Judgment
p***enger
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Judgment
I always thought it wasn't my place to judge others. "Judge not lest ye be judged." Suddenly I realized that's a judgment in itself. A decision to tolerate, maybe nudge someone to change, but not condemn them. I always thought, "If they don't change, someone else is going to draw the line on that person down the road. I don't have to be the one."
Maybe that's passing the buck?
Most of us have times when we're forced to judge. When I ran a small school for troubled adolescents, on rare occasions I had to call the police on people who harmed others. In retrospect, maybe I should have banned those people from the campus *before* they did harm, but I made a judgment not to. I like to think the occasions when I did that were rare because my school was trusted as a safe place, even for people who were out of normal bounds.
How do you know? Especially if you're in a position where your judgment will have consequences possibly harmful to the one you judge, and instead you might have helped that person? What if their harm amounts really, only to a drain on your own resources and emotions? In AA meetings I attended, we used to escort people out of meetings only if they aggressively & repeatedly disrupted the process.
Maybe this is a co-dependent's question. Yet I think:
Maybe that's passing the buck?
Most of us have times when we're forced to judge. When I ran a small school for troubled adolescents, on rare occasions I had to call the police on people who harmed others. In retrospect, maybe I should have banned those people from the campus *before* they did harm, but I made a judgment not to. I like to think the occasions when I did that were rare because my school was trusted as a safe place, even for people who were out of normal bounds.
How do you know? Especially if you're in a position where your judgment will have consequences possibly harmful to the one you judge, and instead you might have helped that person? What if their harm amounts really, only to a drain on your own resources and emotions? In AA meetings I attended, we used to escort people out of meetings only if they aggressively & repeatedly disrupted the process.
Maybe this is a co-dependent's question. Yet I think:
The quality of mercy is not strained;
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
‘T is mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
‘T is mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown
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Judgement has such a broad meaning. The drink driver has their judgement impaired in two ways, in respect to driving skills and the fact of driving while drunk.
We often have to make judgements about things, food we like, refereeing a sport, about who we will associate with, which school will be best etc.
I think the judgment that we ought to avoid is the crime/punishment model, or sin and punishment. We could judge someone guilty or not worthy, and condemn them out of hand. There is no justice or compassion in that.
We often have to make judgements about things, food we like, refereeing a sport, about who we will associate with, which school will be best etc.
I think the judgment that we ought to avoid is the crime/punishment model, or sin and punishment. We could judge someone guilty or not worthy, and condemn them out of hand. There is no justice or compassion in that.
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C2 -In my mind I most likely judge everything under the sun that has a pulse. Even rocks offend me sometimes. What I think and how I behave are of course sometimes different. Our PM seems so up himself sometimes I cope with the political dribble (see- a judgement right there) by imagining something absurd (but safe) happening to him. I TRY to ask myself before acting- 'what would be the outcome if I did/did not act on this?'. Say reporting another recovering client who is in the progam I am in to staff because of a marked change in behaviour. If that person is unsafe to me, others or themselves- or perhaps going to do something risky, I always will. I also try to ask myself 'what is it about this person that causes me to think this way?' If my 'gut' feeling and thinking are congruent, in the long run, it is usually a good call.
I think you have the whole thing sussed really well. PJ
I think you have the whole thing sussed really well. PJ
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I personally think mental, internal judgment is not a problem at all. Instead, it is essential for us to navigate the myriad elements of the world, ourselves, and how all this works. Careful consideration and looking at things from different angles is of course often preferable over jumping to quick conclusions, but the ability to make fast judgments and decisions is also crucial for many aspects of even basic survival. Plus, I think that intuitive judgment (making conclusions without direct, ongoing experience) is also important and not to be rejected - we cannot try out everything first hand and it's better not to, right? 
In terms of communication, I think it's more when it is a good time/context to express ourselves and how opinions and suggestions are presented to others that can make a big difference.
In terms of communication, I think it's more when it is a good time/context to express ourselves and how opinions and suggestions are presented to others that can make a big difference.
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personally I believe in righteous judgement.
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
the scripture you refer to, courage is not forbidding judgment of any kind.
from bibleteaching.com
Matthew 7:1 says, “Do not judge so that you will not be judged.”
Jesus here is not forbidding judgment of any kind. His point is to show that some people judge from a self-righteous, condemning, and hypocritical stance. They point out slivers in the eyes of others not because they care but because they get some cheap thrill from faultfinding as if it makes them feel better about themselves. Some are so self-righteous that they are even blind to their own hypocrisy, being unable to see the log in their own eyes. Jesus is condemning self-righteousness, hypocrisy, and an inability to judge ourselves rightly, which we must do (1 Corinthians 11:29). In no way does Matthew 7:1 forbid discernment. In fact, later in Matthew 7 Christ explains that we can discern true believers from false teachers based upon their fruit. Christ’s intention is not to forbid judgment that evaluates between right and wrong, moral and immoral. What Jesus is saying is not to usurp the place of God, Who alone can cast into hell (Luke 12:5).
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
the scripture you refer to, courage is not forbidding judgment of any kind.
from bibleteaching.com
Matthew 7:1 says, “Do not judge so that you will not be judged.”
Jesus here is not forbidding judgment of any kind. His point is to show that some people judge from a self-righteous, condemning, and hypocritical stance. They point out slivers in the eyes of others not because they care but because they get some cheap thrill from faultfinding as if it makes them feel better about themselves. Some are so self-righteous that they are even blind to their own hypocrisy, being unable to see the log in their own eyes. Jesus is condemning self-righteousness, hypocrisy, and an inability to judge ourselves rightly, which we must do (1 Corinthians 11:29). In no way does Matthew 7:1 forbid discernment. In fact, later in Matthew 7 Christ explains that we can discern true believers from false teachers based upon their fruit. Christ’s intention is not to forbid judgment that evaluates between right and wrong, moral and immoral. What Jesus is saying is not to usurp the place of God, Who alone can cast into hell (Luke 12:5).
p***enger
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Thanks! Gives me food for thought. Internal judgment I'm not so concerned about. Internally I'm a wimp, and I know it. It takes a steamroller to offend me, because I'm both obtuse & self-blaming. I remember thinking I was offended by someone exactly once, and I don't remember who it was, so I obviously got over it.
But what about when your judgments have authority and have negative consequences to others? Are you supposed to tot up the good versus the bad? Where does your information to tally those weights even come from, and to whom do you compare the offensive?
tomsteve, you're surely right about the bible verse. But I don't think I'll ever feel confident that I've removed the beam from my own eye. Sometimes, I know, I have to act anyway.
That bothers me. Have you had to do that?
But what about when your judgments have authority and have negative consequences to others? Are you supposed to tot up the good versus the bad? Where does your information to tally those weights even come from, and to whom do you compare the offensive?
tomsteve, you're surely right about the bible verse. But I don't think I'll ever feel confident that I've removed the beam from my own eye. Sometimes, I know, I have to act anyway.
That bothers me. Have you had to do that?
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Yes. You're an aware and rational being; value judgments are natural and often wholesome and useful. As long as you keep sight of the fact that there's a plank in your own eye, you'll be within bounds. It is helpful to me to say (and mean), "There but for the grace of God go I."
In rendering judgment, we have to be keenly aware that if we were in those same circumstances with the same knowledge, we would behave in exactly the same way.
Just because we are at a better place in life, it does not make us innately superior to those who are not yet in the same place.
As TomSteve said, it's the self-righteousness we need to avoid.
In rendering judgment, we have to be keenly aware that if we were in those same circumstances with the same knowledge, we would behave in exactly the same way.
Just because we are at a better place in life, it does not make us innately superior to those who are not yet in the same place.
As TomSteve said, it's the self-righteousness we need to avoid.
p***enger
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Hmmm. I wish someone would give me a specific example. I once had to decide not to give any testimony in someone's defense, even though I was very fond of him and probably could have said something. And then when he went to prison, I refused to respond to his letters. He stabbed someone in the back in the course of a liquor store robbery. But that was easy, in a way, because all I had to do was do nothing.
I know the family and friends people learn how to draw a line. That's for personal protection, mostly, I think.
I've never even fired someone. I almost did a couple of weeks ago, but instead I negotiated an easing-out with dignity kind of thing. It will probably come back and bite me!
When is it right to sacrifice one person's welfare for the greater good? Someone said to me apropos of kicking kids out of school -- "if you want to send a message, use Western Union."
I know the family and friends people learn how to draw a line. That's for personal protection, mostly, I think.
I've never even fired someone. I almost did a couple of weeks ago, but instead I negotiated an easing-out with dignity kind of thing. It will probably come back and bite me!
When is it right to sacrifice one person's welfare for the greater good? Someone said to me apropos of kicking kids out of school -- "if you want to send a message, use Western Union."
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Deciding how to govern in a situation is different than the kind of judging that Jesus was talking about. If you can see clearly what is right and wrong, what is just and unjust, then you are free to act according to your ability.
If you are in a position of authority, it is your responsibility to make decisions for the common good.
I think you were absolutely right in not testifying on behalf of the guy who robbed the liquor store.
As far as the angst over firing someone and your decision not to be harsh, I believe that God places people where they are for a reason. It seems to me tat he selected you to be over that employee at this time. He knew your heart in the matter. If he had desired someone more harsh, he would have put him there instead.
Just my opinion!
If you are in a position of authority, it is your responsibility to make decisions for the common good.
I think you were absolutely right in not testifying on behalf of the guy who robbed the liquor store.
As far as the angst over firing someone and your decision not to be harsh, I believe that God places people where they are for a reason. It seems to me tat he selected you to be over that employee at this time. He knew your heart in the matter. If he had desired someone more harsh, he would have put him there instead.
Just my opinion!
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hmmm, very interesting questions being posed courage. I see no harm in judgement in and of itself. I can sit back a judge people until the cows come home and no one has to know. Its any action I may take based on those judgement that potentially have consequences. And knowing when that is appropriate is a damn good question. I tend to exercise extreme caution in that respect. In fact people tell me things I wish they wouldn't. I'd rather not know, but I seem to be a magnet for deep secrets. in reference to your running a school...in that case I would guess you have a professional obligation in some respects. I go by the old standard: "let sleeping dogs lie". I can judge, but I don't act on my judgement. I keep it to myself if that makes sense.
ps. I have a good friend (also owns a business in this town) who is doing absolutely everything wrong. Every time I talk to someone and his name comes up they tell me what a-hole he is along with other choice words. Do I have an obligation as a friend to tell him? I don't know, I probably should since he seems oblivious. But I don't. I figure he'll eventually figure it out himself.
ps. I have a good friend (also owns a business in this town) who is doing absolutely everything wrong. Every time I talk to someone and his name comes up they tell me what a-hole he is along with other choice words. Do I have an obligation as a friend to tell him? I don't know, I probably should since he seems oblivious. But I don't. I figure he'll eventually figure it out himself.
p***enger
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I wish I felt as much clarity as you do, Gilmer. But maybe it's easier to affirm other people's decisions than to make them yourself.
I've read the passages about righteous judgment. Fair enough. But I don't believe that I'm a vessel of God's will, and I'm afraid of the person who thinks he/she is.
I've read the passages about righteous judgment. Fair enough. But I don't believe that I'm a vessel of God's will, and I'm afraid of the person who thinks he/she is.
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good on ya for thinkin on this, courage.
HOWEVER
paralysis by analysis sucks.
honestly? I could offer some things, but reading what ya type, it reads like you already have the answers to your questions.
HOWEVER
paralysis by analysis sucks.
honestly? I could offer some things, but reading what ya type, it reads like you already have the answers to your questions.
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Originally Posted by courage2 
I wish I felt as much clarity as you do, Gilmer.
I'm afraid of the person who thinks he/she is.
p***enger
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Originally Posted by tomsteve
good on ya for thinkin on this, courage.
HOWEVER
paralysis by analysis sucks.
HOWEVER
paralysis by analysis sucks.
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there is a difference between judging someone vs using judgment to make a decision about how to proceed in a situation which involves that person.
you could, in your role as school administrator, decide to ban a certain student without personally judging him as "bad" or any other personal condemnation, no?
I've not got clarity on this for myself entirely, courage2.
you could, in your role as school administrator, decide to ban a certain student without personally judging him as "bad" or any other personal condemnation, no?
I've not got clarity on this for myself entirely, courage2.
p***enger
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Originally Posted by fini
decide to ban a certain student without personally judging him as "bad" or any other personal condemnation, no?
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Like I said in my first post here, I think that often the way criticism/judgment is presented can make all the difference on the receiver's end. I need to do a lot of formal "judgment" (reviewing others' work etc) and also just being in charge of a team involves having to give feedback, both on the actual work done and overall progress when I supervise people. I am sure you are familiar with these, courage. Trying to provide constructive criticism is a form of art IMO, interesting challenge, and one of the elements of my profession that I actually enjoy best and I don't think that I often hurt people unless I am in a not-so-good place myself mentally and project that onto others.
Two things I like to apply when providing criticism to others:
1. Offer alternative ideas and solutions. I generally think a critique that only judges but does not suggest anything for how to do things differently and make potential improvements is an unhelpful critique and one that will most likely trigger hurt and resentments and induce avoidance in the other person.
2. If there are trouble spots in someone's attitude, approach to work, performance etc and I need to mention these, I like to bring up similar and relevant examples from my own life. Ex: my own tendency for fluctuating motivation and performance, why I think it's that way, and what kinds of "tricks" I have learned over time to deal with it and to make it less disruptive. I don't feel that I need to present a flawless image because I am in a position of authority, most intelligent people would not buy that anyway. So this way people will relate, won't feel so attacked, and are less likely to refuse cooperation driven by being hurt.
Of course there are cases where no amount of relating and patience will lead to progress and change, I think in that case being firm, straightforward and direct can be the best next step. Remind people that the relationship is a two-way construct where both parties have responsibilities and thing to contribute. Yes, finally having to let someone go is tough and I also hate doing that. But I sometimes found that when things get to that point, it is actually in the person's best interest to get the push, when they are seriously on a wrong track for them or stuck without relief. I think this is true for all kinds of relationships, both professional and personal. Yes people get hurt, but there is no way to go through life without being hurt, sometimes seriously. By chronically avoiding conflict and criticism, I think we mostly just cultivate the same fears and behaviors and will not face trouble spots in constructive ways.
Two things I like to apply when providing criticism to others:
1. Offer alternative ideas and solutions. I generally think a critique that only judges but does not suggest anything for how to do things differently and make potential improvements is an unhelpful critique and one that will most likely trigger hurt and resentments and induce avoidance in the other person.
2. If there are trouble spots in someone's attitude, approach to work, performance etc and I need to mention these, I like to bring up similar and relevant examples from my own life. Ex: my own tendency for fluctuating motivation and performance, why I think it's that way, and what kinds of "tricks" I have learned over time to deal with it and to make it less disruptive. I don't feel that I need to present a flawless image because I am in a position of authority, most intelligent people would not buy that anyway. So this way people will relate, won't feel so attacked, and are less likely to refuse cooperation driven by being hurt.
Of course there are cases where no amount of relating and patience will lead to progress and change, I think in that case being firm, straightforward and direct can be the best next step. Remind people that the relationship is a two-way construct where both parties have responsibilities and thing to contribute. Yes, finally having to let someone go is tough and I also hate doing that. But I sometimes found that when things get to that point, it is actually in the person's best interest to get the push, when they are seriously on a wrong track for them or stuck without relief. I think this is true for all kinds of relationships, both professional and personal. Yes people get hurt, but there is no way to go through life without being hurt, sometimes seriously. By chronically avoiding conflict and criticism, I think we mostly just cultivate the same fears and behaviors and will not face trouble spots in constructive ways.
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Regarding the bigger construct or context, in a professional relationship I like to use the larger goals. Examples from the academic research environment I am in. A student who joins a program to eventually obtain a degree. There are requirements of the program and completing the degree and if those remain chronically unmet, it's unlikely that the person will get to the end of the program in a fair way and with useful training. Also, they commit to working on specific projects that will be the source of every evaluation. If they don't show interest, don't do the work or are very careless in how it is executed, it'll probably just lead to mutual frustration and waste of time, energy, resources etc. I think these things need to be discussed for the sake of everyone involved.
In a personal relationship, I will not tolerate someone's chronically taking advantage of me in manipulative ways or abusing me. If they attempt to do this repeatedly and despite multiple discussions and ongoing patience, if there is no perspective for change, if I can't make it happen and improve it, I think it's my own best interest to stop it and move on. Yes it may hurt them to be rejected or abandoned but there are circumstances where, if I don't do this, I'll be the one chronically hurt and dissatisfied.
What I wanted to do with these examples is to illustrate that I believe it's often a good idea to judge the larger construct and goals of a relationship rather than target a single participant alone. Including myself: if something is not working and there is little hope for change, perhaps I am not a suitable, compatible participant either.
In a personal relationship, I will not tolerate someone's chronically taking advantage of me in manipulative ways or abusing me. If they attempt to do this repeatedly and despite multiple discussions and ongoing patience, if there is no perspective for change, if I can't make it happen and improve it, I think it's my own best interest to stop it and move on. Yes it may hurt them to be rejected or abandoned but there are circumstances where, if I don't do this, I'll be the one chronically hurt and dissatisfied.
What I wanted to do with these examples is to illustrate that I believe it's often a good idea to judge the larger construct and goals of a relationship rather than target a single participant alone. Including myself: if something is not working and there is little hope for change, perhaps I am not a suitable, compatible participant either.
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