Your thoughts on Denial
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Join Date: Aug 2016
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Your thoughts on Denial
In the BB, it is written that some are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.
Doing some reading, I found a statement that equated that level of denial with the person's IQ.
Thoughts?
Doing some reading, I found a statement that equated that level of denial with the person's IQ.
Thoughts?
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: US
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Well a person's 'constitution' is one's disposition, attitude and personality. I believe that when a person is constitutionally incapable of being honest it means that their denial runs so deep they cannot accept any other truth. They have lied to themselves and to others for so long that they believe their own crap. They are completely unwilling to listen to others and take direction. They know their lives are a mess but aren't truly honest open and willing to a new way of life. My experience is that these people blame everyone/everything else for their problems and tend to think they are completely unique (ie, "I've had it harder than you" "You don't understand me" "this will be harder for me than most" etc etc).
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Yes... I agree with that.
Taking it a bit deeper... do you think a sociopath or psychopath... do they have the same wherewithal that we do to create a place of honesty within themselves?
just a little light conversation for a Monday morning... -
Taking it a bit deeper... do you think a sociopath or psychopath... do they have the same wherewithal that we do to create a place of honesty within themselves?
just a little light conversation for a Monday morning... -
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OK maybe I said that wrong; maybe I shouldn't say "we". I can't say who is or isn't socio/psychopath. I'm just wondering about the "ability" to get honest and the differences in the brain... does that makes sense?
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Haven't a clue. Maybe Endgame can answer that one! I think by virtue of being a socio/psychopath a person is extremely antisocial and has a pretty skewed view of their own ego and power. But who knows. I guess it would depend on the severity of their condition.
Haha. Light conversation indeed.
Haha. Light conversation indeed.
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It makes sense to me to have an AA member's POV on this
I want to give some props out to Sugah who wrote about this a long time ago:
That's from d i c t i o n a r y . c o m. The phrase used to tick me off, too, especially when I was in (and very often fall back into) the state of mind that "it's all about me."
I think it can mean a lot of things. If ego is such that a simple inability to be willing to give the steps a try prevent someone from getting started, I think that can qualify as "constitutionally incapable of being honest." Perhaps some belief systems from childhood or lifetime conditioning have effectively closed the door to an open mindedness necessary to make a start of the AA program of recovery. I know there will be those who will come back and say, "You're just saying the AA program is the only method for personal honesty!" I'm not saying that. I'm saying that open mindedness, the willingness to accept that there may be another truth other than the one I've held fast to, that's kept me drinking, is necessary. It's the simple admission to myself that "I may not be right. I should listen to these folks, read this book, and decide for myself -- after I give it a chance." Discarding personal bias isn't easy. I struggled for years before I came in, became part of and stayed sober.
Just my two cents. Great thread, btw!
Peace & Love,
Sugah I think open mindedness is necessary no matter what path you take.
I've met people who would not be open minded...but very few people who could not.
D
I want to give some props out to Sugah who wrote about this a long time ago:
Originally Posted by Sugah 
con-sti-tu-tion-al-ly
in respect to physical makeup: He is constitutionally fitted for heavy labor.
in respect to mental or emotional makeup: constitutionally unable to speak before an audience.
with respect to a constitution: constitutionally invalid law.
in respect to physical makeup: He is constitutionally fitted for heavy labor.
in respect to mental or emotional makeup: constitutionally unable to speak before an audience.
with respect to a constitution: constitutionally invalid law.
I think it can mean a lot of things. If ego is such that a simple inability to be willing to give the steps a try prevent someone from getting started, I think that can qualify as "constitutionally incapable of being honest." Perhaps some belief systems from childhood or lifetime conditioning have effectively closed the door to an open mindedness necessary to make a start of the AA program of recovery. I know there will be those who will come back and say, "You're just saying the AA program is the only method for personal honesty!" I'm not saying that. I'm saying that open mindedness, the willingness to accept that there may be another truth other than the one I've held fast to, that's kept me drinking, is necessary. It's the simple admission to myself that "I may not be right. I should listen to these folks, read this book, and decide for myself -- after I give it a chance." Discarding personal bias isn't easy. I struggled for years before I came in, became part of and stayed sober.
Just my two cents. Great thread, btw!
Peace & Love,
Sugah
I've met people who would not be open minded...but very few people who could not.
D
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Thanks Frick for your thoughts and Dee for the info. and thanks to Sugah for the original post.
I have to get ready for work now but I would like to delve into this a bit more; I welcome all thoughts and experiences any of you may have...
Thank you all for being here!
I have to get ready for work now but I would like to delve into this a bit more; I welcome all thoughts and experiences any of you may have...
Thank you all for being here!
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Join Date: Sep 2016
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From what I understand denial is a psychological defense mechanism. There are several others such as rationalization, displacement, projection, reaction formation and sublimation. If I recall correctly, everyone uses them from time to time but we tend to gravitate towards "pet defenses" for lack of a better term. One person might use a lot of rationalization, another person might use more projection. I suspect, given the nature of alcoholism, many of us have engaged in a fair amount of denial over the years!
Recovered
Join Date: Jun 2009
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I was constitutionally incapable of honesty until I wasn't. My sponsor told me that I was working the steps as "honestly as I knew how at the time". Denial peeled away in thin layers. I still have plenty of it. I am passing from "not knowing what I don't know" to "knowing what I don't know" about what honesty is. I know very little and have a lot to learn. I am learning that "honesty" is a nuanced thing. I navigate it with the help of a Higher Power and sponsor.
In the beginning, my sponsor had me write down all the lies I told that day. It got me looking inside at myself and how EVERYTHING I did/said/thought was essentially made-up to fit a reality I had created. It was the first step to becoming constitutionally CAPABLE of honesty. Perspective (seeing things as they REALLY are) helps me in the honesty department. It allows me to "change my lenses", so to speak. I don't see the world as it is, I see as I am.
A work in progress....
In the beginning, my sponsor had me write down all the lies I told that day. It got me looking inside at myself and how EVERYTHING I did/said/thought was essentially made-up to fit a reality I had created. It was the first step to becoming constitutionally CAPABLE of honesty. Perspective (seeing things as they REALLY are) helps me in the honesty department. It allows me to "change my lenses", so to speak. I don't see the world as it is, I see as I am.
A work in progress....
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Heard Denial explained by , using the word denial as D on't E ven N otice I A m L ying = D E N I A L.
Denial is not a river in Africa either (grin ) .
Personally I think denial is like , make believe, lying about everything and rationalizing and justifying without being at times ''really aware of it'' it can become a way of life , a certain way of believing and thinking like the ''great I am '' ego ran wild .
Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
Denial is not a river in Africa either (grin ) .
Personally I think denial is like , make believe, lying about everything and rationalizing and justifying without being at times ''really aware of it'' it can become a way of life , a certain way of believing and thinking like the ''great I am '' ego ran wild .
Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
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I was well aware that I was an alcoholic for over 10 years before I bothered to do anything about it. I simply accepted it as part of me. Accepting being an alcoholic did nothing to encourage me to stop. It took a bad blood test to wake me up.
Catch 22
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I agree with Tekink. I also knew and accepted I was an alcoholic for many years. I was fine with it. Thought I handled it well and anyway that was me and I can live my life as I choose. It was only when it started affecting my health that I stopped.
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I think youre referring to this part of the BB?
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a way of life which demands rigorous honesty.
what that means is a persons IQ is so low they cant understand or comprehend what honesty is- they are born that way. they are constitutionally incapable because they cant learn.they cant read or write or understand.
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a way of life which demands rigorous honesty.
what that means is a persons IQ is so low they cant understand or comprehend what honesty is- they are born that way. they are constitutionally incapable because they cant learn.they cant read or write or understand.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
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tomsteve I don't think that is correct. The phrase "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" has nothing to do with IQ. I believe the phrase has to do with self appraisal. I believe that it points to an extreme inability to see a problem realistically (at least where alcohol is concerned). Bill was not a mental health professional but I think he was pointing to severe denial. Denial, in the sense of the word in the way it is used to describe a psychological defense mechanism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial
BTW, the psychological defense mechanisms are used by everyone. We just have a hard time recognizing that we are using them in the moment. They are easier to see when we look back at ourselves in the past or look at other people (because there is less need to 'defend' ourselves in these cases).
BTW, the psychological defense mechanisms are used by everyone. We just have a hard time recognizing that we are using them in the moment. They are easier to see when we look back at ourselves in the past or look at other people (because there is less need to 'defend' ourselves in these cases).
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we'll agree to disagree, awuh.
"I believe that it points to an extreme inability to see a problem realistically (at least where alcohol is concerned)."
they are not at fault. they seemed to have been born that way.
because a person was born with such a low IQ they cant have the ability to see a problem realistically..
which that part of the bb wasn't something bill just thought up. it was information from doc silkworth,
"I believe that it points to an extreme inability to see a problem realistically (at least where alcohol is concerned)."
they are not at fault. they seemed to have been born that way.
because a person was born with such a low IQ they cant have the ability to see a problem realistically..
which that part of the bb wasn't something bill just thought up. it was information from doc silkworth,
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I believe from what I have heard in meetings people in denial are fighting there inability to quit drinking, am I or am I not an alcoholic.
I was never in denial I accepted I was a alcoholic at 21 and embraced the lifestyle as long as I could.
I was never in denial I accepted I was a alcoholic at 21 and embraced the lifestyle as long as I could.
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if i'm constitutionally incapable of something, i'm "made that way".
nothing to do with intelligence.
some rather clever people seem unable to be honest. with themselves or others.
some in the news every day
and i believe one of my brothers is, too. very bright, and incapable, i believe, of realistic self-appraisal.
as i was, also, while drinking.
being incapable, though, isn't equivalent to being in denial.
nothing to do with intelligence.
some rather clever people seem unable to be honest. with themselves or others.
some in the news every day
and i believe one of my brothers is, too. very bright, and incapable, i believe, of realistic self-appraisal.
as i was, also, while drinking.
being incapable, though, isn't equivalent to being in denial.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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tomsteve, the full names of all the people who participated in AA before the book was published can be found. and I have looked for information on many (but not all) of these individuals. I have never come across a description of someone with a low IQ in this group of about 100 names. On the contrary. Many of the early members were professionals and successful business people. If you have any evidence for the assertion that "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" refers to a low IQ I would like to see it. I have never seen anything to support this assertion.
fini, the word 'constitutionally' does seem to almost put a biological spin on "incapable of being honest". The qualifier "seem to be" is the crux of it though. Bill is essentially saying he does not understand precisely where this inability to be honest with self comes from. Little wonder. He did not have the benefit of any training in mental health aside from his own readings. My understanding is that he wished to convey to the reader what a profound obstacle this self deception can be.
fini, the word 'constitutionally' does seem to almost put a biological spin on "incapable of being honest". The qualifier "seem to be" is the crux of it though. Bill is essentially saying he does not understand precisely where this inability to be honest with self comes from. Little wonder. He did not have the benefit of any training in mental health aside from his own readings. My understanding is that he wished to convey to the reader what a profound obstacle this self deception can be.
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