Recovery knowledge - relapses and kindling...
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Join Date: Feb 2017
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Recovery knowledge - relapses and kindling...
I've scoured this site to find information on why when I relapsed or took time away (albeit very short instances, 5 or 10 days)...I was always surprised how hellish I felt than ever before, and the hangovers had now changed into withdrawals. My body wasn't trying to expel the alcohol, but moreso maintain until it was fed more.
The last six-eight months continued that way for me and I couldn't figure out why such the drastic change - physically, emotionally, or cognitively, but now realize I was in the process of kindling and pushing the limits further and further, thus terrible withdrawal symptoms. I can remember a few nights from around the holidays being shocked at the time frame it took me to finish 2 bottles, far too fast, in a few hours easy. And reaching for a follow up of Jameson if I could muster it.
I feel as its worthy of discussion more often here on SR as many that are starting in their path may not know that it's not a game that can be stopped and started over and over again. It's one of the many glaring indicators for me that I can't go back to that ever.
I could only find a handful of threads on it...it terrifies me, makes me scared of myself. No recent temptation, but it tells me I need to be ready with a plan and every ounce of my will if it shows up at my door.
Interested in hearing how others experienced it.
The last six-eight months continued that way for me and I couldn't figure out why such the drastic change - physically, emotionally, or cognitively, but now realize I was in the process of kindling and pushing the limits further and further, thus terrible withdrawal symptoms. I can remember a few nights from around the holidays being shocked at the time frame it took me to finish 2 bottles, far too fast, in a few hours easy. And reaching for a follow up of Jameson if I could muster it.
I feel as its worthy of discussion more often here on SR as many that are starting in their path may not know that it's not a game that can be stopped and started over and over again. It's one of the many glaring indicators for me that I can't go back to that ever.
I could only find a handful of threads on it...it terrifies me, makes me scared of myself. No recent temptation, but it tells me I need to be ready with a plan and every ounce of my will if it shows up at my door.
Interested in hearing how others experienced it.
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: MN
Posts: 8,704
The withdrawal process is one of the main reasons I quit drinking. I couldn't handle it any more. I only went through it a few times when I had a bender, but the irrational fear, impending doom and feeling like my heart was going to explode scared the crap out of me. I never want to experience that again. I also agree with you that once you cross that line into withdrawal, its game over. You'll never go back to a garden variety hangover.
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,649
Thanks for your post halfalife because it's a very important warning. I too went through what you did and if I could have seen what was coming I would give back every drink I took in the 19 months of my relapse.
When everyone here talked about how you start right back where you left off when you pick back up again I was stupid and naive. I thought that meant that I would immediately begin being the person I was, blacking out all the time and it would happen right away. This didn't happen so I thought I had it made in the shade. What I didn't understand is it means the disrepair I have done to my body is still there. Yes, we heal, but the way our bodies process alcohol will never go back. THAT is the starting point. So it takes less time to get back to where you were and what you thought you knew about your body and alcohol are wrong. Dead wrong.
I had my share of binges in that 19 months. I got away with drinking 10 or 12 times and then a disaster would happen. But, I thought that wasn't bad (good old alcoholic brain thinking, keep the disasters limited and we are good to go!).
Then, what happened last year in May still has me reeling. I am now over what I can't change and have paid dearly, and still will pay dearly. I can no longer trust any amount of alcohol to pass over my lips ever. I am done.
On Mother's day last year I met a friend at a restaurant for a drink and to give her a book she wanted to borrow. If I have to drive I limit to 1 drink per hour. Never more than three if I'm out for three hours. If I go over I call a service or take a taxi, I DO NOT drive. On that day I was at the restaurant for two hours. I purchased and drank two drinks in that timeframe. My own stupidity, empty stomach and they were hard liquor drinks where I was a beer girl. Doesn't matter, the point being that two drinks under the circumstance never bothered me before. When I left the restaurant I was fine. I was driving along perfectly fine. Then, I remember bits and pieces but when I truly came to I was on a concrete slab in the detox unit of the county jail and there had been an accident. Thankfully, no one died. If you could see my mug shot I look like someone who had been on a binge for days. I had not had anything to drink for two weeks prior to this day. I am still totally taken back to how my body reacted to those drinks. It makes me cringe when someone asks for my story because I can see the smirk when I say I only had two drinks. I have no reason to lie and I tell this story because if it happened to me it can happen to you.
So now I get it. I will never take that chance again because I know that I can no longer count on what I know about myself and alcohol. All bets are off. I am done.
With that being said please realize that once you abstain and go back what you thought you knew is going to be different. That and it isn't going to end well.
Why take that chance?
When everyone here talked about how you start right back where you left off when you pick back up again I was stupid and naive. I thought that meant that I would immediately begin being the person I was, blacking out all the time and it would happen right away. This didn't happen so I thought I had it made in the shade. What I didn't understand is it means the disrepair I have done to my body is still there. Yes, we heal, but the way our bodies process alcohol will never go back. THAT is the starting point. So it takes less time to get back to where you were and what you thought you knew about your body and alcohol are wrong. Dead wrong.
I had my share of binges in that 19 months. I got away with drinking 10 or 12 times and then a disaster would happen. But, I thought that wasn't bad (good old alcoholic brain thinking, keep the disasters limited and we are good to go!).
Then, what happened last year in May still has me reeling. I am now over what I can't change and have paid dearly, and still will pay dearly. I can no longer trust any amount of alcohol to pass over my lips ever. I am done.
On Mother's day last year I met a friend at a restaurant for a drink and to give her a book she wanted to borrow. If I have to drive I limit to 1 drink per hour. Never more than three if I'm out for three hours. If I go over I call a service or take a taxi, I DO NOT drive. On that day I was at the restaurant for two hours. I purchased and drank two drinks in that timeframe. My own stupidity, empty stomach and they were hard liquor drinks where I was a beer girl. Doesn't matter, the point being that two drinks under the circumstance never bothered me before. When I left the restaurant I was fine. I was driving along perfectly fine. Then, I remember bits and pieces but when I truly came to I was on a concrete slab in the detox unit of the county jail and there had been an accident. Thankfully, no one died. If you could see my mug shot I look like someone who had been on a binge for days. I had not had anything to drink for two weeks prior to this day. I am still totally taken back to how my body reacted to those drinks. It makes me cringe when someone asks for my story because I can see the smirk when I say I only had two drinks. I have no reason to lie and I tell this story because if it happened to me it can happen to you.
So now I get it. I will never take that chance again because I know that I can no longer count on what I know about myself and alcohol. All bets are off. I am done.
With that being said please realize that once you abstain and go back what you thought you knew is going to be different. That and it isn't going to end well.
Why take that chance?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: AZ
Posts: 195
Yep, once it breaks, it stays broken... Withdrawal is terrifying to me too; never want to go through it again. I've never heard a scientific explanation for kindling but it most certainly exists. Anyone have one?
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Join Date: Aug 2003
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Here is a list of about 15 threads on kindling and there is lots of good information:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...archid=7620839
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...archid=7620839
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pacific Coast
Posts: 785
I agree, the progressive nature of alcohol addiction can't be stressed enough, and often isn't.
There have been some good threads on SR over the years on the progressive aspect as well as the phenomena of tolerance and kindling, but you're right, I think it's sometimes taken for granted or not fully understood.
Just so we're all on the same page, "kindling" is generally defined as withdrawal symptoms that become worse -- sometimes quite suddenly and dangerously -- with repeated detoxes. Not all alcohol addicts experience kindling, but anyone who does experience it is, by definition, addicted to alcohol.
Tolerance usually goes hand in hand with kindling. I noticed that as the amount of alcohol that I needed in order to achieve the same feeling of relaxation continued to increase, the withdrawal symptoms I would experience during periods of abstinence kept getting worse at about the same rate.
It's a progressive condition that can only be halted, never reversed.
There have been some good threads on SR over the years on the progressive aspect as well as the phenomena of tolerance and kindling, but you're right, I think it's sometimes taken for granted or not fully understood.
Just so we're all on the same page, "kindling" is generally defined as withdrawal symptoms that become worse -- sometimes quite suddenly and dangerously -- with repeated detoxes. Not all alcohol addicts experience kindling, but anyone who does experience it is, by definition, addicted to alcohol.
Tolerance usually goes hand in hand with kindling. I noticed that as the amount of alcohol that I needed in order to achieve the same feeling of relaxation continued to increase, the withdrawal symptoms I would experience during periods of abstinence kept getting worse at about the same rate.
It's a progressive condition that can only be halted, never reversed.
Now what?
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Oregon Coast
Posts: 100
I echo the sentiments above and will add that in the end, I felt like shi! the morning after just two glasses of wine. Back in the day when my drinking was at its peak, I was easily able to polish off four bottles of wine a day - every day.
Like every late stage alcoholic knows - I didn't pour myself a glass of wine for breakfast because I was craving alcohol at 9am. I did it because I was going through withdrawal and alcohol stopped it.
Talk about agony! I put myself through it countless times. I've lost count how many times I've had to go to the ER for it. It's brutal and it is terrifying. I've tried to describe the psychological and physical feelings of withdrawal to someone unfamiliar with it. I could only say that it's like my mind was being warped or stretched over an event horizon and sucked down the black hole. That's the image I get when trying to describe it.
Nothing good ever comes of picking up again after stopping. It continues to get worse and it can get sooooo much more worse. It's kind of shocking how terrible I could feel and still be here to write about it.
There really are no words - that I've been able to find - that accurately describe withdrawal.
Like every late stage alcoholic knows - I didn't pour myself a glass of wine for breakfast because I was craving alcohol at 9am. I did it because I was going through withdrawal and alcohol stopped it.
Talk about agony! I put myself through it countless times. I've lost count how many times I've had to go to the ER for it. It's brutal and it is terrifying. I've tried to describe the psychological and physical feelings of withdrawal to someone unfamiliar with it. I could only say that it's like my mind was being warped or stretched over an event horizon and sucked down the black hole. That's the image I get when trying to describe it.
Nothing good ever comes of picking up again after stopping. It continues to get worse and it can get sooooo much more worse. It's kind of shocking how terrible I could feel and still be here to write about it.
There really are no words - that I've been able to find - that accurately describe withdrawal.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pacific Coast
Posts: 785
Originally Posted by Zeebs 
Yep, once it breaks, it stays broken... Withdrawal is terrifying to me too; never want to go through it again. I've never heard a scientific explanation for kindling but it most certainly exists. Anyone have one?
https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publicati...22-1/25-34.pdf
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
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The best advice i can give is share my experience.
I detoxed many many many times without apparent ill effect - & so I pooh poohed the idea of detox being dangerous or of me being the kind of drinker who might run into trouble...
but my last detox nearly killed me.
D
I detoxed many many many times without apparent ill effect - & so I pooh poohed the idea of detox being dangerous or of me being the kind of drinker who might run into trouble...
but my last detox nearly killed me.
D
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
Here's a good article from the NIH about kindling.
https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publicati...22-1/25-34.pdf
Ha, cross post, Andante. It is a good link
https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publicati...22-1/25-34.pdf
Ha, cross post, Andante. It is a good link
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Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 104
I am terrified of it, had not heard of it until connecting on SR while building my 'defensive' reasoning against drinking again. It's definitely right there at the top...guaranteed my lethal levels had been close before.
There is a distinct shift between problem drinking stages during the first couple of years and when it develops progressively into full blown alcoholism. Drunk brain would have never considered the progressive nature and the change so alarming, but my sober exhausted terrified brain absolutely does get it.
Thanks for sharing all. **Anna, thanks for all the links to threads....glad to see its a recent discussion point often.
There is a distinct shift between problem drinking stages during the first couple of years and when it develops progressively into full blown alcoholism. Drunk brain would have never considered the progressive nature and the change so alarming, but my sober exhausted terrified brain absolutely does get it.
Thanks for sharing all. **Anna, thanks for all the links to threads....glad to see its a recent discussion point often.
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Join Date: Feb 2017
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Originally Posted by Dee74
The best advice i can give is share my experience.
I detoxed many many many times without apparent ill effect - & so I pooh poohed the idea of detox being dangerous or of me being the kind of drinker who might run into trouble...
but my last detox nearly killed me.
D
I detoxed many many many times without apparent ill effect - & so I pooh poohed the idea of detox being dangerous or of me being the kind of drinker who might run into trouble...
but my last detox nearly killed me.
D
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Originally Posted by Andante
Since the text of the NIAAA article makes for rather dense reading, I'm taking the liberty of posting a graph from the article which I think is worth a thousand words:
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pacific Coast
Posts: 785
halfalife, I read all the articles and saw all the graphs on the effects of alcoholism, including the one I posted, while I was still drinking. Did they terrify me? Yes. Did they make me stop drinking? No.
Ultimately, fear of the consequences of drinking didn't keep me sober in the long term. I had to genuinely want a sober life, and be willing to put the effort into building one.
I'm so glad I did
I agree, though, that there's no such thing as being too well-informed about what we're up against.
Ultimately, fear of the consequences of drinking didn't keep me sober in the long term. I had to genuinely want a sober life, and be willing to put the effort into building one.
I'm so glad I did
I agree, though, that there's no such thing as being too well-informed about what we're up against.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527
With that being said please realize that once you abstain and go back what you thought you knew is going to be different. That and it isn't going to end well.
Why take that chance?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by thomas11
The withdrawal process is one of the main reasons I quit drinking. I couldn't handle it any more. I only went through it a few times when I had a bender, but the irrational fear, impending doom and feeling like my heart was going to explode scared the crap out of me. I never want to experience that again. I also agree with you that once you cross that line into withdrawal, its game over. You'll never go back to a garden variety hangover.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by Andante
I agree, the progressive nature of alcohol addiction can't be stressed enough, and often isn't.
There have been some good threads on SR over the years on the progressive aspect as well as the phenomena of tolerance and kindling, but you're right, I think it's sometimes taken for granted or not fully understood.
Just so we're all on the same page, "kindling" is generally defined as withdrawal symptoms that become worse -- sometimes quite suddenly and dangerously -- with repeated detoxes. Not all alcohol addicts experience kindling, but anyone who does experience it is, by definition, addicted to alcohol.
Tolerance usually goes hand in hand with kindling. I noticed that as the amount of alcohol that I needed in order to achieve the same feeling of relaxation continued to increase, the withdrawal symptoms I would experience during periods of abstinence kept getting worse at about the same rate.
It's a progressive condition that can only be halted, never reversed.
There have been some good threads on SR over the years on the progressive aspect as well as the phenomena of tolerance and kindling, but you're right, I think it's sometimes taken for granted or not fully understood.
Just so we're all on the same page, "kindling" is generally defined as withdrawal symptoms that become worse -- sometimes quite suddenly and dangerously -- with repeated detoxes. Not all alcohol addicts experience kindling, but anyone who does experience it is, by definition, addicted to alcohol.
Tolerance usually goes hand in hand with kindling. I noticed that as the amount of alcohol that I needed in order to achieve the same feeling of relaxation continued to increase, the withdrawal symptoms I would experience during periods of abstinence kept getting worse at about the same rate.
It's a progressive condition that can only be halted, never reversed.
All is Change
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,282
One thing I've learnt about myself is that I'm stupid. It takes a lot for me to learn anything that I don't want to learn. I don't know anything about kindling. I seem to have a mental block to a lot of things. I like to figure things out for myself.
The way it was for me.
I was always chasing that sweet spot when all the tension in my gut melted away. The time I spent in that place became shorter till it would just whizz by and I'd black out, coming to some time later to start the chase again.
The scavenging for money to buy crappier and crappier booze. Pissing people off so I could drink in peace. The falls during blackouts. I hardly noticed hangovers. My whole life was a nonstop hangover. I'd gotten the withdrawal treatment down pat too. I'd learnt a lot of stuff re boozing but not much about living. Then, on a dark and stormy night... and so on. ... Here I am today, sober for 4730 days of the last 4732 days. The knot is gone. Somehow I got something right and I still don't get kindlings, steps and a whole lot of other stuff. Be Happy.
The way it was for me.
I was always chasing that sweet spot when all the tension in my gut melted away. The time I spent in that place became shorter till it would just whizz by and I'd black out, coming to some time later to start the chase again.
The scavenging for money to buy crappier and crappier booze. Pissing people off so I could drink in peace. The falls during blackouts. I hardly noticed hangovers. My whole life was a nonstop hangover. I'd gotten the withdrawal treatment down pat too. I'd learnt a lot of stuff re boozing but not much about living. Then, on a dark and stormy night... and so on. ... Here I am today, sober for 4730 days of the last 4732 days. The knot is gone. Somehow I got something right and I still don't get kindlings, steps and a whole lot of other stuff. Be Happy.
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maine
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Originally Posted by Andante
Since the text of the NIAAA article makes for rather dense reading, I'm taking the liberty of posting a graph from the article which I think is worth a thousand words:
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