qtpi

Spoke with DD by phone today and I got angry over two things- she said You are a martyr. I said I am NOT a martyr. I am a strong mature intelligent woman who made a hard decision and what makes you think I a m a martyr- give me one example- she said a couple weeks ago I complained I hadn't heard from her in a while- I said - so what- so I wondered how you were doing - how does that make me a martyr? She said DS said I was a martyr- I said he hasn't spoken to me in 6 months- how can he somehow think I am a martyr? then she told me with you- its either my way or the highway. I said apparently not- because I stayed all those years bending over backwards trying to make the marriage work. She then said I don't want to talk about it anymore. I am very angry. Those two things are direct quotes from STBXAH- when I confronted him about drinking and asked him to stop- he called me a martyr and a victim and said, With you it's either my way or the highway. He is really good- I will give him that- very good at manipulation. I guess he has both kids on his side. I think if I say those statements came from STBXAH she will deny it. I feel like I just can't win.

PhoenixJ

You are angry. Are you drinking/what is it you want to do? Remember HALTS. Stay safe.

qtpi

No. I don't drink. But I don't like it when DD says things that are hurtful and that basically tells me she is listening to her father's manipulation. He is the martyr. Poor guy- I left him. and its his way or the highway- he kept right on drinking for many many years- and he said both things to me. What I would like to do is ask DD why she is echoing her father and his logic and manipulations. I would also like it if she doesn't say hurtful unfair things like this to me. She seems to want to hurt me- our conversations are difficult. I don't like the idea of cutting her off- at least I have one of my 2 kids talking to me. But I am so done with anyone deliberately hurting me.

Mountainmanbob

Yes, we all seem to get into that position from time to time.

Part of life is learning to deal with it
and not let it spoil our serenity.

Talk about not winning -- I still make many mistakes
even at the age of 65 -- now that ain't easy on one.

M-Bob

dandylion

qtpi......I understand how much it hurts to have our children behave this way toward you.
Her words do sound mean-spirited, to me.....

I hope you will get yourself to an alanon or ACOA meeting.....
You need lots of support......

One day, I believe that they will turn around.....it might be a long time, though....but, one day, they will see him for what he is.....

She said "I don't want to talk about it"----that tellsme that she is confused, herself and can't face all the facts.(or the feelings that go with it)....

I think that you might protect yourself from their hurt, better, if you take the same position that we have to take with the alcoholics when they hurt us too much.....love them from a distance.
Let them come to you....don't go to them. don't even ask for them to call or anything like that.
Keep building your own life.
Above all---remember that you don't have to JADE---justify, argue, defend, or explain....if you don't want to. If they ever ask about the past in a compassionate, genuine way..that might be a different story. But, right now, it is probably just a way for them to shift blame onto you (carrying his water)....

I think you will need more support from others over the holiday seaso n......

I can remember my grandmother (and others) saying...."leave them alone, and, they will come home...wagging their tails behind them"....
Over the years, I have seen this to be true so many times!

LexieCat

Yes, they were hurtful words, and yes, they probably came from the ex.

But I agree with dandy--I think she is probably still sorting everything out. Next time she says something that hurts your feelings (and that you know is false), try saying something like, "I'm sorry you feel that way," or "I feel bad that you think that," and change the subject. Arguing doesn't help. The less power you give the words the sooner the sting will pass.

Hugs,

Praying

Hi-- I just wanted to share that a friend of mine who's been going through a very long divorce has been struggling so much with her son distancing himself from her and blaming her. I kept telling her to be patient and let time show the truth, but it's been so hard for her the last two years.

She called me yesterday in happy tears because he just told her he realized he was listening to his dad and brainwashed, and he knows she HAD to leave, and he thought she had a case for abuse given everything dad did to her...it all came pouring out through his new eyes...

Time will show truths. I very much believe that. I can't really imagine the pain you feel now, but I hope you hold on to that belief.

Hugs to you.

FireSprite

First, many ((((Hugs))))

It sounds like you are stuck in an very uncomfortable middle area in all of this. It's not quite 6 months since you left, right? And he's continued quacking whether he has gotten sober or not?

I asked you this in a prior thread but you never responded, so I'm going to quote myself instead of re-wording my thoughts:


(from this thread ---> ) http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...r-despair.html

(which got some incredible replies, btw)


I completely understand you feeling hurt but is it truly reasonable to expect them to understand what you both have successfully normalized/minimized over their entire lives? Are you being fair to them by expecting them not to question these huge changes when they've only been made aware of things about 6 months ago?

Again - I really AM saying this out of love & concern. If this type of thing plays any part in how you got to this point, accepting it will be critical to your healing on both sides.

SmallButMighty

*hugs qtpi*

I faced some backlash from my young adult children when they learned that I had broken up with their father. I too heard his words coming from their lips. It hurt, it hurt a lot. I was the bad guy because I had ended the relationship.. I heard from my kids, " You got what you wanted, now you have to live with it"... word for word, the exact same thing he said to me multiple times during our break up and separation.

A year later during a conversation with my daughter she fully admitted to having been regurgitating the things he had said. Because people had calmed down and cooler heads were in play, I was able to explain to her a whole lot of real life facts her father had neglected to share with her.... especially the part about how my rebuttal to those words were , " This is not what I want!!! I want a husband I can trust, I want a husband who respects me!".... nope he sure didn't admit that to either kid as he was telling them " She got what I wanted..."

My son is still a little off with me but we are able to have chats and say I love you etc. but he is far more comfortable with his Dad and dads gf then he is with me and my bf. I have moved far away from where they live so that hasn't helped my situation with my boy any either.

I think that because I spent so many years shielding them from their father's alcoholism and playing the good mommy who was holding the family unit together despite how it was destroying me, I set the stage for them to THINK I had ripped our family apart for "no good reason".. at least not one they could readily understand.

My daughter now understands and I have hope that when my son gets a little more life experience under his belt he will too.

I know your mama heart is hurt and angry... I've been there sister, and it sucks. But it is not a permanent state, this too shall pass. Keep taking those deep breaths and trusting in yourself and your decisions.

qtpi

I made a decision to stay based on the fact he would have gotten them every other weekend and 4 weeks out of the summer. I saw a counselor when they were teens and he thought there would be more damage if I didn't wait until they were out of the house. I built a nice life for myself and I nurtured a positive family experience. I am not saying this to JADE- it is just the decision I made and the actions I took. When DD was 16 he said to me- Dad has a serious drinking problem- What are you going to do about it? I said well I have 2 choices I can accept him as he is - or I can divorce him. Would you like me to divorce him? - very matter of fact- he said, no Mom, I don't want you to divorce him. And I said well I don't want to divorce him either. without going into details there were similar conversations with my daughter. How bad was it? Bad enough. But there were a lot of good times too. Believe me- it was confusing to me, so I guess it has to be confusing to them. As the years went on I got used to a drunk spouse and his occasional displays of verbal abuse, self-pity, being morose, and selfishness. Then he would be good for a while. This year- after DD had moved in to his own place, things escalated and became intolerable for me. And I wanted more out of life. The unhappy times in my life were when I was with STBXAH. The happiest times were when I was with close family and friends- and my work friends. I started to avoid being at home if I knew he would be there. I would even stay late at work to avoid seeing him at home.

So I am trying to decide what to do about DD- because t seems like we are at loggerheads again. I guess she doesn't want to lose me but she is angry at me for leaving and puts credence in what STBXAH is saying. The only people in my life now are people who treat me with love and kindness. I am hoping this is not just a blip on the screen of life. I am thinking this is what life is supposed to be like and I can look forward to life being like this because I will not tolerate abuse.

So the questions that run through my mind: Do I quit calling her? Do I not pick up the phone when she calls? Do I send a cute card once a month? Do I send a Christmas present? Do I send my son a Christmas present? Do I just let her go and let him go-- and then they think - well Mom left Dad. I guess she left me too.

And finally --- why should I put up with the crappy way she is treating me? Although growing up she saw being being treated like crap... and she asked me once why I put up with it.

SmallButMighty

When my daughter was being cruel to me, I avoided talking with her. I didn't message or reach out in any way. I was hurt and angry with her actions and words. I gave her, her space. She needed time to grieve, also to process and accept her new family dynamic.... and I needed to not suffer any more hurts from a "kid" who did NOT have all the facts. I didn't press her, I waited until she was ready to come back to me with a better attitude. The anger I was feeling made it a bit easier for me to give her that space.

Our month or two of radio silence did not stretch over any gift giving situations such as Xmas or Bdays so that issue never came up. If it had I would have still given gifts, and a card that simply said, "I love you"... and I would have left it at that.

Of course only you will know how to best deal with your own children.

Wishing you all peace and acceptance.

AnvilheadII

you may want to remember your DD and DS are now Adult Children of Alcoholics. they were raised in an alcoholic-centered environment. and NO ONE comes out of that experience unscathed.

i also think sometimes parental separation/divorce can be harder on older children than younger ones. i do know that time takes time and your children are entitled to feel what they feel, and respond to their world as they need to.

when we adopt a ME vs THEM attitude, we will always be at odds with something or someone. as long as you believe that your children have chosen a side and are in cahoots with him, then you will not be able to SEE them for who they are, only as part of the THEM. it's sad that the kids can't express frustration or thoughts that are not in line with yours without your anger.

qtpi

If she wants to express anger, DD can do it without calling me a martyr, or saying untrue and hurtful things just because that's what her father is saying.

dandylion

qtpi.....as I said in my other post to you....I suggest that you not reach out to them...as in texting, calling, etc. Leave it to them to do the initiating.
If she does call...I would answer the phone and take it by ear...if she is civil and non attacking...talk as usual...
If she starts accusing or blaming, etc.....say something like: "This discussion is off the board"....."If you ever want to hear what my experience has been, without taking sides, then I will be happy to talk to you about it---but, until then, I am not going to talk about it.....look at the time--I have to go now..goodbye" then hang up.

As for the holidays, birthdays, etc...I would send them gifts, by mail, as usual..along with cards, as you normally would.

She might go over the verbal line the first few times...because these are new boundaries for you....(she has been trained otherwise, for a long time)....she will
"forget" and/or test you out....
You must be persistent in enforcing your new boundaries. No point in getting into an argument with her or I n a shouting match. Stay calm, steady, but PERSISTANT. If you lose your temper---she "wins".....

This won't feel natural, at first...but, if you are resolved....she will have to be respectful in order to talk to you.....
***They know that you haven't gone away.

LexieCat

You're assuming that she has sufficient maturity and insight to recognize all the dynamics at play--both then and now. I think the point we are trying to make is that there was a lot of confusion all the way around while they were growing up and it messes with a person's head. Heck, WE often need help figuring that stuff out--it's not something that just comes naturally.

I'm very sorry for your hurt, which is real. But I'm not sure blaming them is entirely fair, either.

maia1234

Q,
I know you are hurt and everyone hurts, divorce sucks. Kids show their pain and strike out, which is very hurtful. It sounds like you have been dealing with it for a long time. You need to not engage when she is raging at you. If she starts, cut her off and say "Im going to go now" and say good by. She is entitled to her feelings but you don't have to hear them. Recommend a therapist to her. She has anger issues and might need some help also.

It's not easy, but all we can do is take care of ourselves the best we can. I do feel your kids will come around. My kids see every day what an addict their dad his. Selfish, narcissistic and everything else. My daughter said the other day she has no idea if she will even get a Christmas gift from her dad since he has no job or any money. She said maybe he could cut back on his weed so they get a gift. Ugh!!

I know you feel the pain right now, be patient. They are hurting and lashing out, they are still your kids. In time they will see who their dad truly is... an addict!! You have protected them from all his antics so they truly dont have any idea. My friend stay your path and it will all fall into place.

qtpi

Thank you for all your support and understanding. I am feeling less angry now and more "detached." For now I will just wait on her to call me and if DD goes off the rails at me, I will say something like I love you. Have to go now. Bye. I am upset with DD for echoing her Dad - but also I am disappointed that she gives his words credence.

She confronted me about STBXAH says you won't let him see the dogs. I suppose I said the wrong thing even though it's true- I said he is lying. I made arrangements with our vet that STBXAH could pick up the dogs there and drop them off- no charge- it is a mile from his house. He would not agree to that- he wanted me to bring the dogs to him- talk about your way or the highway!! - but I don't want to see him so I refused and offered to let DS bring them over but DS won't return my calls. My latest offer is he can have the dogs for six months. That was communicated to him 2 weeks ago and no response from STBXAH.

I guess what should I expect- lying is part of his disease of alcoholism. And I am thinking as long as DD is listening to STBXAH and finds him believable- things ain't going to be great between us because he is saying ugly things about me and I guess she believes him. I will just have to wait it out

LexieCat

All you have to say (if anything) is that her dad is misrepresenting the situation, but that your disagreements with him are not her concern so you aren't going to discuss it with her. Said in a calm tone of voice, it's simply stating a boundary.

qtpi

misrepresenting- i like that word better than lying! Thanks, LexieCat!