Alcoholism::Depression. Chicken::Egg.
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 216
Alcoholism::Depression. Chicken::Egg.
Don't read this. It's too long. Move on. 
I thought I'd check in since it's been a while. Find my old threads if you are new to my story. Hope everyone is well! I find this place is really great and especially was a great crutch/support system for the early days of my breakup -- As I have learned to move on, and the pain slowly fades, I do not spend as much time wanting to post, and lurk a lot less as well. Everyone is in my thoughts and I remain thankful for this place that provides so much support and information to friends and family stuggling with alcoholism.
I'm a bit of a different case -- While my relationship with my AGF was long term, the breakup was fast, civil, and my resolve to keep alcoholism out of my life remains strong, despite some occasional contact with her. So, no contact hasn't been necessary, and in a way, has oddly helped me work through this breakup. It's helped to reinforce the reasons that the break had to happen.
I wanted to post today because I reminded myself of something important after a long text conversation with her this week. While I do not want to allow alcoholism in my relationship any more, that does not mean I cannot still love, care for, and probably most accurately, have compassion for the situation that she is in.
Sometimes I think in the midst of all the pain it cuases us to be enmeshed in a relationship with someone having problems with alcohol, we forget compassion.
There's a lot of chicken::egg type talk regarding depression and alcoholism. Does the depression cause the alcoholism? Does the alcoholism cause the depression? They undoubtedly feed one another, and the bugger of it all is that the brain often seems to trick people with depression and alcoholism that there is no hope, or that alcohol is the cure for the depression, or that the depression was not a symptom of the alcohol, etc. It's a nasty thing that happens. And it's also a cycle that becomes tough to break until the person really wants it to break.
My ex has reached the point where she feels there is no hope. She admits that her life is miserable, and that she hates herself every day. She admits to drinking to cope with the depression. She feels there is no cure for the depression. Past medications never worked (though she never tried not drinking on them), she has suicidal thoughts, apparently attempted suicide in the past while we were together (not known to me), and generally feels that there is no medical or professional help to fix the problem. She has no recovery plan, no hope, no desire to change anything.
So, it's a terrible thing really. One disease (depression) feeding the other (alcoholism) resulting in an endless loop without hope in sight. I realize I didn't cause this, can't cure it, or control it, so all I do now is listen. When we were together, boy did I ever to try CONTROL it. And we see where that got us.
So really, everything said here is true. We can't do anything to help and it sucks because we love the person...we have that COMPASSION for them. Out of compassion is where our desire to fix, to control, to help, comes from. In realizing I can't do any of this, I have essentially had to just become a spectator to it all. And it's sad, but also reinforces the reasons that I could no longer have her in my life.
She never asks to come back. She admits to drinking and claims that her behavior is better now that she is alone -- And in a way I get that. Since she doesn't have anyone to answer to, the drinking no longer has to be an "event" or a game...She can just do it when she wants.
Relationships with her most recent drinking buddy seem strained, as with her mother who is the only family, so unfortunately her support system has dried up. Yet, somehow, rock bottom does not seem anywhere in sight. As you all say here, never deny someone their bottom - I now feel this is the only way she will determine seeking help and living a sober lifestyle which will be required.
She has not decided to seek any professional help or change anything -- Her solution is that she wants to pack up, leave town, quit her job, start completely over as a new person in a new place and feels that at that moment everything will get better - She will quit drinking, start life from day one again. That in order to stop drinking, she needs to move.
Now from my experience, and research, I have to be very skeptical about that, but I would never say otherwise - no longer my place to offer advice, judge, or try and influence. She wants to get married and perhaps even start a family (never on the table for us). And start fresh with a clean slate in a new state where no one knows her and she can just be a brand new person. The dry erase board solution. Wipe clean, start over.
If the depression came before the alcoholism, and is still there without the alcohol, she will need a clear head and a determination to deal with the depression. So, step one will be determining alcohol can no longer be a part of life -- At that point, I think she has a great chance at beating the depression, unless they both disappear together (the depression with the alcohol).
Me? I admit, myself, I would have loved for her to hit bottom and start the climb after we split up. At this point it sounds like things have stayed mostly the same for her so no progress on her front over the last 5 months. For me? I'm slowly, slowly getting better but the damage is defintiely there. I am busy with people all the time but still feel alone. I feel no interest in starting a new relationship or meeting someone. Part of it is probably gun shy over being burnt with this 10 year relationship, other part is just the notion of starting over fresh. If I am being honest, you put my ex 1 year sober next to a new girl, I would take my ex. Because I don't have any interest in a fresh start.
The other funny thing I have noticed happening is friends and family reactions to hearing about it. While it is not always cut and dry, the general reaction seems to be "Good riddance, glad you got rid of that terrible terrible alcoholic dragging down your life!". The general perception of people towards someone afflicted with alcoholism seems to be to reject them, push them away, run far away, and get them out of your life. It has to be one of the few afflictions/diseases where it seems to be almost politically correct and accepted to reject the person. Loving an alcoholic or depressive person and staying with them is frowned upon -- Leaving them is cheered. You leave someone who is in a car accident and loses a limb, you leave someone who gets cancer -- You are a monster. You leave an alcoholic or a depressive - You are a hero. Go figure, right?
The other annoying thing I hear from friends and family - Just "go get a new girl". Like you grab one off the shelf like a gallon of milk. Ironically, every one of these people are in long term relationships and stable. Easy for them to say. Try being in my shoes and see. It is not just "go get someone else" territory. Just doesn't work that way. Even if there are options...what if you don't even want to explore them?
There are always going to be variances. The big one with me was that I remained in limited contact with my ex girlfriend despite having absolutely no reason to. All text messages, no in person, no talking, and it's fine. I think the reason most people tell you to go no contact is that staying in contact either makes the separation harder on you, or it temps you to get back together, to forgive and forget. With me, none of that has changed. My line in the sand remains where it is.
So the summary of it all:
- She's still drinking, but "cut way back" and trying to keep it "just on the weekends" though the conversation was a Wednesday and she later said she drank "2 glasses" of wine that night and later got ill (a glass of wine for her is filled to the top).
- It made me sad to hear this, but also reminded me of why we could not be together. She actually said it pretty well - "I couldn't be what you needed me to be, and you couldn't be what I needed you to be." I actually like that. I couldn't accept her drinking problem for her, and she couldn't fix her drinking problem for me. It really becomes very simple when you think of it on that level.
- I remain having no interest in being in a relationship with her as a drinker. 10 years was enough to show me that despite missing her and us, the side of her that comes out when she drinks is not a side I can live with. When we broke up, I told myself, I have now spent the last day with "drunk X".
- Her revelations of feeling suicidal are troubling, and I told her it was serious business and that she should seek help for that...It's still all I can do but it is terrible to think that those type of thoughts come into her head. Even at its worst, life is precious, there is always tomororw, there is always hope. Her telling me she had suicide attempts while we were a couple is frightening. I know there is nothing I can do to help her with this, and at the same time I hate the fact that there is not anything I can do.
Life goes on for me. I am extremely busy, never bored, always something to do. I feel empty at times. I miss her at times. I daydream about that ideal perfect life. I know that it's not possible because she just can't break the pattern. I'm steadfast with my decision and I do not waver, though the daydream of a "sober us" still pops up in waking and dreaming hours from time to time. I suppose this is a normal progression.
Anyway, this is a bit scattered, super long as always - Please don't feel any responsibility to respond as I am doing well and just wanted mostly to journal and check in. I hope others may find this post informative, especially others going through this at various stages of the cycle.
It's okay to love them, to miss them, to feel compassion, and even to still have some element of them in your life if you can handle it like me. You just can't let your resolve weaken. Despite how rough it was, and can still get, there is one constant here that has never changed. I miss her, but I absolutely, 100%, do not miss the "drunk her" and I never will. Having that aspect out of my life, despite the other sacrifices, was necessary, as tough of a decision it has been.
I wish all of you friends and family going through this the best. By being here, by reading this and other stories, you are doing so much good for yourself.
Be well!
I thought I'd check in since it's been a while. Find my old threads if you are new to my story. Hope everyone is well! I find this place is really great and especially was a great crutch/support system for the early days of my breakup -- As I have learned to move on, and the pain slowly fades, I do not spend as much time wanting to post, and lurk a lot less as well. Everyone is in my thoughts and I remain thankful for this place that provides so much support and information to friends and family stuggling with alcoholism.
I'm a bit of a different case -- While my relationship with my AGF was long term, the breakup was fast, civil, and my resolve to keep alcoholism out of my life remains strong, despite some occasional contact with her. So, no contact hasn't been necessary, and in a way, has oddly helped me work through this breakup. It's helped to reinforce the reasons that the break had to happen.
I wanted to post today because I reminded myself of something important after a long text conversation with her this week. While I do not want to allow alcoholism in my relationship any more, that does not mean I cannot still love, care for, and probably most accurately, have compassion for the situation that she is in.
Sometimes I think in the midst of all the pain it cuases us to be enmeshed in a relationship with someone having problems with alcohol, we forget compassion.
There's a lot of chicken::egg type talk regarding depression and alcoholism. Does the depression cause the alcoholism? Does the alcoholism cause the depression? They undoubtedly feed one another, and the bugger of it all is that the brain often seems to trick people with depression and alcoholism that there is no hope, or that alcohol is the cure for the depression, or that the depression was not a symptom of the alcohol, etc. It's a nasty thing that happens. And it's also a cycle that becomes tough to break until the person really wants it to break.
My ex has reached the point where she feels there is no hope. She admits that her life is miserable, and that she hates herself every day. She admits to drinking to cope with the depression. She feels there is no cure for the depression. Past medications never worked (though she never tried not drinking on them), she has suicidal thoughts, apparently attempted suicide in the past while we were together (not known to me), and generally feels that there is no medical or professional help to fix the problem. She has no recovery plan, no hope, no desire to change anything.
So, it's a terrible thing really. One disease (depression) feeding the other (alcoholism) resulting in an endless loop without hope in sight. I realize I didn't cause this, can't cure it, or control it, so all I do now is listen. When we were together, boy did I ever to try CONTROL it. And we see where that got us.
So really, everything said here is true. We can't do anything to help and it sucks because we love the person...we have that COMPASSION for them. Out of compassion is where our desire to fix, to control, to help, comes from. In realizing I can't do any of this, I have essentially had to just become a spectator to it all. And it's sad, but also reinforces the reasons that I could no longer have her in my life.
She never asks to come back. She admits to drinking and claims that her behavior is better now that she is alone -- And in a way I get that. Since she doesn't have anyone to answer to, the drinking no longer has to be an "event" or a game...She can just do it when she wants.
Relationships with her most recent drinking buddy seem strained, as with her mother who is the only family, so unfortunately her support system has dried up. Yet, somehow, rock bottom does not seem anywhere in sight. As you all say here, never deny someone their bottom - I now feel this is the only way she will determine seeking help and living a sober lifestyle which will be required.
She has not decided to seek any professional help or change anything -- Her solution is that she wants to pack up, leave town, quit her job, start completely over as a new person in a new place and feels that at that moment everything will get better - She will quit drinking, start life from day one again. That in order to stop drinking, she needs to move.
Now from my experience, and research, I have to be very skeptical about that, but I would never say otherwise - no longer my place to offer advice, judge, or try and influence. She wants to get married and perhaps even start a family (never on the table for us). And start fresh with a clean slate in a new state where no one knows her and she can just be a brand new person. The dry erase board solution. Wipe clean, start over.
If the depression came before the alcoholism, and is still there without the alcohol, she will need a clear head and a determination to deal with the depression. So, step one will be determining alcohol can no longer be a part of life -- At that point, I think she has a great chance at beating the depression, unless they both disappear together (the depression with the alcohol).
Me? I admit, myself, I would have loved for her to hit bottom and start the climb after we split up. At this point it sounds like things have stayed mostly the same for her so no progress on her front over the last 5 months. For me? I'm slowly, slowly getting better but the damage is defintiely there. I am busy with people all the time but still feel alone. I feel no interest in starting a new relationship or meeting someone. Part of it is probably gun shy over being burnt with this 10 year relationship, other part is just the notion of starting over fresh. If I am being honest, you put my ex 1 year sober next to a new girl, I would take my ex. Because I don't have any interest in a fresh start.
The other funny thing I have noticed happening is friends and family reactions to hearing about it. While it is not always cut and dry, the general reaction seems to be "Good riddance, glad you got rid of that terrible terrible alcoholic dragging down your life!". The general perception of people towards someone afflicted with alcoholism seems to be to reject them, push them away, run far away, and get them out of your life. It has to be one of the few afflictions/diseases where it seems to be almost politically correct and accepted to reject the person. Loving an alcoholic or depressive person and staying with them is frowned upon -- Leaving them is cheered. You leave someone who is in a car accident and loses a limb, you leave someone who gets cancer -- You are a monster. You leave an alcoholic or a depressive - You are a hero. Go figure, right?
The other annoying thing I hear from friends and family - Just "go get a new girl". Like you grab one off the shelf like a gallon of milk. Ironically, every one of these people are in long term relationships and stable. Easy for them to say. Try being in my shoes and see. It is not just "go get someone else" territory. Just doesn't work that way. Even if there are options...what if you don't even want to explore them?
There are always going to be variances. The big one with me was that I remained in limited contact with my ex girlfriend despite having absolutely no reason to. All text messages, no in person, no talking, and it's fine. I think the reason most people tell you to go no contact is that staying in contact either makes the separation harder on you, or it temps you to get back together, to forgive and forget. With me, none of that has changed. My line in the sand remains where it is.
So the summary of it all:
- She's still drinking, but "cut way back" and trying to keep it "just on the weekends" though the conversation was a Wednesday and she later said she drank "2 glasses" of wine that night and later got ill (a glass of wine for her is filled to the top).
- It made me sad to hear this, but also reminded me of why we could not be together. She actually said it pretty well - "I couldn't be what you needed me to be, and you couldn't be what I needed you to be." I actually like that. I couldn't accept her drinking problem for her, and she couldn't fix her drinking problem for me. It really becomes very simple when you think of it on that level.
- I remain having no interest in being in a relationship with her as a drinker. 10 years was enough to show me that despite missing her and us, the side of her that comes out when she drinks is not a side I can live with. When we broke up, I told myself, I have now spent the last day with "drunk X".
- Her revelations of feeling suicidal are troubling, and I told her it was serious business and that she should seek help for that...It's still all I can do but it is terrible to think that those type of thoughts come into her head. Even at its worst, life is precious, there is always tomororw, there is always hope. Her telling me she had suicide attempts while we were a couple is frightening. I know there is nothing I can do to help her with this, and at the same time I hate the fact that there is not anything I can do.
Life goes on for me. I am extremely busy, never bored, always something to do. I feel empty at times. I miss her at times. I daydream about that ideal perfect life. I know that it's not possible because she just can't break the pattern. I'm steadfast with my decision and I do not waver, though the daydream of a "sober us" still pops up in waking and dreaming hours from time to time. I suppose this is a normal progression.
Anyway, this is a bit scattered, super long as always - Please don't feel any responsibility to respond as I am doing well and just wanted mostly to journal and check in. I hope others may find this post informative, especially others going through this at various stages of the cycle.
It's okay to love them, to miss them, to feel compassion, and even to still have some element of them in your life if you can handle it like me. You just can't let your resolve weaken. Despite how rough it was, and can still get, there is one constant here that has never changed. I miss her, but I absolutely, 100%, do not miss the "drunk her" and I never will. Having that aspect out of my life, despite the other sacrifices, was necessary, as tough of a decision it has been.
I wish all of you friends and family going through this the best. By being here, by reading this and other stories, you are doing so much good for yourself.
Be well!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by Wells 
Don't read this. It's too long. Move on.
I thought I'd check in since it's been a while. Find my old threads if you are new to my story. Hope everyone is well! I find this place is really great and especially was a great crutch/support system for the early days of my breakup -- As I have learned to move on, and the pain slowly fades, I do not spend as much time wanting to post, and lurk a lot less as well. Everyone is in my thoughts and I remain thankful for this place that provides so much support and information to friends and family stuggling with alcoholism.
I'm a bit of a different case -- While my relationship with my AGF was long term, the breakup was fast, civil, and my resolve to keep alcoholism out of my life remains strong, despite some occasional contact with her. So, no contact hasn't been necessary, and in a way, has oddly helped me work through this breakup. It's helped to reinforce the reasons that the break had to happen.
I wanted to post today because I reminded myself of something important after a long text conversation with her this week. While I do not want to allow alcoholism in my relationship any more, that does not mean I cannot still love, care for, and probably most accurately, have compassion for the situation that she is in.
Sometimes I think in the midst of all the pain it cuases us to be enmeshed in a relationship with someone having problems with alcohol, we forget compassion.
There's a lot of chicken::egg type talk regarding depression and alcoholism. Does the depression cause the alcoholism? Does the alcoholism cause the depression? They undoubtedly feed one another, and the bugger of it all is that the brain often seems to trick people with depression and alcoholism that there is no hope, or that alcohol is the cure for the depression, or that the depression was not a symptom of the alcohol, etc. It's a nasty thing that happens. And it's also a cycle that becomes tough to break until the person really wants it to break.
My ex has reached the point where she feels there is no hope. She admits that her life is miserable, and that she hates herself every day. She admits to drinking to cope with the depression. She feels there is no cure for the depression. Past medications never worked (though she never tried not drinking on them), she has suicidal thoughts, apparently attempted suicide in the past while we were together (not known to me), and generally feels that there is no medical or professional help to fix the problem. She has no recovery plan, no hope, no desire to change anything.
So, it's a terrible thing really. One disease (depression) feeding the other (alcoholism) resulting in an endless loop without hope in sight. I realize I didn't cause this, can't cure it, or control it, so all I do now is listen. When we were together, boy did I ever to try CONTROL it. And we see where that got us.
So really, everything said here is true. We can't do anything to help and it sucks because we love the person...we have that COMPASSION for them. Out of compassion is where our desire to fix, to control, to help, comes from. In realizing I can't do any of this, I have essentially had to just become a spectator to it all. And it's sad, but also reinforces the reasons that I could no longer have her in my life.
She never asks to come back. She admits to drinking and claims that her behavior is better now that she is alone -- And in a way I get that. Since she doesn't have anyone to answer to, the drinking no longer has to be an "event" or a game...She can just do it when she wants.
Relationships with her most recent drinking buddy seem strained, as with her mother who is the only family, so unfortunately her support system has dried up. Yet, somehow, rock bottom does not seem anywhere in sight. As you all say here, never deny someone their bottom - I now feel this is the only way she will determine seeking help and living a sober lifestyle which will be required.
She has not decided to seek any professional help or change anything -- Her solution is that she wants to pack up, leave town, quit her job, start completely over as a new person in a new place and feels that at that moment everything will get better - She will quit drinking, start life from day one again. That in order to stop drinking, she needs to move.
Now from my experience, and research, I have to be very skeptical about that, but I would never say otherwise - no longer my place to offer advice, judge, or try and influence. She wants to get married and perhaps even start a family (never on the table for us). And start fresh with a clean slate in a new state where no one knows her and she can just be a brand new person. The dry erase board solution. Wipe clean, start over.
If the depression came before the alcoholism, and is still there without the alcohol, she will need a clear head and a determination to deal with the depression. So, step one will be determining alcohol can no longer be a part of life -- At that point, I think she has a great chance at beating the depression, unless they both disappear together (the depression with the alcohol).
Me? I admit, myself, I would have loved for her to hit bottom and start the climb after we split up. At this point it sounds like things have stayed mostly the same for her so no progress on her front over the last 5 months. For me? I'm slowly, slowly getting better but the damage is defintiely there. I am busy with people all the time but still feel alone. I feel no interest in starting a new relationship or meeting someone. Part of it is probably gun shy over being burnt with this 10 year relationship, other part is just the notion of starting over fresh. If I am being honest, you put my ex 1 year sober next to a new girl, I would take my ex. Because I don't have any interest in a fresh start.
The other funny thing I have noticed happening is friends and family reactions to hearing about it. While it is not always cut and dry, the general reaction seems to be "Good riddance, glad you got rid of that terrible terrible alcoholic dragging down your life!". The general perception of people towards someone afflicted with alcoholism seems to be to reject them, push them away, run far away, and get them out of your life. It has to be one of the few afflictions/diseases where it seems to be almost politically correct and accepted to reject the person. Loving an alcoholic or depressive person and staying with them is frowned upon -- Leaving them is cheered. You leave someone who is in a car accident and loses a limb, you leave someone who gets cancer -- You are a monster. You leave an alcoholic or a depressive - You are a hero. Go figure, right?
The other annoying thing I hear from friends and family - Just "go get a new girl". Like you grab one off the shelf like a gallon of milk. Ironically, every one of these people are in long term relationships and stable. Easy for them to say. Try being in my shoes and see. It is not just "go get someone else" territory. Just doesn't work that way. Even if there are options...what if you don't even want to explore them?
There are always going to be variances. The big one with me was that I remained in limited contact with my ex girlfriend despite having absolutely no reason to. All text messages, no in person, no talking, and it's fine. I think the reason most people tell you to go no contact is that staying in contact either makes the separation harder on you, or it temps you to get back together, to forgive and forget. With me, none of that has changed. My line in the sand remains where it is.
So the summary of it all:
- She's still drinking, but "cut way back" and trying to keep it "just on the weekends" though the conversation was a Wednesday and she later said she drank "2 glasses" of wine that night and later got ill (a glass of wine for her is filled to the top).
- It made me sad to hear this, but also reminded me of why we could not be together. She actually said it pretty well - "I couldn't be what you needed me to be, and you couldn't be what I needed you to be." I actually like that. I couldn't accept her drinking problem for her, and she couldn't fix her drinking problem for me. It really becomes very simple when you think of it on that level.
- I remain having no interest in being in a relationship with her as a drinker. 10 years was enough to show me that despite missing her and us, the side of her that comes out when she drinks is not a side I can live with. When we broke up, I told myself, I have now spent the last day with "drunk X".
- Her revelations of feeling suicidal are troubling, and I told her it was serious business and that she should seek help for that...It's still all I can do but it is terrible to think that those type of thoughts come into her head. Even at its worst, life is precious, there is always tomororw, there is always hope. Her telling me she had suicide attempts while we were a couple is frightening. I know there is nothing I can do to help her with this, and at the same time I hate the fact that there is not anything I can do.
Life goes on for me. I am extremely busy, never bored, always something to do. I feel empty at times. I miss her at times. I daydream about that ideal perfect life. I know that it's not possible because she just can't break the pattern. I'm steadfast with my decision and I do not waver, though the daydream of a "sober us" still pops up in waking and dreaming hours from time to time. I suppose this is a normal progression.
Anyway, this is a bit scattered, super long as always - Please don't feel any responsibility to respond as I am doing well and just wanted mostly to journal and check in. I hope others may find this post informative, especially others going through this at various stages of the cycle.
It's okay to love them, to miss them, to feel compassion, and even to still have some element of them in your life if you can handle it like me. You just can't let your resolve weaken. Despite how rough it was, and can still get, there is one constant here that has never changed. I miss her, but I absolutely, 100%, do not miss the "drunk her" and I never will. Having that aspect out of my life, despite the other sacrifices, was necessary, as tough of a decision it has been.
I wish all of you friends and family going through this the best. By being here, by reading this and other stories, you are doing so much good for yourself.
Be well!
I thought I'd check in since it's been a while. Find my old threads if you are new to my story. Hope everyone is well! I find this place is really great and especially was a great crutch/support system for the early days of my breakup -- As I have learned to move on, and the pain slowly fades, I do not spend as much time wanting to post, and lurk a lot less as well. Everyone is in my thoughts and I remain thankful for this place that provides so much support and information to friends and family stuggling with alcoholism.
I'm a bit of a different case -- While my relationship with my AGF was long term, the breakup was fast, civil, and my resolve to keep alcoholism out of my life remains strong, despite some occasional contact with her. So, no contact hasn't been necessary, and in a way, has oddly helped me work through this breakup. It's helped to reinforce the reasons that the break had to happen.
I wanted to post today because I reminded myself of something important after a long text conversation with her this week. While I do not want to allow alcoholism in my relationship any more, that does not mean I cannot still love, care for, and probably most accurately, have compassion for the situation that she is in.
Sometimes I think in the midst of all the pain it cuases us to be enmeshed in a relationship with someone having problems with alcohol, we forget compassion.
There's a lot of chicken::egg type talk regarding depression and alcoholism. Does the depression cause the alcoholism? Does the alcoholism cause the depression? They undoubtedly feed one another, and the bugger of it all is that the brain often seems to trick people with depression and alcoholism that there is no hope, or that alcohol is the cure for the depression, or that the depression was not a symptom of the alcohol, etc. It's a nasty thing that happens. And it's also a cycle that becomes tough to break until the person really wants it to break.
My ex has reached the point where she feels there is no hope. She admits that her life is miserable, and that she hates herself every day. She admits to drinking to cope with the depression. She feels there is no cure for the depression. Past medications never worked (though she never tried not drinking on them), she has suicidal thoughts, apparently attempted suicide in the past while we were together (not known to me), and generally feels that there is no medical or professional help to fix the problem. She has no recovery plan, no hope, no desire to change anything.
So, it's a terrible thing really. One disease (depression) feeding the other (alcoholism) resulting in an endless loop without hope in sight. I realize I didn't cause this, can't cure it, or control it, so all I do now is listen. When we were together, boy did I ever to try CONTROL it. And we see where that got us.
So really, everything said here is true. We can't do anything to help and it sucks because we love the person...we have that COMPASSION for them. Out of compassion is where our desire to fix, to control, to help, comes from. In realizing I can't do any of this, I have essentially had to just become a spectator to it all. And it's sad, but also reinforces the reasons that I could no longer have her in my life.
She never asks to come back. She admits to drinking and claims that her behavior is better now that she is alone -- And in a way I get that. Since she doesn't have anyone to answer to, the drinking no longer has to be an "event" or a game...She can just do it when she wants.
Relationships with her most recent drinking buddy seem strained, as with her mother who is the only family, so unfortunately her support system has dried up. Yet, somehow, rock bottom does not seem anywhere in sight. As you all say here, never deny someone their bottom - I now feel this is the only way she will determine seeking help and living a sober lifestyle which will be required.
She has not decided to seek any professional help or change anything -- Her solution is that she wants to pack up, leave town, quit her job, start completely over as a new person in a new place and feels that at that moment everything will get better - She will quit drinking, start life from day one again. That in order to stop drinking, she needs to move.
Now from my experience, and research, I have to be very skeptical about that, but I would never say otherwise - no longer my place to offer advice, judge, or try and influence. She wants to get married and perhaps even start a family (never on the table for us). And start fresh with a clean slate in a new state where no one knows her and she can just be a brand new person. The dry erase board solution. Wipe clean, start over.
If the depression came before the alcoholism, and is still there without the alcohol, she will need a clear head and a determination to deal with the depression. So, step one will be determining alcohol can no longer be a part of life -- At that point, I think she has a great chance at beating the depression, unless they both disappear together (the depression with the alcohol).
Me? I admit, myself, I would have loved for her to hit bottom and start the climb after we split up. At this point it sounds like things have stayed mostly the same for her so no progress on her front over the last 5 months. For me? I'm slowly, slowly getting better but the damage is defintiely there. I am busy with people all the time but still feel alone. I feel no interest in starting a new relationship or meeting someone. Part of it is probably gun shy over being burnt with this 10 year relationship, other part is just the notion of starting over fresh. If I am being honest, you put my ex 1 year sober next to a new girl, I would take my ex. Because I don't have any interest in a fresh start.
The other funny thing I have noticed happening is friends and family reactions to hearing about it. While it is not always cut and dry, the general reaction seems to be "Good riddance, glad you got rid of that terrible terrible alcoholic dragging down your life!". The general perception of people towards someone afflicted with alcoholism seems to be to reject them, push them away, run far away, and get them out of your life. It has to be one of the few afflictions/diseases where it seems to be almost politically correct and accepted to reject the person. Loving an alcoholic or depressive person and staying with them is frowned upon -- Leaving them is cheered. You leave someone who is in a car accident and loses a limb, you leave someone who gets cancer -- You are a monster. You leave an alcoholic or a depressive - You are a hero. Go figure, right?
The other annoying thing I hear from friends and family - Just "go get a new girl". Like you grab one off the shelf like a gallon of milk. Ironically, every one of these people are in long term relationships and stable. Easy for them to say. Try being in my shoes and see. It is not just "go get someone else" territory. Just doesn't work that way. Even if there are options...what if you don't even want to explore them?
There are always going to be variances. The big one with me was that I remained in limited contact with my ex girlfriend despite having absolutely no reason to. All text messages, no in person, no talking, and it's fine. I think the reason most people tell you to go no contact is that staying in contact either makes the separation harder on you, or it temps you to get back together, to forgive and forget. With me, none of that has changed. My line in the sand remains where it is.
So the summary of it all:
- She's still drinking, but "cut way back" and trying to keep it "just on the weekends" though the conversation was a Wednesday and she later said she drank "2 glasses" of wine that night and later got ill (a glass of wine for her is filled to the top).
- It made me sad to hear this, but also reminded me of why we could not be together. She actually said it pretty well - "I couldn't be what you needed me to be, and you couldn't be what I needed you to be." I actually like that. I couldn't accept her drinking problem for her, and she couldn't fix her drinking problem for me. It really becomes very simple when you think of it on that level.
- I remain having no interest in being in a relationship with her as a drinker. 10 years was enough to show me that despite missing her and us, the side of her that comes out when she drinks is not a side I can live with. When we broke up, I told myself, I have now spent the last day with "drunk X".
- Her revelations of feeling suicidal are troubling, and I told her it was serious business and that she should seek help for that...It's still all I can do but it is terrible to think that those type of thoughts come into her head. Even at its worst, life is precious, there is always tomororw, there is always hope. Her telling me she had suicide attempts while we were a couple is frightening. I know there is nothing I can do to help her with this, and at the same time I hate the fact that there is not anything I can do.
Life goes on for me. I am extremely busy, never bored, always something to do. I feel empty at times. I miss her at times. I daydream about that ideal perfect life. I know that it's not possible because she just can't break the pattern. I'm steadfast with my decision and I do not waver, though the daydream of a "sober us" still pops up in waking and dreaming hours from time to time. I suppose this is a normal progression.
Anyway, this is a bit scattered, super long as always - Please don't feel any responsibility to respond as I am doing well and just wanted mostly to journal and check in. I hope others may find this post informative, especially others going through this at various stages of the cycle.
It's okay to love them, to miss them, to feel compassion, and even to still have some element of them in your life if you can handle it like me. You just can't let your resolve weaken. Despite how rough it was, and can still get, there is one constant here that has never changed. I miss her, but I absolutely, 100%, do not miss the "drunk her" and I never will. Having that aspect out of my life, despite the other sacrifices, was necessary, as tough of a decision it has been.
I wish all of you friends and family going through this the best. By being here, by reading this and other stories, you are doing so much good for yourself.
Be well!
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Thanks Wells. This was very thoughtful. It is a reminder for me to not be judgmental towards other codependents whether judging something as good or bad.
Also I'm a depressive and could see myself descending into alcoholism pretty easily. I have even drank when I'm going through a bad spell - irk. However for me the depression has been a constant whether I drink or not.
Also I'm a depressive and could see myself descending into alcoholism pretty easily. I have even drank when I'm going through a bad spell - irk. However for me the depression has been a constant whether I drink or not.
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Great to hear from you all!
Sam - Really happy the post hit you at the right time. I know that feeling. It's what makes this place pretty special.
Bekindalways - Sorry to hear of the struggle. I think everyone in the world has encountered the beast of depression at some time in their lives, whether they were able to put a term on it or not. I feel nothing but compassion for those who live with it on a regular basis. I can never understand what that must be like, so for my ex, I have to understand, she has a very steep hill to climb in order to get better. If I don't want a drink, I just don't have one. In our most recent text chat she mentioned wanting to stop, but the depression is a 1-2 punch. All that said, it's highly likely the alcohol is feeding the depression like gasoline on a fire, but part of the problem is that the alcohol is too tempting of a band-aid for a short-term fix to the depression when it gets heavy. It really makes it nasty. I don't have the solution, so I can only listen. Listening from afar (via a text message chat) is easy for me. Living with it under the same roof was just not something I could do. But realizing that was key, and it's what keeps me from going back.
And oh yeah, I can certainly say I have fallen into the trap of having a few drinks when I'm down -- The depression typically was doubled or tripled the next day as part of the hangover. A good lesson!
And finally dandylion, hi - So kind of you to remember how much I missed our dog! The dog has been sort of the common thread that we chat about from time to time. She knows I miss the dog and thinks the dog is not the same without me and wonders if I'd want to take the dog if she moved away. Of course I would, but I also know she loves the dog and I'd almost worry about her life without her. It really was her dog all along, though she became OUR dog as we raised her as a couple.
An odd aside here -- This may just be me projecting, but when we were together, when the wine came out, or the beer, the dog seemed to retreat into herself, or pout, or get really down. Like she somehow knew that the alcohol meant a bad night for her or for us as a couple. Or she'd gravitate more towards me. I am probably just imagining that though. Last night when the chat started, she said it was because the dog was depressed. When I found out she was drinking wine, I could not help but wonder, is the dog smart enough to know wine just makes mom different and therefore it makes the dog sad? It's probably nuts. End of aside.
I'd love to have a dog, but thank goodness I have not had one in the past 4-5 months. I have been busy or away most weekends. I have no family or friends nearby that would be able to tend to the dog in my absence, and I don't like kenneling a dog, so it would be tough for me. It's given me a lot of pause. I think I would be a great co-parent to a dog, but a terrible single dad. My close family and best friends are all 2-3 hours away from where I live. It would make it very tough on me being a single dog Dad. So it's got me thinking, what is best for me, AND for the dog. I haven't ruled it out, and I sorely miss the companionship of my buddy, but I also realized, it was easier because there was 2 of us raising her.
I also realized that now that she has the full weight of the dog on her hands, she probably feels the same way...but this is also good for her. Having a reason to get home and not pass out on the floor somewhere away from home because of the dog is at least a good motivator for her to be home more. At the end of our relationship, because she knew the dog had me, she could disappear for as long as she wanted to. Bad news.
All that said, if she truly didn't want the dog anymore, I'd take that pup back in a heartbeat!
Thanks for checking in everyone, wonderful to hear from you.
Sam - Really happy the post hit you at the right time. I know that feeling. It's what makes this place pretty special.
Bekindalways - Sorry to hear of the struggle. I think everyone in the world has encountered the beast of depression at some time in their lives, whether they were able to put a term on it or not. I feel nothing but compassion for those who live with it on a regular basis. I can never understand what that must be like, so for my ex, I have to understand, she has a very steep hill to climb in order to get better. If I don't want a drink, I just don't have one. In our most recent text chat she mentioned wanting to stop, but the depression is a 1-2 punch. All that said, it's highly likely the alcohol is feeding the depression like gasoline on a fire, but part of the problem is that the alcohol is too tempting of a band-aid for a short-term fix to the depression when it gets heavy. It really makes it nasty. I don't have the solution, so I can only listen. Listening from afar (via a text message chat) is easy for me. Living with it under the same roof was just not something I could do. But realizing that was key, and it's what keeps me from going back.
And oh yeah, I can certainly say I have fallen into the trap of having a few drinks when I'm down -- The depression typically was doubled or tripled the next day as part of the hangover. A good lesson!
And finally dandylion, hi - So kind of you to remember how much I missed our dog! The dog has been sort of the common thread that we chat about from time to time. She knows I miss the dog and thinks the dog is not the same without me and wonders if I'd want to take the dog if she moved away. Of course I would, but I also know she loves the dog and I'd almost worry about her life without her. It really was her dog all along, though she became OUR dog as we raised her as a couple.
An odd aside here -- This may just be me projecting, but when we were together, when the wine came out, or the beer, the dog seemed to retreat into herself, or pout, or get really down. Like she somehow knew that the alcohol meant a bad night for her or for us as a couple. Or she'd gravitate more towards me. I am probably just imagining that though. Last night when the chat started, she said it was because the dog was depressed. When I found out she was drinking wine, I could not help but wonder, is the dog smart enough to know wine just makes mom different and therefore it makes the dog sad? It's probably nuts. End of aside.
I'd love to have a dog, but thank goodness I have not had one in the past 4-5 months. I have been busy or away most weekends. I have no family or friends nearby that would be able to tend to the dog in my absence, and I don't like kenneling a dog, so it would be tough for me. It's given me a lot of pause. I think I would be a great co-parent to a dog, but a terrible single dad. My close family and best friends are all 2-3 hours away from where I live. It would make it very tough on me being a single dog Dad. So it's got me thinking, what is best for me, AND for the dog. I haven't ruled it out, and I sorely miss the companionship of my buddy, but I also realized, it was easier because there was 2 of us raising her.
I also realized that now that she has the full weight of the dog on her hands, she probably feels the same way...but this is also good for her. Having a reason to get home and not pass out on the floor somewhere away from home because of the dog is at least a good motivator for her to be home more. At the end of our relationship, because she knew the dog had me, she could disappear for as long as she wanted to. Bad news.
All that said, if she truly didn't want the dog anymore, I'd take that pup back in a heartbeat!
Thanks for checking in everyone, wonderful to hear from you.
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Wells, it's good to hear from you. I want to thank you for your post b/c in many ways it echoes my experiences w/XAH. He seems to share your A's feeling that "nothing works" (altho he has no formal diagnosis of anything, to my knowledge). I believe that it has been a relief for him to just be able to drink as he pleases, too, since we split. We also are in touch on a pretty regular basis, but like you, my line is rock solid (and truthfully, I don't think he wants to come back--as I said, I think things are much easier for him now).
What you said about compassion also rang true. I knew I was angry at my A, but I really had no idea just how much anger I was holding until I progressed enough in my recovery to begin to let it go, "begin" being the operative word...the process is like draining Lake Michigan via a soda straw. I started to be able to come from a place of compassion for XAH maybe 6 months ago, and my ability to do so consistently is slowly growing. I think the fact that the end of our marriage was extremely civil, again like your situation, is what made it possible for me to feel this. If it had been a knock-down, drag-out fight, if I'd lost my home, if I'd had a mountain of debt to pay, if there were kids and custody and child support involved, I don't know that I could feel like I do at this point.
Anyway, I'm very grateful that you took the time and effort to post this. It is NOT the typical post-A breakup situation, but to a great extent, it is very similar to where I find myself too. I appreciate your insights, and I'm glad you're doing well, Wells!
What you said about compassion also rang true. I knew I was angry at my A, but I really had no idea just how much anger I was holding until I progressed enough in my recovery to begin to let it go, "begin" being the operative word...the process is like draining Lake Michigan via a soda straw. I started to be able to come from a place of compassion for XAH maybe 6 months ago, and my ability to do so consistently is slowly growing. I think the fact that the end of our marriage was extremely civil, again like your situation, is what made it possible for me to feel this. If it had been a knock-down, drag-out fight, if I'd lost my home, if I'd had a mountain of debt to pay, if there were kids and custody and child support involved, I don't know that I could feel like I do at this point.
Anyway, I'm very grateful that you took the time and effort to post this. It is NOT the typical post-A breakup situation, but to a great extent, it is very similar to where I find myself too. I appreciate your insights, and I'm glad you're doing well, Wells!
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"If I am being honest, you put my ex 1 year sober next to a new girl, I would take my ex. Because I don't have any interest in a fresh start."
Completely agree. I feel in many ways that I didn't sign up for starting over, I signed up for a normal life with the person I love. And although I have well accepted that that isn't happening, moving on and starting over romantically doesn't sound appealing.
"The other funny thing I have noticed happening is friends and family reactions to hearing about it. While it is not always cut and dry, the general reaction seems to be "Good riddance, glad you got rid of that terrible terrible alcoholic dragging down your life!". The general perception of people towards someone afflicted with alcoholism seems to be to reject them, push them away, run far away, and get them out of your life. It has to be one of the few afflictions/diseases where it seems to be almost politically correct and accepted to reject the person. Loving an alcoholic or depressive person and staying with them is frowned upon -- Leaving them is cheered. You leave someone who is in a car accident and loses a limb, you leave someone who gets cancer -- You are a monster. You leave an alcoholic or a depressive - You are a hero. Go figure, right?"
Friends, co-workers, family, etc. could not be happier that I "ditched the dead weight" "You are so pretty, you are so great, isn't it wonderful that you finally left." My favorite response is to sit with those comments for about a minute before responding, look them in the eye and say calmly and directly, "Tell me more about what you think of my life choices, next we can talk about yours".😉
"It made me sad to hear this, but also reminded me of why we could not be together. She actually said it pretty well - "I couldn't be what you needed me to be, and you couldn't be what I needed you to be." I actually like that. I couldn't accept her drinking problem for her, and she couldn't fix her drinking problem for me. It really becomes very simple when you think of it on that level."
This last statement really hit home for me. While I identified with your entire post, this one piece is what has kept me up at night since April. He left me very suddenly after an especially bad binge/disappearance and truly never looked back in any real way. The only reasoning he gave was that he couldn't be what I needed. Which I understood, because what i need is someone who doesn't black out and forget our dinner plans and go dark on me for a weeks time or knock himself out on my wall heater. And he needs someone who doesn't love him enough to ask him to stop. But my ego has been spinning, "why don't you WANT me?! I gave you everything and YOURE the one who keeps messing up!". We love and miss each other like crazy, but that's simply not enough, and never will be, and that's ok.
Thank you so much for your honest, heartfelt post. It was exactly what I needed this evening.
Completely agree. I feel in many ways that I didn't sign up for starting over, I signed up for a normal life with the person I love. And although I have well accepted that that isn't happening, moving on and starting over romantically doesn't sound appealing.
"The other funny thing I have noticed happening is friends and family reactions to hearing about it. While it is not always cut and dry, the general reaction seems to be "Good riddance, glad you got rid of that terrible terrible alcoholic dragging down your life!". The general perception of people towards someone afflicted with alcoholism seems to be to reject them, push them away, run far away, and get them out of your life. It has to be one of the few afflictions/diseases where it seems to be almost politically correct and accepted to reject the person. Loving an alcoholic or depressive person and staying with them is frowned upon -- Leaving them is cheered. You leave someone who is in a car accident and loses a limb, you leave someone who gets cancer -- You are a monster. You leave an alcoholic or a depressive - You are a hero. Go figure, right?"
Friends, co-workers, family, etc. could not be happier that I "ditched the dead weight" "You are so pretty, you are so great, isn't it wonderful that you finally left." My favorite response is to sit with those comments for about a minute before responding, look them in the eye and say calmly and directly, "Tell me more about what you think of my life choices, next we can talk about yours".😉
"It made me sad to hear this, but also reminded me of why we could not be together. She actually said it pretty well - "I couldn't be what you needed me to be, and you couldn't be what I needed you to be." I actually like that. I couldn't accept her drinking problem for her, and she couldn't fix her drinking problem for me. It really becomes very simple when you think of it on that level."
This last statement really hit home for me. While I identified with your entire post, this one piece is what has kept me up at night since April. He left me very suddenly after an especially bad binge/disappearance and truly never looked back in any real way. The only reasoning he gave was that he couldn't be what I needed. Which I understood, because what i need is someone who doesn't black out and forget our dinner plans and go dark on me for a weeks time or knock himself out on my wall heater. And he needs someone who doesn't love him enough to ask him to stop. But my ego has been spinning, "why don't you WANT me?! I gave you everything and YOURE the one who keeps messing up!". We love and miss each other like crazy, but that's simply not enough, and never will be, and that's ok.
Thank you so much for your honest, heartfelt post. It was exactly what I needed this evening.
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Wells,
Glad to hear you are doing well.
I do have some concerns with your texting relationship. You no longer live together but you are there for her. She has someone that has her back. Most addicts will not hit their rock bottom till all doors have been closed and they truly feel the burn. I understand that you are not given her your advice but she knows you would be there for her if needed. Typical Codie behavior.
You are still emerged in her drama of drinking, per your texting. Having an addict admit her problems and finally doing something about it could be years and years apart. You dream and think about her, but you will not get back together. She has the best of both worlds. No one is watching her drinking. She has contact with the man who still loves her and will walk her through her depression times.
You have not felt comfortable to move on and date. Imo if you continue contact with her you will never mentally move forward to another relationship. I know you want to be there for her, but I think it is holding you back from finding a healthy loving relationship.
You have always said you couldn't go no contact with her, but I still see that you have not moved on.
Glad to hear you are doing well.
I do have some concerns with your texting relationship. You no longer live together but you are there for her. She has someone that has her back. Most addicts will not hit their rock bottom till all doors have been closed and they truly feel the burn. I understand that you are not given her your advice but she knows you would be there for her if needed. Typical Codie behavior.
You are still emerged in her drama of drinking, per your texting. Having an addict admit her problems and finally doing something about it could be years and years apart. You dream and think about her, but you will not get back together. She has the best of both worlds. No one is watching her drinking. She has contact with the man who still loves her and will walk her through her depression times.
You have not felt comfortable to move on and date. Imo if you continue contact with her you will never mentally move forward to another relationship. I know you want to be there for her, but I think it is holding you back from finding a healthy loving relationship.
You have always said you couldn't go no contact with her, but I still see that you have not moved on.
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Thanks for a great read Wells 
***
There's a lot of chicken::egg type talk regarding depression and alcoholism. Does the depression cause the alcoholism? Does the alcoholism cause the depression? They undoubtedly feed one another, and the bugger of it all is that the brain often seems to trick people with depression and alcoholism that there is no hope, or that alcohol is the cure for the depression, or that the depression was not a symptom of the alcohol, etc. It's a nasty thing that happens. And it's also a cycle that becomes tough to break until the person really wants it to break.
*********
I absolutely identify with this at the present time . Really appreciate your thoughts xx
***
There's a lot of chicken::egg type talk regarding depression and alcoholism. Does the depression cause the alcoholism? Does the alcoholism cause the depression? They undoubtedly feed one another, and the bugger of it all is that the brain often seems to trick people with depression and alcoholism that there is no hope, or that alcohol is the cure for the depression, or that the depression was not a symptom of the alcohol, etc. It's a nasty thing that happens. And it's also a cycle that becomes tough to break until the person really wants it to break.
*********
I absolutely identify with this at the present time . Really appreciate your thoughts xx
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Ah yes, compassion. In my 25 year of recovery I still deal with major depression but it's no excuse to drink. In fact I've read that the majority of alcoholics also have another mental illness, but it's still no reason to pick up a drink. What I've learned is I am responsible for what I do, think and say, that I always have a choice to drink or not drink today. Both alcoholics and codependents have buckets of denial and rationalization that keeps them stuck in self-destructive places. So when I hear compassion I also hear rationalization.
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Originally Posted by Wells
Sometimes I think in the midst of all the pain it cuases us to be enmeshed in a relationship with someone having problems with alcohol, we forget compassion.
There's a lot of chicken::egg type talk regarding depression and alcoholism. Does the depression cause the alcoholism? Does the alcoholism cause the depression? They undoubtedly feed one another, and the bugger of it all is that the brain often seems to trick people with depression and alcoholism that there is no hope, or that alcohol is the cure for the depression, or that the depression was not a symptom of the alcohol, etc. It's a nasty thing that happens. And it's also a cycle that becomes tough to break until the person really wants it to break.
There's a lot of chicken::egg type talk regarding depression and alcoholism. Does the depression cause the alcoholism? Does the alcoholism cause the depression? They undoubtedly feed one another, and the bugger of it all is that the brain often seems to trick people with depression and alcoholism that there is no hope, or that alcohol is the cure for the depression, or that the depression was not a symptom of the alcohol, etc. It's a nasty thing that happens. And it's also a cycle that becomes tough to break until the person really wants it to break.
Originally Posted by Wells
She has not decided to seek any professional help or change anything -- Her solution is that she wants to pack up, leave town, quit her job, start completely over as a new person in a new place and feels that at that moment everything will get better - She will quit drinking, start life from day one again. That in order to stop drinking, she needs to move.
Now from my experience, and research, I have to be very skeptical about that, but I would never say otherwise - no longer my place to offer advice, judge, or try and influence. She wants to get married and perhaps even start a family (never on the table for us). And start fresh with a clean slate in a new state where no one knows her and she can just be a brand new person. The dry erase board solution. Wipe clean, start over.
Now from my experience, and research, I have to be very skeptical about that, but I would never say otherwise - no longer my place to offer advice, judge, or try and influence. She wants to get married and perhaps even start a family (never on the table for us). And start fresh with a clean slate in a new state where no one knows her and she can just be a brand new person. The dry erase board solution. Wipe clean, start over.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post6198895
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Originally Posted by timetohealguy
My ex's doctor told me that depression cannot be treated while alcohol use continues. The doctor told me that the alcohol must be treated first, and only then can the depression be treated.
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That seems to make the most sense, finding a way to eliminate the alcohol from the equation and then see what's left before trying to treat the depression. I imagine the alcohol makes it next to impossible to someone who wants to be honest with their doctor about their depression. My ex went to a general practitioner for her depression (not a specialist) and never gave up drinking for more than a few days (and used the alcohol as a medication when the depression crept in, to change the narrative). So, she was self-medicating with the alcohol on top of whatever meds the doc was prescribing. It's no wonder that never worked.
The problem is that the spiral/loop whatever you call it is so profound, the depression gets worse, the alcohol provides the quick fix, the depression comes back stronger, lather, rinse, repeat. Like others have said, the person really has to want to get better really, really bad before they can.
I wonder how many more folks with clinical depression would respond better to treatment if they eliminate alcohol from their lives? I wonder how many clinically depressed people use drugs or alcohol? It's probably a crazy stat.
The problem is that the spiral/loop whatever you call it is so profound, the depression gets worse, the alcohol provides the quick fix, the depression comes back stronger, lather, rinse, repeat. Like others have said, the person really has to want to get better really, really bad before they can.
I wonder how many more folks with clinical depression would respond better to treatment if they eliminate alcohol from their lives? I wonder how many clinically depressed people use drugs or alcohol? It's probably a crazy stat.
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Timetohealguy - Sorry for what you are going through, I'll pop into your threads later on.
But wow, yes, very similar attitude you are seeing there from your AW that you mention there in that link. The dry drunk syndrome as they refer to it almost has a 100% success rate of leading the dry drunk back to the booze, because as everyone sees, no real work is being done. The patterns we see continue to amaze me the more I read about it. It's much easier to hit the reset button than it is to make amends or do any actual work. Why do any painful introspection or homework on yourself if you can just start over? Well, the problem as we know is that the folks who just "start over" just start the pattern over again.
I'm a little scared for my ex as I worry that she thinks moving to a new state, a new job, is all that you have to do to forget everything. Without any work done, the patterns will just repeat. In her mind it's too hard to stay here around people and places who know her past. Starting over with new everything means she can do it all right and no one has to know about the past. But what happens if the same patterns repeat themselves? And to hear that she wants to get married, and have children -- It doesn't make me sad for me, but it makes me worried for her a little bit -- She needs to be a lot healthier before she drags a husband or brings kids into this.
She has the perfect opportunity right now to get better. Stop drinking, set a recovery plan, get professional help, see a doctor who specializes in depression, and get her life back on track. From that point whether she stays in town, whether she moves across the country, changes jobs, starts a family...whatever she does, she will be in a much better state of mind and a better position to succeed in that. Unfortunately, simply running away and starting fresh doesn't have a great track record as a fix in this sort of scenario.
As you have wisely said TTHG, it is a form of ignorance and selfishness to essentially avoid the discomfort, avoid any sort of responsibility or blame, and just try to act like the last X years of alcohol abuse never happened. It also seems to be one of the main traits of a depressive alcoholic. No accountability. It's like already being in a 20 foot deep hole and then having someone start pouring in quicksand. Fuel to the fire.
Sorry you are going through it, I know how frustrating it can be to know the right steps but have no way to get through to someone you love.
But wow, yes, very similar attitude you are seeing there from your AW that you mention there in that link. The dry drunk syndrome as they refer to it almost has a 100% success rate of leading the dry drunk back to the booze, because as everyone sees, no real work is being done. The patterns we see continue to amaze me the more I read about it. It's much easier to hit the reset button than it is to make amends or do any actual work. Why do any painful introspection or homework on yourself if you can just start over? Well, the problem as we know is that the folks who just "start over" just start the pattern over again.
I'm a little scared for my ex as I worry that she thinks moving to a new state, a new job, is all that you have to do to forget everything. Without any work done, the patterns will just repeat. In her mind it's too hard to stay here around people and places who know her past. Starting over with new everything means she can do it all right and no one has to know about the past. But what happens if the same patterns repeat themselves? And to hear that she wants to get married, and have children -- It doesn't make me sad for me, but it makes me worried for her a little bit -- She needs to be a lot healthier before she drags a husband or brings kids into this.
She has the perfect opportunity right now to get better. Stop drinking, set a recovery plan, get professional help, see a doctor who specializes in depression, and get her life back on track. From that point whether she stays in town, whether she moves across the country, changes jobs, starts a family...whatever she does, she will be in a much better state of mind and a better position to succeed in that. Unfortunately, simply running away and starting fresh doesn't have a great track record as a fix in this sort of scenario.
As you have wisely said TTHG, it is a form of ignorance and selfishness to essentially avoid the discomfort, avoid any sort of responsibility or blame, and just try to act like the last X years of alcohol abuse never happened. It also seems to be one of the main traits of a depressive alcoholic. No accountability. It's like already being in a 20 foot deep hole and then having someone start pouring in quicksand. Fuel to the fire.
Sorry you are going through it, I know how frustrating it can be to know the right steps but have no way to get through to someone you love.
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 216
Maia I also wanted to thank you for your post and the concern. You raise some interesting points. I need to ask myself if there is anything that the occasional contact is doing to hinder my development or my progress in life.
At this point I don't see myself as waiting around for her to get better, or that her occasional contacts are holding me back in any way. It's not like I wait to hear from her, I have any expectations of her getting better, or that I have any consideration to just taking her back as-is. I know I can't do any of those things for my own good.
It is a shame that we sit here many months later, with nothing having changed for her, the misery of the split just pulling her back to the depression and the alcohol, where I'd hoped we may have seen a shift towards better choices. It is hard to not care about a person who was a part of your life for over 10 years. I understand that no contact is meant to allow us to care from afar, but no contact really was always more about YOU than them. Thankfully my spirits are generally good and I feel overall solid on my work and my life...if only I'd just had better luck in love.
All that said 10 years is a long relationship to get over, and most say it takes half the time to get over the person, but it's not that I am miserable, I am just somewhat damaged and ambivalent towards relationships now. Failing after 10 years of trying just sort of has me giving up on having a desire to start a new relationship. I realize this is an issue that I need to work on. But also realize there's no requirement to date anyone or be with anyone, just like my ex has no requirement to change her lifestyle one bit either. As much as she seems to want to drink, I seem to have no interest in dating. It's weird. Hard to explain, other than likely, I just feel "taken by me" and that life, while lonely at times, is never boring. My list of things to do never ends.
At this point I don't see myself as waiting around for her to get better, or that her occasional contacts are holding me back in any way. It's not like I wait to hear from her, I have any expectations of her getting better, or that I have any consideration to just taking her back as-is. I know I can't do any of those things for my own good.
It is a shame that we sit here many months later, with nothing having changed for her, the misery of the split just pulling her back to the depression and the alcohol, where I'd hoped we may have seen a shift towards better choices. It is hard to not care about a person who was a part of your life for over 10 years. I understand that no contact is meant to allow us to care from afar, but no contact really was always more about YOU than them. Thankfully my spirits are generally good and I feel overall solid on my work and my life...if only I'd just had better luck in love.
All that said 10 years is a long relationship to get over, and most say it takes half the time to get over the person, but it's not that I am miserable, I am just somewhat damaged and ambivalent towards relationships now. Failing after 10 years of trying just sort of has me giving up on having a desire to start a new relationship. I realize this is an issue that I need to work on. But also realize there's no requirement to date anyone or be with anyone, just like my ex has no requirement to change her lifestyle one bit either. As much as she seems to want to drink, I seem to have no interest in dating. It's weird. Hard to explain, other than likely, I just feel "taken by me" and that life, while lonely at times, is never boring. My list of things to do never ends.
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Wells,
I get where you are coming from. I was with my axh for 34 years, 26 married, so I do understand. I do have to say my whole life axh new that I was always there for him, that was my problem. We stayed "friends" after the divorce. We reached out for birthdays and other holidays, and to talk about the kids. Then he reached out to answer this question, help him with his resume, sew this and so on. I told him that I needed someone to install some ceiling fans in my house and he completely ignored me. Once again, its a one way street.
It really wasn't till this summer that a switch went off and I said I can not be "friends" with him. We are no longer a couple. I can not support him when he is down and crying or when he calls and says he's not going to "make" it. I had to cut him off. June 16th, I told him, after a big fight, to stay the hxll out of my life. It was weird, no more stalking him, no hoping he would call and all the other codie stuff I had been doing for the last 1 1/2 year post divorce. It really felt good that I didn't "care" what damage he was causing in his life. It was a Wow moment. I hope that you are open to let her be on her own. Not always be there to answer her texts. Keep an open mind my friend, because it really isn't so bad, even after 34 years together.
I started dating axh when I was 15 years old, so I have never been alone. I am choosing not to date so that I can find out who I am. Its cool not to have to answer to anyone or try and please them. Its a different life for me that I am trying to navigate. But its not as bad as I thought it would be.
I get where you are coming from. I was with my axh for 34 years, 26 married, so I do understand. I do have to say my whole life axh new that I was always there for him, that was my problem. We stayed "friends" after the divorce. We reached out for birthdays and other holidays, and to talk about the kids. Then he reached out to answer this question, help him with his resume, sew this and so on. I told him that I needed someone to install some ceiling fans in my house and he completely ignored me. Once again, its a one way street.
It really wasn't till this summer that a switch went off and I said I can not be "friends" with him. We are no longer a couple. I can not support him when he is down and crying or when he calls and says he's not going to "make" it. I had to cut him off. June 16th, I told him, after a big fight, to stay the hxll out of my life. It was weird, no more stalking him, no hoping he would call and all the other codie stuff I had been doing for the last 1 1/2 year post divorce. It really felt good that I didn't "care" what damage he was causing in his life. It was a Wow moment. I hope that you are open to let her be on her own. Not always be there to answer her texts. Keep an open mind my friend, because it really isn't so bad, even after 34 years together.
I started dating axh when I was 15 years old, so I have never been alone. I am choosing not to date so that I can find out who I am. Its cool not to have to answer to anyone or try and please them. Its a different life for me that I am trying to navigate. But its not as bad as I thought it would be.
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Hi Wells,
Thanks for your reply. It made me reflect on some things and led to this long post ...
That is exactly right. It is not just the act of getting physically sober that is important long term - it is doing the work to change their thinking patterns. It is only changed thinking patterns that can keep an alcoholic sober long term.
Exactly right.
Some alcoholics do that with their relationships too - instead of doing the work to heal the relationship they have damaged by their drinking, they end that relationship as part of starting "a new life". It doesn't seem to matter that their spouse is prepared to work with the drinker to heal the relationship.
Many recovery groups are very clear that changes like this should not be made in the first 12 months of sobriety.
An article I read about that here ... https://www.addiction.com/in-recover...artner-spouse/ ... reads ...
My ex and I spent many many years together. Many drinkers would be in the position of being so thankful that their sober spouse wanted to stick by them and get them well, but when my ex relapsed with alcohol, I saw none of that thankfulness from her. I saw the opposite.
Maybe part of the reasoning behind that "no major changes in the first year of recovery" rule, is that if it is followed, it forces a drinker to face up to the damage they have caused, in multiple areas of their life, instead of running away from it ?
Lexiecat wrote about my ex in another thread "She still can't face herself, which means she can't deal with anything that reminds her of what she did to you."
I think that attitude is at the heart of this issue of people wanting to start "a new life", without repairing the damage they did to people who love them in what they see as their "old life", and who still love them. The people who love them are left in emotional agony.
It's a split from reality in which some alcoholics seem to be able to just walk away from years of closeness with someone, as if those years and time spent together never existed - like flicking a switch marked "emotions and connection ... off". I cannot fathom doing that, and I never ever thought my ex was capable of doing something like that. I see it as a form of extreme abuse to do that to another human being who you have spent years of your life with.
The key there are the words "forget everything".
Recovery is not about forget everything - it's about the opposite. For the alcoholic a huge part of recovery is about realising how your messed up decisions and messed up thinking hurt people who love you, and how those decisions hurt the alcoholic themselves.
It's about making things right with the people who were hurt by the drinking, and making things right with the self, then never ever forgetting that lesson.
It's about becoming a responsible member of the drinker's family again who does not hurt the people who love them. It's about their family being able to trust them again, and that trust not being abused ever again.
If you look at steps 4 to 12, that is in large part what they about ...
--------
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
--------
Exactly. Especially when the steps are designed so that it won't repeat again. The steps teach the lessons that must be learned so that it won't repeat again.
I also think that part of the reason that some alcoholics want to start a "new life", is because it allows them to tell whatever story they want about their past - either to themselves or others.
In my ex's case, she seems to honestly believe that I was the cause of her problems. Her family reinforced that by the way they treated me. So not only can she now spin some nonsense story in her head of what actually happened, she is surrounded by people whose actions towards me reinforce that blame on me.
That prevents an alcoholic from doing step 4 "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves", because blaming someone else for an alcoholic's decisions to drink, is not searching, it's not fearless, and it's not about the alcoholic being honest.
And with no step 4, the alcoholic comes up with an empty moral inventory and thinks that steps 5 to 12 don't apply to them.
Step 4 is an incredibly important step, because it lays the foundation for so many other steps that flow from step 4.
I'm sorry you are going through what you are too. I don't know the answer to getting through to someone in that position either.
Have you considered CRAFT ? ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commun...amily_training
This quote from that page is pretty impressive and CRAFT seems like a very useful tool to help cut through denial ...
--------
"An offshoot of the community reinforcement approach is the community reinforcement approach and family training. This program is designed to help family members of substance abusers feel empowered to engage in treatment. Community reinforcement approach and family training (CRAFT) has helped family members to get their loved ones into treatment. The rates of success have varied somewhat by study but seem to cluster around 70%.
CRAFT is one of the only family-aimed treatments with proven results for getting people with drug or alcohol problems into treatment. The program uses a variety of interventions based on functional assessment including a module to prevent domestic violence. Partners are trained to use positive reinforcement, various communication skills and natural consequences.
Alcohol abusers intervention
From an article on the American Psychology Association (APA) website about the success of CRAFT in substance abuse treatment and intervention, these are the success outcomes for engaging drinkers into treatment:
64% - CRAFT
23% - Johnson Intervention"
--------
Thanks for your reply. It made me reflect on some things and led to this long post ...
Originally Posted by Wells
Timetohealguy - Sorry for what you are going through, I'll pop into your threads later on.
But wow, yes, very similar attitude you are seeing there from your AW that you mention there in that link. The dry drunk syndrome as they refer to it almost has a 100% success rate of leading the dry drunk back to the booze, because as everyone sees, no real work is being done.
But wow, yes, very similar attitude you are seeing there from your AW that you mention there in that link. The dry drunk syndrome as they refer to it almost has a 100% success rate of leading the dry drunk back to the booze, because as everyone sees, no real work is being done.
Originally Posted by Wells
The patterns we see continue to amaze me the more I read about it. It's much easier to hit the reset button than it is to make amends or do any actual work. Why do any painful introspection or homework on yourself if you can just start over? Well, the problem as we know is that the folks who just "start over" just start the pattern over again.
Some alcoholics do that with their relationships too - instead of doing the work to heal the relationship they have damaged by their drinking, they end that relationship as part of starting "a new life". It doesn't seem to matter that their spouse is prepared to work with the drinker to heal the relationship.
Many recovery groups are very clear that changes like this should not be made in the first 12 months of sobriety.
An article I read about that here ... https://www.addiction.com/in-recover...artner-spouse/ ... reads ...
"While you can’t control whether your partner wants to call it quits, during your first year of recovery you shouldn’t initiate any major changes, and that includes ending an existing relationship or marriage, if possible, or starting a new relationship.
Now that you’re in recovery, you can reflect on your marriage or partnership and start to think about what you want to do differently, perhaps recommitting to a new kind of relationship.
And you can begin the process of making amends and rebuilding trust with your spouse.
Members of 12-step groups make a list of all the people they’ve harmed while using – which almost certainly includes your partner — and they do their best to repair the damage done to each person, except if doing so would injure themselves or others. This step can take as little as a few days up to many years to complete."
Now that you’re in recovery, you can reflect on your marriage or partnership and start to think about what you want to do differently, perhaps recommitting to a new kind of relationship.
And you can begin the process of making amends and rebuilding trust with your spouse.
Members of 12-step groups make a list of all the people they’ve harmed while using – which almost certainly includes your partner — and they do their best to repair the damage done to each person, except if doing so would injure themselves or others. This step can take as little as a few days up to many years to complete."
Maybe part of the reasoning behind that "no major changes in the first year of recovery" rule, is that if it is followed, it forces a drinker to face up to the damage they have caused, in multiple areas of their life, instead of running away from it ?
Lexiecat wrote about my ex in another thread "She still can't face herself, which means she can't deal with anything that reminds her of what she did to you."
I think that attitude is at the heart of this issue of people wanting to start "a new life", without repairing the damage they did to people who love them in what they see as their "old life", and who still love them. The people who love them are left in emotional agony.
It's a split from reality in which some alcoholics seem to be able to just walk away from years of closeness with someone, as if those years and time spent together never existed - like flicking a switch marked "emotions and connection ... off". I cannot fathom doing that, and I never ever thought my ex was capable of doing something like that. I see it as a form of extreme abuse to do that to another human being who you have spent years of your life with.
Originally Posted by Wells
I'm a little scared for my ex as I worry that she thinks moving to a new state, a new job, is all that you have to do to forget everything.
Recovery is not about forget everything - it's about the opposite. For the alcoholic a huge part of recovery is about realising how your messed up decisions and messed up thinking hurt people who love you, and how those decisions hurt the alcoholic themselves.
It's about making things right with the people who were hurt by the drinking, and making things right with the self, then never ever forgetting that lesson.
It's about becoming a responsible member of the drinker's family again who does not hurt the people who love them. It's about their family being able to trust them again, and that trust not being abused ever again.
If you look at steps 4 to 12, that is in large part what they about ...
--------
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
--------
Originally Posted by Wells
Without any work done, the patterns will just repeat. In her mind it's too hard to stay here around people and places who know her past. Starting over with new everything means she can do it all right and no one has to know about the past.
But what happens if the same patterns repeat themselves?
But what happens if the same patterns repeat themselves?
Originally Posted by Wells
And to hear that she wants to get married, and have children -- It doesn't make me sad for me, but it makes me worried for her a little bit -- She needs to be a lot healthier before she drags a husband or brings kids into this.
She has the perfect opportunity right now to get better. Stop drinking, set a recovery plan, get professional help, see a doctor who specializes in depression, and get her life back on track. From that point whether she stays in town, whether she moves across the country, changes jobs, starts a family...whatever she does, she will be in a much better state of mind and a better position to succeed in that. Unfortunately, simply running away and starting fresh doesn't have a great track record as a fix in this sort of scenario.
As you have wisely said TTHG, it is a form of ignorance and selfishness to essentially avoid the discomfort, avoid any sort of responsibility or blame, and just try to act like the last X years of alcohol abuse never happened. It also seems to be one of the main traits of a depressive alcoholic. No accountability. It's like already being in a 20 foot deep hole and then having someone start pouring in quicksand. Fuel to the fire.
She has the perfect opportunity right now to get better. Stop drinking, set a recovery plan, get professional help, see a doctor who specializes in depression, and get her life back on track. From that point whether she stays in town, whether she moves across the country, changes jobs, starts a family...whatever she does, she will be in a much better state of mind and a better position to succeed in that. Unfortunately, simply running away and starting fresh doesn't have a great track record as a fix in this sort of scenario.
As you have wisely said TTHG, it is a form of ignorance and selfishness to essentially avoid the discomfort, avoid any sort of responsibility or blame, and just try to act like the last X years of alcohol abuse never happened. It also seems to be one of the main traits of a depressive alcoholic. No accountability. It's like already being in a 20 foot deep hole and then having someone start pouring in quicksand. Fuel to the fire.
In my ex's case, she seems to honestly believe that I was the cause of her problems. Her family reinforced that by the way they treated me. So not only can she now spin some nonsense story in her head of what actually happened, she is surrounded by people whose actions towards me reinforce that blame on me.
That prevents an alcoholic from doing step 4 "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves", because blaming someone else for an alcoholic's decisions to drink, is not searching, it's not fearless, and it's not about the alcoholic being honest.
And with no step 4, the alcoholic comes up with an empty moral inventory and thinks that steps 5 to 12 don't apply to them.
Step 4 is an incredibly important step, because it lays the foundation for so many other steps that flow from step 4.
Originally Posted by Wells
Sorry you are going through it, I know how frustrating it can be to know the right steps but have no way to get through to someone you love.
Have you considered CRAFT ? ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commun...amily_training
This quote from that page is pretty impressive and CRAFT seems like a very useful tool to help cut through denial ...
--------
"An offshoot of the community reinforcement approach is the community reinforcement approach and family training. This program is designed to help family members of substance abusers feel empowered to engage in treatment. Community reinforcement approach and family training (CRAFT) has helped family members to get their loved ones into treatment. The rates of success have varied somewhat by study but seem to cluster around 70%.
CRAFT is one of the only family-aimed treatments with proven results for getting people with drug or alcohol problems into treatment. The program uses a variety of interventions based on functional assessment including a module to prevent domestic violence. Partners are trained to use positive reinforcement, various communication skills and natural consequences.
Alcohol abusers intervention
From an article on the American Psychology Association (APA) website about the success of CRAFT in substance abuse treatment and intervention, these are the success outcomes for engaging drinkers into treatment:
64% - CRAFT
23% - Johnson Intervention"
--------
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by Wells
The problem is that the spiral/loop whatever you call it is so profound, the depression gets worse, the alcohol provides the quick fix, the depression comes back stronger, lather, rinse, repeat. Like others have said, the person really has to want to get better really, really bad before they can.
I wonder how many more folks with clinical depression would respond better to treatment if they eliminate alcohol from their lives? I wonder how many clinically depressed people use drugs or alcohol? It's probably a crazy stat.
I wonder how many more folks with clinical depression would respond better to treatment if they eliminate alcohol from their lives? I wonder how many clinically depressed people use drugs or alcohol? It's probably a crazy stat.
I have read a number of articles that say that the alcohol causes the anxiety to be much worse, so the alcohol is actually creating anxiety levels that would not exist if not for the alcohol.
http://alcoholrehab.com/alcoholism/a...duced-anxiety/ ... reads ...
Alcohol Induced Anxiety
Those people who never suffered with any issues involving anxiety can develop problems as a result of alcohol abuse. This is because drinking excessively induces the symptoms of anxiety, and it can even trigger panic attacks. This is because of the effects that alcohol has on the body – it is a toxin that can cause havoc to proper physical and mental functioning. Initially alcohol can have a calming effect, but when people abuse it they are likely to find that alcohol becomes the source of their anxiety.
Those people who never suffered with any issues involving anxiety can develop problems as a result of alcohol abuse. This is because drinking excessively induces the symptoms of anxiety, and it can even trigger panic attacks. This is because of the effects that alcohol has on the body – it is a toxin that can cause havoc to proper physical and mental functioning. Initially alcohol can have a calming effect, but when people abuse it they are likely to find that alcohol becomes the source of their anxiety.
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Thread Starter
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TTHG -
I must commend you on the introspection you've shown here in your comments. I'll get to all that in a moment, but I first wanted to say, I know we read a lot of advice that says not to try and figure it out, or focus on it, because that is time you could be focusing on YOU and your recovery. For me, it helped me just to feel better and understand more about how that while I was an actor in the play, this wasn't my fault and it wasn't something I could have controlled or changed. Part of my healing process was understanding.
Yes, there is also truth in the comments about this kind of thinking dragging some people back to the well for another round. The more you stay connected to the person, the easier it is to fall back into the pattern, so I can certainly also understand why the no contact, no introspection about THEM is also frequent and good advice.
On to your many excellent comments.
Anxiety - Anxiety is a tough one. I recently got a string of apologetic texts from my ex, maybe 2 months ago, following a 20/20 expose about a female reporter on that network, Elizabeth Vargas, who had a drinking problem and pattern very similar to what I experienced with my ex and that I've read about many other males experiencing who dealt with female alcoholics. It's often a very different dynamic when the problem drinker is a female, so seeing it from that side, and the similarities, is quite interesting. My ex's comments indicated that I should watch the show, because it was EXACTLY like she felt. Ms. Vargas blamed anxiety on her alcohol consumption. In other words, she wasn't drinking just because -- She drank to calm her anxiety. Your point about about anxiety and alcoholism being a dangerous spiral certainly rings true, but I also could not help but thinking, is anxiety also another excuse that alcoholics use to drink? Perhaps a half truth. I wish Ms. Vargas well in her recovery. My ex was back at the bar within days of her verbose apologies after watching her story on 20/20.
So yes, depression, alcohol, anxiety...All diseases of the brain, which are quite terrible, in that most diagnoses are theoretical, not physical. Someone who is suffering from diabetes for example can submit to a blood test that will affirm this condition. There is no blood test for anxiety, or depression, or alcoholism, at least, not as far as I know. Without any concrete advice, those afflicted often convince themselves that they either don't have it, or even worse, that since there is no way to officially diagnose it, there must also officially be no cure for it. My ex took depression meds for years, but also drank alcohol, and as such never gave the various depression meds a chance to work. Eventually, she determined she no longer wanted to take the pills because she wants to be "pill free" and also seemed to lose any hope in that there was any sort of medication that could cure her. She felt she wanted to feel however her brain wanted to feel, and wanted no chemicals to tell her otherwise (except alcohol, ironically, which gets granted a strange exemption. At times, other drugs were allowed as well. It's almost like anything NOT prescribed was fine, but if a doctor wanted her taking it, it was an invasion). Very, very strange afflictions that convince the person who has them that they should not fight to cure them.
More in a moment.
I must commend you on the introspection you've shown here in your comments. I'll get to all that in a moment, but I first wanted to say, I know we read a lot of advice that says not to try and figure it out, or focus on it, because that is time you could be focusing on YOU and your recovery. For me, it helped me just to feel better and understand more about how that while I was an actor in the play, this wasn't my fault and it wasn't something I could have controlled or changed. Part of my healing process was understanding.
Yes, there is also truth in the comments about this kind of thinking dragging some people back to the well for another round. The more you stay connected to the person, the easier it is to fall back into the pattern, so I can certainly also understand why the no contact, no introspection about THEM is also frequent and good advice.
On to your many excellent comments.
Anxiety - Anxiety is a tough one. I recently got a string of apologetic texts from my ex, maybe 2 months ago, following a 20/20 expose about a female reporter on that network, Elizabeth Vargas, who had a drinking problem and pattern very similar to what I experienced with my ex and that I've read about many other males experiencing who dealt with female alcoholics. It's often a very different dynamic when the problem drinker is a female, so seeing it from that side, and the similarities, is quite interesting. My ex's comments indicated that I should watch the show, because it was EXACTLY like she felt. Ms. Vargas blamed anxiety on her alcohol consumption. In other words, she wasn't drinking just because -- She drank to calm her anxiety. Your point about about anxiety and alcoholism being a dangerous spiral certainly rings true, but I also could not help but thinking, is anxiety also another excuse that alcoholics use to drink? Perhaps a half truth. I wish Ms. Vargas well in her recovery. My ex was back at the bar within days of her verbose apologies after watching her story on 20/20.
So yes, depression, alcohol, anxiety...All diseases of the brain, which are quite terrible, in that most diagnoses are theoretical, not physical. Someone who is suffering from diabetes for example can submit to a blood test that will affirm this condition. There is no blood test for anxiety, or depression, or alcoholism, at least, not as far as I know. Without any concrete advice, those afflicted often convince themselves that they either don't have it, or even worse, that since there is no way to officially diagnose it, there must also officially be no cure for it. My ex took depression meds for years, but also drank alcohol, and as such never gave the various depression meds a chance to work. Eventually, she determined she no longer wanted to take the pills because she wants to be "pill free" and also seemed to lose any hope in that there was any sort of medication that could cure her. She felt she wanted to feel however her brain wanted to feel, and wanted no chemicals to tell her otherwise (except alcohol, ironically, which gets granted a strange exemption. At times, other drugs were allowed as well. It's almost like anything NOT prescribed was fine, but if a doctor wanted her taking it, it was an invasion). Very, very strange afflictions that convince the person who has them that they should not fight to cure them.
More in a moment.
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Posts: 216
TTHG - Regarding your other comments.
"Doing the work" is that elusive fix that sadly it seems some never find. A lot of the work, I think, is mental. It's the acceptance of what has been done. As I stated above and you wisely saw, running away and hitting the reset button seems to be the most favored approach of the addict. In their mind, they can just have a "do over" and starting over with new people, a new environment, etc, avoids having to be introspective because none of the new people are any the wiser. It's the dream of the addict. They will be different this time, and even better, they carried no one from their "past life" into this new world which will make it easy to just start over and do it better. Doing the work and working on yourself is much better. The "reset button" without a recovery plan is usually just a do over of the same thing again, just moving the needle from the end of the record back to the start again.
I'm not sure anything I wrote can say it any better than you just did there. This is a big problem and a key reason that any alcoholic, male or female, fails at recovery. For some with the willpower, the quitting the actual drug may be easier than letting the guard down and facing with emotions, the entire scope of their involvement in the downfall of their relationships with you and others. For many of them, this is just too much to bear. Hence, the alcohol remains as an old friend to avoid facing the truth. I have seen the rare times where she actually feels the remorse - It's heartbreaking. I have seen true anguish in her and I can understand how that pain can be so bad, she wants to do anything else she can to calm it. It's a hard pain to feel.
I'm sorry to hear that your ex has been so shut off to it, and reacted in that attack-like way, angry at you when she really should be angry at herself. Gaslighting is such a common thing. It took me a while to realize that though. Once you realize that they are really saying to you, what they want to say to themselves, but can't, you at least understand. But it is still never easy to hear.
Great callback to the steps and the emphasis they put on self-realization. That is exactly why they were written in that way. They are there to guide those who are ready though the proper steps to hold themselves accountable for what got them to that point. They need to be able to forgive themselves before accepting forgiveness from others. Such a hard journey to make, and I can see why "forget everything" becomes an attractive option.
I would hope you don't honestly think that your ex honestly doesn't hold herself accountable for the downfall of your relationship. She may say that to your face...but when the room is quiet, the lights are off, and the world is dark...when she is in the room alone with nothing but her own thoughts...she knows why things are the way they are.
Thanks for the link to CRAFT, certainly not something I have heard of before.
For a while after our latest breakup, I had hope that my ex would decide to at least attempt a recovery, or ask someone, anyone, for help. It didn't have to be me. A few down moments aside (all fueled by alcohol which as we know can exacerbate depression even further)...she has never once seeked help or recovery. I had to accept that she may never want that, and instead just continue to repeat the cycle over and over and over.
This place remains so helpful and hopeful, even though I don't do everything perfect, I am doing things my way and have learned so much about what got me to this point, and the way I want to live the rest of my life.
That is exactly right. It is not just the act of getting physically sober that is important long term - it is doing the work to change their thinking patterns. It is only changed thinking patterns that can keep an alcoholic sober long term.
Some alcoholics do that with their relationships too - instead of doing the work to heal the relationship they have damaged by their drinking, they end that relationship as part of starting "a new life". It doesn't seem to matter that their spouse is prepared to work with the drinker to heal the relationship.
Some alcoholics do that with their relationships too - instead of doing the work to heal the relationship they have damaged by their drinking, they end that relationship as part of starting "a new life". It doesn't seem to matter that their spouse is prepared to work with the drinker to heal the relationship.
My ex and I spent many many years together. Many drinkers would be in the position of being so thankful that their sober spouse wanted to stick by them and get them well, but when my ex relapsed with alcohol, I saw none of that thankfulness from her. I saw the opposite.
Maybe part of the reasoning behind that "no major changes in the first year of recovery" rule, is that if it is followed, it forces a drinker to face up to the damage they have caused, in multiple areas of their life, instead of running away from it ?
Lexiecat wrote about my ex in another thread "She still can't face herself, which means she can't deal with anything that reminds her of what she did to you."
I think that attitude is at the heart of this issue of people wanting to start "a new life", without repairing the damage they did to people who love them in what they see as their "old life", and who still love them. The people who love them are left in emotional agony.
It's a split from reality in which some alcoholics seem to be able to just walk away from years of closeness with someone, as if those years and time spent together never existed - like flicking a switch marked "emotions and connection ... off". I cannot fathom doing that, and I never ever thought my ex was capable of doing something like that. I see it as a form of extreme abuse to do that to another human being who you have spent years of your life with.
Maybe part of the reasoning behind that "no major changes in the first year of recovery" rule, is that if it is followed, it forces a drinker to face up to the damage they have caused, in multiple areas of their life, instead of running away from it ?
Lexiecat wrote about my ex in another thread "She still can't face herself, which means she can't deal with anything that reminds her of what she did to you."
I think that attitude is at the heart of this issue of people wanting to start "a new life", without repairing the damage they did to people who love them in what they see as their "old life", and who still love them. The people who love them are left in emotional agony.
It's a split from reality in which some alcoholics seem to be able to just walk away from years of closeness with someone, as if those years and time spent together never existed - like flicking a switch marked "emotions and connection ... off". I cannot fathom doing that, and I never ever thought my ex was capable of doing something like that. I see it as a form of extreme abuse to do that to another human being who you have spent years of your life with.
I'm sorry to hear that your ex has been so shut off to it, and reacted in that attack-like way, angry at you when she really should be angry at herself. Gaslighting is such a common thing. It took me a while to realize that though. Once you realize that they are really saying to you, what they want to say to themselves, but can't, you at least understand. But it is still never easy to hear.
Recovery is not about forget everything - it's about the opposite. For the alcoholic a huge part of recovery is about realising how your messed up decisions and messed up thinking hurt people who love you, and how those decisions hurt the alcoholic themselves.
I also think that part of the reason that some alcoholics want to start a "new life", is because it allows them to tell whatever story they want about their past - either to themselves or others.
In my ex's case, she seems to honestly believe that I was the cause of her problems. Her family reinforced that by the way they treated me. So not only can she now spin some nonsense story in her head of what actually happened, she is surrounded by people whose actions towards me reinforce that blame on me.
That prevents an alcoholic from doing step 4 "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves", because blaming someone else for an alcoholic's decisions to drink, is not searching, it's not fearless, and it's not about the alcoholic being honest.
In my ex's case, she seems to honestly believe that I was the cause of her problems. Her family reinforced that by the way they treated me. So not only can she now spin some nonsense story in her head of what actually happened, she is surrounded by people whose actions towards me reinforce that blame on me.
That prevents an alcoholic from doing step 4 "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves", because blaming someone else for an alcoholic's decisions to drink, is not searching, it's not fearless, and it's not about the alcoholic being honest.
Thanks for the link to CRAFT, certainly not something I have heard of before.
For a while after our latest breakup, I had hope that my ex would decide to at least attempt a recovery, or ask someone, anyone, for help. It didn't have to be me. A few down moments aside (all fueled by alcohol which as we know can exacerbate depression even further)...she has never once seeked help or recovery. I had to accept that she may never want that, and instead just continue to repeat the cycle over and over and over.
This place remains so helpful and hopeful, even though I don't do everything perfect, I am doing things my way and have learned so much about what got me to this point, and the way I want to live the rest of my life.
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