In the middle
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In the middle
I'm wondering how anyone else has/would handle this?
My husband doesn't believe in therapy. He's never been, so it's not based on a bad experience. He thinks that he can handle anything, by himself. The problem is, he doesn't handle it by himself. He holds things in (obviously in this case I'm talking about his feelings regarding our son's addiction and now recovery) until he gets over the top upset and then he talks to me - or more accurately he'll say things about our son, when our son is not home, but I'm in the room.
Example - when son left to stay with a friend last weekend, I was upset and husband was saying "this is the way it is. He's going to keep hurting you. You can't believe a word that comes out of his mouth. He's going to get clean but not stay. My friend at work sent his son to rehab in California. Send him to California."
(OK, I've just got to say here I'm the one who found the rehab that he did go to, which was in his insurance, and I promise you he was not in a unicorns and rainbows luxury set up. He was there with people like himself who sought treatment, but also with people who were court ordered to attend).
I'm tired of hearing about the friend whose son went to California. It's not a magic land. The 30/60/whatever many days are only the beginning - it's how to live day-to-day after rehab that my son is facing now. but every time there's a bump or hiccup or misunderstanding, it's because son didn't go to "that rehab in california" - I'm so f----ng sick of hearing about it that if California split off from the country and sank in the Pacific, I'd be relieved (with many apologies to anyone reading this who lives in Calif -- you know I don't really mean that).
I've got my own problems dealing with all of this, which is why I talk to my therapist and sometimes to my best friend. I suffer from anxiety as it is, so the past two years have put me through hell.
My husband will get upset, but act nice when he's with our son. Then he'll text me at work (for instance) and say "(son) asked to borrow $20 from me. I said no. I'm not giving him any money. I don't trust him."
So I'm at work, and I get that text. Just one example. I have asked husband that if son talks to his therapist and asks, can the three of us attend his next tx session with him, to talk about some family dynamics, rebuilding trust, establishing/maintaining/modifying family rules...?" and he says no, because HE doesn't need a therapist.
He was all worked up this weekend, when talking to ME but then on Sunday night decided to go to bed before son got home (had been staying with a friend) and tells me that whatever I say to son about the weekend is fine with him. He didn't say it nasty or annoyed or anything other than ducking the responsibility of talking about something serious, himself.
No, I said. Because then if he doesn't agree with something, he tells me I'm a pushover, that I'm too easy.
Yet I'M THE ONE who has done the hard work. I helped son find detox and rehab, I helped him find an attorney, I am the one he'll wake up if he's feeling the need to talk or cry, etc.
My son is doing a good job, and I am proud of him EVERY DAY that he is clean. He does not have a free ride here - he works, he has to follow rules.
My husband will act like they're "besties" if they have a cigar together or go fishing together, but then as soon as he sees anything he doesn't like, he tells me about it "when son comes home, tell him....."
NO! YOU TELL HIM.
I'm sorry I'm in a real mood today. I'm making him sound like a horrible person, which he isn't, but he simply cannot deal with a catastrophe (don't get me going on his reaction to each of his parents' deaths!).
Anyway, how do I shut him up or get him into therapy?
My husband doesn't believe in therapy. He's never been, so it's not based on a bad experience. He thinks that he can handle anything, by himself. The problem is, he doesn't handle it by himself. He holds things in (obviously in this case I'm talking about his feelings regarding our son's addiction and now recovery) until he gets over the top upset and then he talks to me - or more accurately he'll say things about our son, when our son is not home, but I'm in the room.
Example - when son left to stay with a friend last weekend, I was upset and husband was saying "this is the way it is. He's going to keep hurting you. You can't believe a word that comes out of his mouth. He's going to get clean but not stay. My friend at work sent his son to rehab in California. Send him to California."
(OK, I've just got to say here I'm the one who found the rehab that he did go to, which was in his insurance, and I promise you he was not in a unicorns and rainbows luxury set up. He was there with people like himself who sought treatment, but also with people who were court ordered to attend).
I'm tired of hearing about the friend whose son went to California. It's not a magic land. The 30/60/whatever many days are only the beginning - it's how to live day-to-day after rehab that my son is facing now. but every time there's a bump or hiccup or misunderstanding, it's because son didn't go to "that rehab in california" - I'm so f----ng sick of hearing about it that if California split off from the country and sank in the Pacific, I'd be relieved (with many apologies to anyone reading this who lives in Calif -- you know I don't really mean that).
I've got my own problems dealing with all of this, which is why I talk to my therapist and sometimes to my best friend. I suffer from anxiety as it is, so the past two years have put me through hell.
My husband will get upset, but act nice when he's with our son. Then he'll text me at work (for instance) and say "(son) asked to borrow $20 from me. I said no. I'm not giving him any money. I don't trust him."
So I'm at work, and I get that text. Just one example. I have asked husband that if son talks to his therapist and asks, can the three of us attend his next tx session with him, to talk about some family dynamics, rebuilding trust, establishing/maintaining/modifying family rules...?" and he says no, because HE doesn't need a therapist.
He was all worked up this weekend, when talking to ME but then on Sunday night decided to go to bed before son got home (had been staying with a friend) and tells me that whatever I say to son about the weekend is fine with him. He didn't say it nasty or annoyed or anything other than ducking the responsibility of talking about something serious, himself.
No, I said. Because then if he doesn't agree with something, he tells me I'm a pushover, that I'm too easy.
Yet I'M THE ONE who has done the hard work. I helped son find detox and rehab, I helped him find an attorney, I am the one he'll wake up if he's feeling the need to talk or cry, etc.
My son is doing a good job, and I am proud of him EVERY DAY that he is clean. He does not have a free ride here - he works, he has to follow rules.
My husband will act like they're "besties" if they have a cigar together or go fishing together, but then as soon as he sees anything he doesn't like, he tells me about it "when son comes home, tell him....."
NO! YOU TELL HIM.
I'm sorry I'm in a real mood today. I'm making him sound like a horrible person, which he isn't, but he simply cannot deal with a catastrophe (don't get me going on his reaction to each of his parents' deaths!).
Anyway, how do I shut him up or get him into therapy?
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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JennaRoseMadre....some people are very rigid in their attitudes...There are lots of people who would rather be sent to Siberia, than to be associated with therapy or "shrinks", or the like. It is a cultural attitude and seeing a counselor, "shrink, therapist...or anyone that gives "advice" is seen as an erosion of manliness. A "man" is strong, confident and can solve his own problens!
Such people are unlikely to change their stance unless there is some very painful situation or crisis where they have no other option....(like forced by the courts, or have a psychotic break or suicidal crisis--something really bad).
I am going to say something that may really make your hair stand up......it may be that YOU will have to do the changing..if any changes are to be made.
The dynamics in a family are usually a "dance of collusion"....whether recognized by the members or not....
This idea of mine might sound like the end of your world for you.....but, it really wouldn't be.....It may be necessary......
Please don't think that I am saying that you have to accommodate whatever your husband wants...gosh no! (Although, he might be right about some of the non enabling things). But, you may need a new way of being and have new boundaries in the relationship....and be accepting that some things between you have to/need to change.....
Such people are unlikely to change their stance unless there is some very painful situation or crisis where they have no other option....(like forced by the courts, or have a psychotic break or suicidal crisis--something really bad).
I am going to say something that may really make your hair stand up......it may be that YOU will have to do the changing..if any changes are to be made.
The dynamics in a family are usually a "dance of collusion"....whether recognized by the members or not....
This idea of mine might sound like the end of your world for you.....but, it really wouldn't be.....It may be necessary......
Please don't think that I am saying that you have to accommodate whatever your husband wants...gosh no! (Although, he might be right about some of the non enabling things). But, you may need a new way of being and have new boundaries in the relationship....and be accepting that some things between you have to/need to change.....
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: NORTHFIELD
Posts: 188
Wow do I feel you and get where you are coming from. Mine is much the same way. Wants no part of therapy, support groups, any of it.
Also he hates being the bad guy. So I've been appointed to the position, no matter what I do or how I react or don't.
I don't have an answer. (If you find one, please share!) What seems to be our biggest problems are not being on the same page at the same time. Hard to do, when emotions are in constant flux. It's hard when there is so much to have to talk about and you are so sick to death of the topic, because it only brings more misery.
I tried a tactic at one point, where we didn't discuss it. At All. That doesn't work either. Have you told him straight up that if he's not willing to discuss it with son that you don't want or need to hear about it? I get if he's stuffing it all down , and you are the only one that he opens up to, it puts you and your relationship in a Hard, hard spot. But, like you said, your time and energy has been directed at the hard work at hand, and you HAVE to take care of yourself too. Just know you're not alone. I swear talking about it helps, don't apologize, keeping it doesn't help so much.
Also he hates being the bad guy. So I've been appointed to the position, no matter what I do or how I react or don't.
I don't have an answer. (If you find one, please share!) What seems to be our biggest problems are not being on the same page at the same time. Hard to do, when emotions are in constant flux. It's hard when there is so much to have to talk about and you are so sick to death of the topic, because it only brings more misery.
I tried a tactic at one point, where we didn't discuss it. At All. That doesn't work either. Have you told him straight up that if he's not willing to discuss it with son that you don't want or need to hear about it? I get if he's stuffing it all down , and you are the only one that he opens up to, it puts you and your relationship in a Hard, hard spot. But, like you said, your time and energy has been directed at the hard work at hand, and you HAVE to take care of yourself too. Just know you're not alone. I swear talking about it helps, don't apologize, keeping it doesn't help so much.
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: NORTHFIELD
Posts: 188
Wow do I feel you and get where you are coming from. Mine is much the same way. Wants no part of therapy, support groups, any of it.
Also he hates being the bad guy. So I've been appointed to the position, no matter what I do or how I react or don't.
I don't have an answer. (If you find one, please share!) What seems to be our biggest problems are not being on the same page at the same time. Hard to do, when emotions are in constant flux. It's hard when there is so much to have to talk about and you are so sick to death of the topic, because it only brings more misery.
I tried a tactic at one point, where we didn't discuss it. At All. That doesn't work either. Have you told him straight up that if he's not willing to discuss it with son that you don't want or need to hear about it? I get if he's stuffing it all down , and you are the only one that he opens up to, it puts you and your relationship in a Hard, hard spot. But, like you said, your time and energy has been directed at the hard work at hand, and you HAVE to take care of yourself too. Just know you're not alone. I swear talking about it helps, don't apologize, keeping it doesn't help so much.
Also he hates being the bad guy. So I've been appointed to the position, no matter what I do or how I react or don't.
I don't have an answer. (If you find one, please share!) What seems to be our biggest problems are not being on the same page at the same time. Hard to do, when emotions are in constant flux. It's hard when there is so much to have to talk about and you are so sick to death of the topic, because it only brings more misery.
I tried a tactic at one point, where we didn't discuss it. At All. That doesn't work either. Have you told him straight up that if he's not willing to discuss it with son that you don't want or need to hear about it? I get if he's stuffing it all down , and you are the only one that he opens up to, it puts you and your relationship in a Hard, hard spot. But, like you said, your time and energy has been directed at the hard work at hand, and you HAVE to take care of yourself too. Just know you're not alone. I swear talking about it helps, don't apologize, keeping it doesn't help so much.
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,698
Dear Good Karma, Look into the victim-rescuer-persecutor triangle. Its a classic representation of family dynamics. I myself am the rescuer, my recovering son is the victim and my husband is the persecutor. I find myself CONSTANTLY trying to keep peace and its exhausting to say the least. This is even in times of recovery, when it is "calm", yet my concerns and my enabling ways are always present. My son is 26, and I have enabled him for so long that I am afraid for his choices (all in my head!) and so I circumvent any "issues" he may face. this is my battle with myself. Hubby belittles son for not taking more initiative, and son looks the gift horse in the mouth for the most part.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
Last edited by Ilovemysonjj; 08-30-2016 at 11:08 AM. Reason: content added.
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Thanks. I'm seeing my therapist on Friday. I'm going to talk about this with her, and I'll share the responses I've gotten to discuss with her, too. I do think I'm going to tell my husband that I'm not going to be a go-between. It was the same when the kids were little: He was the FUN parent and I was the EAT YOUR VEGGIES/DO YOUR HOMEWORK parent. I know in my heart that I have "been there" for my son. I don't think I've enabled him. I think I have helped him. When your kid is writhing on the floor, having muscle twitches and vomiting, you HELP him find a detox... at that point he couldn't do it for himself, for instance. But he found his own IOP, and his own therapist. I didn't want him picking out a lawyer from the yellow pages, so I called our attorney (who does wills and estates and such) and got a recommendation that I gave to son. But he's had to figure out a lot of this on his own, not always making what I thought was the best choice, but I've bitten my tongue and he's found his own way.
Thanks for your responses. I went for a long walk and have calmed down considerably from the state I was in earlier today. I think I am going to start going to the studio near my work that has yoga and meditation. I don't know if I can contort my body for the yoga, but sitting on a mat through guided mediation sounds pretty darn blissful!
Thanks for your responses. I went for a long walk and have calmed down considerably from the state I was in earlier today. I think I am going to start going to the studio near my work that has yoga and meditation. I don't know if I can contort my body for the yoga, but sitting on a mat through guided mediation sounds pretty darn blissful!
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Jenna - I say this from a place of love, but what you described above is somewhere on the border between enabling and helping. However, I've been in similar situations that sat on the border, and I acted in the same manner. Today, I'm at a place where I would am able to admit that I'm possibly enabling my AS (addict sister) rather than see it as a shameful secret like I did at first. We do the best we can with what we've got, and family adds a whole other whack of emotions to that.
You hit the nail on the head with "it's life after rehab that he struggles with". You're right - there is no 'cure all'. There isn't a magic rehab. My dad had once told me, "Just quit the pills and you'll be fine!". I was a little upset when I realized this wasn't true lol, and that it wasn't the drugs that were my entire problem. I struggle with living life on life's terms.
Have you thought about inviting your husband to a Nar-Anon meeting? Even as I type that, I kind of giggled to myself because your hubby reminds me of my dad, and for him that's just a Nope situation. Although, saying 'Tell him yourself!' is big step in the right direction, I just wanted to say. It's setting boundaries, and taking yourself out of the middle. Job well done!
You hit the nail on the head with "it's life after rehab that he struggles with". You're right - there is no 'cure all'. There isn't a magic rehab. My dad had once told me, "Just quit the pills and you'll be fine!". I was a little upset when I realized this wasn't true lol, and that it wasn't the drugs that were my entire problem. I struggle with living life on life's terms.
Have you thought about inviting your husband to a Nar-Anon meeting? Even as I type that, I kind of giggled to myself because your hubby reminds me of my dad, and for him that's just a Nope situation. Although, saying 'Tell him yourself!' is big step in the right direction, I just wanted to say. It's setting boundaries, and taking yourself out of the middle. Job well done!
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When my son lived at home and we were going through the war zone effects of addiction living in the house, my husband and I didn't see eye to eye, but we didn't conflict either.
Mostly I went about my codependent ways, my son went about his addiction recovery/relapse ways and my husband worked a lot and didn't get in the way.
I realize now that my husband isn't codependent, not one bit, he accepted both my son's addiction and my insanity of codependency as "it is what it is" and could live his life well. If my son stole or raised his voice to my husband, it was a simple "you must leave now" and gone, with me it was painful negotiations and the pretzel dance trying to put things back together.
Thankfully, I found my meetings and my own program of recovery. When I knew better and found my balance, I did better. As I got better my son had less affect on the family unit and was no longer allowed to live at home (after he stole from us and stashed drugs there).
What I am trying to say is that what works for you may not be what works for your husband. It doesn't necessarily mean one is right and the other is wrong, it just means you see things differently.
In a perfect world, everyone would go to meetings and get better and live happily every after. In the real world, or at least in MY real world, I was the one who needed to find my own meetings and a healthier way to live.
I hope your family can get through this and find some happier days.
Hugs
Mostly I went about my codependent ways, my son went about his addiction recovery/relapse ways and my husband worked a lot and didn't get in the way.
I realize now that my husband isn't codependent, not one bit, he accepted both my son's addiction and my insanity of codependency as "it is what it is" and could live his life well. If my son stole or raised his voice to my husband, it was a simple "you must leave now" and gone, with me it was painful negotiations and the pretzel dance trying to put things back together.
Thankfully, I found my meetings and my own program of recovery. When I knew better and found my balance, I did better. As I got better my son had less affect on the family unit and was no longer allowed to live at home (after he stole from us and stashed drugs there).
What I am trying to say is that what works for you may not be what works for your husband. It doesn't necessarily mean one is right and the other is wrong, it just means you see things differently.
In a perfect world, everyone would go to meetings and get better and live happily every after. In the real world, or at least in MY real world, I was the one who needed to find my own meetings and a healthier way to live.
I hope your family can get through this and find some happier days.
Hugs
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Join Date: May 2016
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I'm sorry that I just don't understand some of the responses. HOW am I enabling? If your own child is in extreme physical pain from withdrawing, and is saying" I need to go to the hospital I need a hospital please help me" What do you do? Say "oops sorry, no, that would make me a codependent disabler"? If he's in legal trouble and needs an attorney do you stand by and watch him pick some loser out of the phone book or do you ask an attorney you know and trust, but with expertise in a different type of practice, for a recommendation? If I knew someone getting a divorce, I'd ask my attorney to recommend someone with a great reputation in that field. It's ok to help a divorcing friend but not an addict to find good legal representation? I don't understand.
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Join Date: Oct 2011
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being an enabler is also an internal dialogue which always includes me as part of the solution. I am "enabling" my son with my thoughts and that I feel obligated and almost compelled to heal him from addiction using my practical means. I don't always rescue and of course, taking your son to the hospital and getting a good lawyer is fine. its the way that I think about my son and that I always am worried about his choices, his logic, his demeanor, etc. Its that I make excuses for him to my husband and his brother and sister.
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Jenna. I'm going to go back to your original post. My post back to you said I was much in the same situation. There was NO WAY my husband would go to therapy, with me or alone, no way, no how.
Well in the last week, he walked out on me. Due to addiction of his grown son and the havoc it caused. And you know what, I threw it out there one more time, with no hope but as a last ditch effort, and he agreed! You could have knocked me over! HE agreed to go? Total turn around from the past 10 years. Now, I haven't made an appointment yet, I'm going to try someone who specializes in family addiction and hope for the best.
I just want you to know, that things can change dramatically in the short span of a week. Hang tough. He may get there, in the blink of an eye, with out you doing any convincing. I don't think there is anything I could ever had said to change my husbands mind. He had to get there on his own.
Well in the last week, he walked out on me. Due to addiction of his grown son and the havoc it caused. And you know what, I threw it out there one more time, with no hope but as a last ditch effort, and he agreed! You could have knocked me over! HE agreed to go? Total turn around from the past 10 years. Now, I haven't made an appointment yet, I'm going to try someone who specializes in family addiction and hope for the best.
I just want you to know, that things can change dramatically in the short span of a week. Hang tough. He may get there, in the blink of an eye, with out you doing any convincing. I don't think there is anything I could ever had said to change my husbands mind. He had to get there on his own.
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My husband will act like they're "besties" if they have a cigar together or go fishing together, but then as soon as he sees anything he doesn't like, he tells me about it "when son comes home, tell him....."
NO! YOU TELL HIM.
NO! YOU TELL HIM.
He was also so worried about her that he would call me at work on a daily basis and say "Tell your sister this. Tell her that. Ask her if..." And after a month of this I started getting angry. And also really embarrassed because I was working in a cube farm and everybody could hear my conversations. And so one day I lost it. He asked me for the umpteenth time and I finally had the gumption to say to him if he was that concerned about her, he knew how to reach her and he could call her directly himself.
The kicker: the person in the cubicle next to me actually started CLAPPING. But by then I was so ticked off I didn't even care.
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