.

Hugs.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:45 AM
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He shouldn't even have the puppy.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:54 AM
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Yah.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:15 AM
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Thanks everybody. I have an appointment on Tuesday with a lawyer from the top family law firm in the city (earliest app't I could get). It won't be cheap or easy, but it will happen.

I've been logging everything since ex really started going off the rails in February 2016. I have a single-spaced 35-page document detailing event by event, date by date, which could easily be turned into an affidavit.

I have requested the police report of the incident, followed up with child protective services, and have spoken to staff, parents and observers who would be willing to give statements.

I received a plan of action from ex in which he says he'll go to counselling, start going to AA, carry a breathalyzer, etc etc. But the same message also contains a long-winded justification as to why this is all his second ex-wife's fault (because the divorce is stressing him! And he can't sell the house!), and the words "I'm sorry" or "I take responsibility" are conspicuously lacking.

I did not respond to his message.

I have to keep reminding myself that there are some things that you don't get do-overs or second chances. I think about domestic violence - what I would do if a friend told me that their spouse broke their arm and asked whether they should give the spouse a second chance, because maybe it will just be bruises next time. I would say "hell no, violence is zero-tolerance, second chances are not one of the options". Endangering a child through drinking is like that too, even though he didn't deliberately intend to risk her life (and don't abusers say that too - "I didn't mean to hurt him/her, it wasn't my intent, it just happened"?).

I know I may be my own worst enemy here. I need to keep reminding myself that yes, it really is that bad, and yes, I am being absolutely reasonable and responsible in restricting his access to her. Giving up on the hope that she could have something like a normal relationship with her father despite his addiction is going to be hard.

And a big no to puppy-blackmail.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:38 AM
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I don't think it's necessary to "give up hope" she'll ever have a normal relationship with her dad, even if it's clearly not in the offing. I don't think it helps anyone to have the mindset that it's hopeless and she will have to stay away from him for the rest of her life, or even the rest of her childhood. Recovery can happen--it's just that you need to exercise extreme caution until he's proven himself reliable over the long term.

Hugs, hope the lawyer is able to help.
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:09 PM
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^^^ Good point. He is too sick (with addiction) to look after her properly now, but he may not be sick forever. The question then is how I would know when he's no longer too sick.
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:32 PM
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You can worry about crossing that bridge when you come to it (if ever). Right now he's still off the deep end.
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:40 AM
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A talk with your daughter is in order, not just about her dad. As she gets older, she may very well have peers that are drinking of compromised by drugs, and she shouldn't get into a car with them either. It's nice to not hurt people's feelings, but she has to understand that the only person who's always there to protect her is herself.
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Old 05-12-2017, 06:14 AM
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I have to agree with velma. My child is the same age. She has been educated on alcoholism, and what that means. You are right, her relationship with her father may not be "normal." Guess what, many relationships are not normal. Getting her a good counselor to help navigate these waters is the #1 most important thing you can do for her emotional well being. I cannot stress that enough. And research for a good counselor, not just anyone.

Hugs to you both. I agree, when a person has no accountability, they will repeat the behavior over and over b/c they see themselves as a victim. My XAH is a professional victim and has been his entire life LOL. The sooner one realizes it and can adjust your own mindset about him, the better off you will be. Your daughter will see this as well in time.

Hugs.
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Old 05-12-2017, 06:25 AM
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Thanks again. I've reconnected with the counsellor that my daughter saw for a short time when her father started going off the deep end. They had a very good rapport. Unfortunately she doesn't have any openings until the beginning of June, but I'm going to wait for that instead of trying to get her in sooner with someone she doesn't know.

I also do need to have a longer talk with her in the next couple of days - which will be challenging as she's one of those preteens who doesn't want to hear about anything awkward ever. I've spoken to the parent who alerted the staff when her father showed up drunk, and this parent says that her father was stumbling and staggering and unable to put a sentence together - in other words very visibly drunk.

So I need to reinforce to her that if someone who's drunk wants you to do something, you don't have to do that thing. She has tools for these situations, like the "x-plan" we worked out, but didn't use them. This makes me even more concerned for her spending time with him, because I'm not confident that she would extract herself from dangerous situations.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:16 AM
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My XAH tries to make my child feel very guilty when she does try to extract herself when he drinks. It's sad and horrible and a position she should not have to be in.

Hugs to you both.
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:33 AM
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I know I may be my own worst enemy here. I need to keep reminding myself that yes, it really is that bad, and yes, I am being absolutely reasonable and responsible in restricting his access to her.
In NY State, it's a felony to drive drunk with a minor. It's called Leandra's Law, named after Leandra Rosado, an 11 year old, who died after her friend's mother lost control of her car. There were six other children in the vehicle. They were going to the mother's house for a slumber party.

Apparently, the mother, just before the crash, asked the children "Who thinks we're gonna get in an accident?", and all the girls raised their hands.

When you think of that and the story of Diana Schuler, which also, unfortunately, started the momentum behind Leandra's Law, it's tragic that such a law has to exist.

I'm glad you're taking this seriously, for yourself and for your daughter.
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by hopeful4 View Post
My XAH tries to make my child feel very guilty when she does try to extract herself when he drinks. It's sad and horrible and a position she should not have to be in.

Hugs to you both.

Ugh. Maintaining the illusion that "everything is fine!" is more important than your child's well-being or safety.

Kid is very protective of her father, so I can also see her thinking "if I just get him out of here fast enough, maybe nobody will notice", without really having a grasp of how dangerous the situation is. This is not something a kid of her age should have to deal with.
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