OT The maddening non-alcoholic f u signals
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OT The maddening non-alcoholic f u signals
I had determined that I wouldn't come back here and vent like a broken record, but I really need to vent, and this is not REALLY to do with alcoholism (although it is probably related somehow)
Between 2000-2004, AH was sober, and for two of those years he had also beaten smoking. It was GREAT being in a smoke-free environment. I had never really had one before--my mother smoked Pall Malls constantly, and it never occurred to me to restrict anyone's smoking in the house, because people smoked wherever and whenever back then.
So when he relapsed with drinking, it was not long afterwards that he went back to smoking--but not cigarettes--he now smokes those little cigars. I told him firmly that he could only smoke in his home office or outside.
I don't have many "rules" and I should probably have more rules where he is concerned, but this is the one rule that I feel is easy to comply with. Just don't smoke in the house.
But he seemingly can't, or won't, do it. I was away on business for a few days, and I came home. He's been detoxing after vacation and has been stone cold sober, so I can't even blame it on his being drunk. I went into my home office to do an interview (I'm a market researcher), but the call was rescheduled, so I came out earlier than expected, and he was smoking in the living room. He tried to cover it up, but couldn't.
If that was an odd occasion, OK. But I know he sneaks smokes. I spent $3000 recently painting his mother's house so we could sell it, and the next DAY I caught him smoking in the freshly painted house and I went berserk.
My issue is, this is not a "disease" that he is powerless over, unless the disease is the "F.U." disease. He willingly chooses to blatantly disregard a simple, and important request of mine. To me, it just feels like a symbol of how he regards our marriage. Or rather, disregards it. I am so frustrated about it, because now it's clear to me that I either have to accept it or deal with it another way.
What boundaries can I put in place now? The only one I can see is, "if you continue to disregard my wish, which is clearly an important one for me," I have no choice but to move to a smoke-free place, or ask you to move to a place where you can freely smoke." Or am I making too much of this (I don't think so, personally, because I'm tired of being The
Accommodator).
Thanks for letting me vent.
Between 2000-2004, AH was sober, and for two of those years he had also beaten smoking. It was GREAT being in a smoke-free environment. I had never really had one before--my mother smoked Pall Malls constantly, and it never occurred to me to restrict anyone's smoking in the house, because people smoked wherever and whenever back then.
So when he relapsed with drinking, it was not long afterwards that he went back to smoking--but not cigarettes--he now smokes those little cigars. I told him firmly that he could only smoke in his home office or outside.
I don't have many "rules" and I should probably have more rules where he is concerned, but this is the one rule that I feel is easy to comply with. Just don't smoke in the house.
But he seemingly can't, or won't, do it. I was away on business for a few days, and I came home. He's been detoxing after vacation and has been stone cold sober, so I can't even blame it on his being drunk. I went into my home office to do an interview (I'm a market researcher), but the call was rescheduled, so I came out earlier than expected, and he was smoking in the living room. He tried to cover it up, but couldn't.
If that was an odd occasion, OK. But I know he sneaks smokes. I spent $3000 recently painting his mother's house so we could sell it, and the next DAY I caught him smoking in the freshly painted house and I went berserk.
My issue is, this is not a "disease" that he is powerless over, unless the disease is the "F.U." disease. He willingly chooses to blatantly disregard a simple, and important request of mine. To me, it just feels like a symbol of how he regards our marriage. Or rather, disregards it. I am so frustrated about it, because now it's clear to me that I either have to accept it or deal with it another way.
What boundaries can I put in place now? The only one I can see is, "if you continue to disregard my wish, which is clearly an important one for me," I have no choice but to move to a smoke-free place, or ask you to move to a place where you can freely smoke." Or am I making too much of this (I don't think so, personally, because I'm tired of being The
Accommodator).
Thanks for letting me vent.
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I do not think you are making too much of this. If being able to smoke wherever he likes is more important than your comfort in your own home, then he is making a very clear statement about his level of respect for you and your partnership.
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Yeah, I smoked for 22 years and could never justify smoking in someones home or car that did not smoke...hell, i've never smoked in my OWN home because it's so gross!
It is very disrespectful and I think you have every right to ask him to get his own place so he can smoke, or go get your own place for some fresh air.
It is very disrespectful and I think you have every right to ask him to get his own place so he can smoke, or go get your own place for some fresh air.
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I guess I see this as just one more way you're being disrespected. It's up to you how much of a deal-breaker this is for you--seems to me that the other stuff is an even BIGGER deal, but most of us reach our limit sooner or later. Heck, I kicked out the last guy I lived with on a moment's notice because I discovered he'd been lying to me about his age for the past five years. Now, that was hardly a momentous issue, but it represented a lot of the other lies he had told me over the years, and I had, quite simply, had enough.
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SoloMio....you ask us if you are "making too much of this"....and you say that "Personally, I don't think so"........
Lol....now, I will ask you....what does it matter what WE think...? We don't live in your skin....you do. You don't need others to validate your opinions if you are confident in yourself.
Every single one of us are different in what we will tolerate in another person..
I think that few of us would match up, exactly....
for example, I had a friend whose husband started sleeping in the nude...and she was very upset that he didn't respect her need for "sanitation" and moved to a separate bedroom. When she shared this with me...I told her that I slept, most of the time...especially summer...in the nude and so did my husband, a lot of the time.
She was flabbergasted at that.
On the other hand...I would never date men who disparaged cats. And, I could never get turned on by a man who chewed with his mouth open.....
So, there you go...individual differences..
I was a smoker for many, many years. I just assumed that the guys who didn't approve of it just didn't ask me out. and, I didn't blame them...it was their choice... again--individual differences.
I will say that I'll bet the kid's milk money that there is an even deeper issue below the surface of this issue for you,,,besides the smoking, itself....
The reason I say this is that you married him knowing that he was a smoker and tolerated it for several years....
But, the choice is yours, as I see it....
If it is a deal breaker for you...then it is a deal breaker....
dandylion
LOl...I don't know if this helps...it is just my take on it...
Lol....now, I will ask you....what does it matter what WE think...? We don't live in your skin....you do. You don't need others to validate your opinions if you are confident in yourself.
Every single one of us are different in what we will tolerate in another person..
I think that few of us would match up, exactly....
for example, I had a friend whose husband started sleeping in the nude...and she was very upset that he didn't respect her need for "sanitation" and moved to a separate bedroom. When she shared this with me...I told her that I slept, most of the time...especially summer...in the nude and so did my husband, a lot of the time.
She was flabbergasted at that.
On the other hand...I would never date men who disparaged cats. And, I could never get turned on by a man who chewed with his mouth open.....
So, there you go...individual differences..
I was a smoker for many, many years. I just assumed that the guys who didn't approve of it just didn't ask me out. and, I didn't blame them...it was their choice... again--individual differences.
I will say that I'll bet the kid's milk money that there is an even deeper issue below the surface of this issue for you,,,besides the smoking, itself....
The reason I say this is that you married him knowing that he was a smoker and tolerated it for several years....
But, the choice is yours, as I see it....
If it is a deal breaker for you...then it is a deal breaker....
dandylion
LOl...I don't know if this helps...it is just my take on it...
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I have had this exact same issue and I have to say it is totally disrespectful. There is no other word to describe it than that.
My AH had started "vaping" and I was shocked by the high level of exhaust fumes it left behind lingering in the air. It did not seem one bit different to me than cigarette smoke and I noticed when he vaped around me my asthma would flare up and I would get a tickle in my chest. I asked him to simply NOT do that in the room myself or the children were in. I had just gotten done fighting a very nasty pneumonia and my lungs were fragile (They've always been with the asthma and growing up with two smoking parents and zero ventilation). I kept noticing that the tickle would remain but coudlnt' figure why.
One very early morning (This is when he was doing a nite shift and got home around 5 am when it was still dark) he was on the couch with me as I drank my mornign coffee when I Noticed the blue light shining - he was actually trying to cup the light in his hand so I wouldn't see it. He was sneaking it right next to me!!! Absolutely awful. That is totally disrespectful behavior. Rude, rude, rude!
I refuse to be treated like that anymore. I'd rather live alone than have someone treat me like that.
My AH had started "vaping" and I was shocked by the high level of exhaust fumes it left behind lingering in the air. It did not seem one bit different to me than cigarette smoke and I noticed when he vaped around me my asthma would flare up and I would get a tickle in my chest. I asked him to simply NOT do that in the room myself or the children were in. I had just gotten done fighting a very nasty pneumonia and my lungs were fragile (They've always been with the asthma and growing up with two smoking parents and zero ventilation). I kept noticing that the tickle would remain but coudlnt' figure why.
One very early morning (This is when he was doing a nite shift and got home around 5 am when it was still dark) he was on the couch with me as I drank my mornign coffee when I Noticed the blue light shining - he was actually trying to cup the light in his hand so I wouldn't see it. He was sneaking it right next to me!!! Absolutely awful. That is totally disrespectful behavior. Rude, rude, rude!
I refuse to be treated like that anymore. I'd rather live alone than have someone treat me like that.
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It is def related to drinking..
Active alcoholics are selfish and they are sneaky. They put their own WANT over the NEED of others. It's just what they do. I am an alcoholic but sober and working on a daily program of recovery. The levels of my selfishness and ego-driven dishonesty while I was still drinking (and also while I was sober but not in recovery) never fail to shock and disgust me now.
Chances of his behaviour changing while not in recovery are very, very remote.
Active alcoholics are selfish and they are sneaky. They put their own WANT over the NEED of others. It's just what they do. I am an alcoholic but sober and working on a daily program of recovery. The levels of my selfishness and ego-driven dishonesty while I was still drinking (and also while I was sober but not in recovery) never fail to shock and disgust me now.
Chances of his behaviour changing while not in recovery are very, very remote.
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Thanks for the thoughts and experiences..
Dandylion, yes, I tolerated it for several years, but again, that's because I didn't know what I didn't know--which is, living in a smoke-free environment is REALLY nice. I didn't know until 2002 that my kids' clothes stunk, the house stunk, and that the tan cast on the walls and furniture was nicotine.
We painted our ceilings after he stopped smoking, and we were totally surprised that it was hard to tell what part of the ceiling was painted and which part wasn't because our whole lives, we would repaint a ceiling that had turned tan from the smoking.
Once I had been liberated from all that, I saw smoking in the house completely differently. So, I never want to go back. The "other issue" is really the "f u" issue--no matter whether it's smoking or putting feet on the furniture, or whatever my issue might be, it comes down to, "if I ask VERY LITTLE of you in life and in our relationship, can't you SIMPLY comply with this ONE thing?? If you can't, I feel you don't give a rat's a$$ about me or my needs."
That's the bottom line.
Dandylion, yes, I tolerated it for several years, but again, that's because I didn't know what I didn't know--which is, living in a smoke-free environment is REALLY nice. I didn't know until 2002 that my kids' clothes stunk, the house stunk, and that the tan cast on the walls and furniture was nicotine.
We painted our ceilings after he stopped smoking, and we were totally surprised that it was hard to tell what part of the ceiling was painted and which part wasn't because our whole lives, we would repaint a ceiling that had turned tan from the smoking.
Once I had been liberated from all that, I saw smoking in the house completely differently. So, I never want to go back. The "other issue" is really the "f u" issue--no matter whether it's smoking or putting feet on the furniture, or whatever my issue might be, it comes down to, "if I ask VERY LITTLE of you in life and in our relationship, can't you SIMPLY comply with this ONE thing?? If you can't, I feel you don't give a rat's a$$ about me or my needs."
That's the bottom line.
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SoloMio.....even though I smoked like a smokestack for years....I totally get what you are saying about the smokefree environment...especially the smells.
When I was smoking....I couldn't smell a thing! It was a complete surprise, to me, to find out, after I quit....the same thing that you said...!
It sound pretty confident in your position on this...
I think that you have, maybe, identified an important issue in your marriage.....you even wrote it in caps....."VERY LITTLE"......lol....
Do I hear you saying that you feel your relationship is very lopsided.....with you getting the short end of the stick, in the big picture...that you don't feel that it hasn't been equitable....?
dandylion
When I was smoking....I couldn't smell a thing! It was a complete surprise, to me, to find out, after I quit....the same thing that you said...!
It sound pretty confident in your position on this...
I think that you have, maybe, identified an important issue in your marriage.....you even wrote it in caps....."VERY LITTLE"......lol....
Do I hear you saying that you feel your relationship is very lopsided.....with you getting the short end of the stick, in the big picture...that you don't feel that it hasn't been equitable....?
dandylion
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It is blantant disregard for your request and your health. Having
worked in a prestigious cancer center, the danger of second hand
smoke was right up there with smoking, always in the equation.
He has the right to smoke & damage his health, and you have the right
to not be exposed, whatever that takes.
CDC - Fact Sheet - Secondhand Smoke Facts - Smoking & Tobacco Use
worked in a prestigious cancer center, the danger of second hand
smoke was right up there with smoking, always in the equation.
He has the right to smoke & damage his health, and you have the right
to not be exposed, whatever that takes.
CDC - Fact Sheet - Secondhand Smoke Facts - Smoking & Tobacco Use
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Originally Posted by dandylion 
I think that you have, maybe, identified an important issue in your marriage.....you even wrote it in caps....."VERY LITTLE"......lol....
Do I hear you saying that you feel your relationship is very lopsided.....with you getting the short end of the stick, in the big picture...that you don't feel that it hasn't been equitable....?
dandylion
Do I hear you saying that you feel your relationship is very lopsided.....with you getting the short end of the stick, in the big picture...that you don't feel that it hasn't been equitable....?
dandylion
I don't ask him to stop drinking. I don't ask him to stop smoking. I respect his right to run (or ruin) his own life. I have few expectations.
Since his drinking has progressed, he lost his business, his income, his bank account, his ability to choose clean clothes to wear, his ability to have any kind of a conversation before 10am or after 11am.
So a lot of you guys are now scratching your heads as to what exactly I get out of this relationship? The answer is twofold:
a) Believe it or not, he still provides companionship. He's not mean or abusive. We have things in common that we enjoy. We have a family and social circle in common. (Although his end of that social circle is getting smaller and smaller). He cooks dinner and while dinners cooked while drunk are hit or miss, they're still pretty good.
b) I still have a sense of obligation and duty. I know it sounds crazy, but I was watching A Beautiful Mind the other day, and I almost see him the same way as if he were schizophrenic, and I identify with Nash's wife as portrayed in the movie. And it's almost getting worse at this point, because we have been married almost 40 years, and his alcoholism is getting so bad that I don't know if we'll see another couple of years together. I travel for business, which makes it easy for me to detach. I visit family alone, visit friends alone, go to weddings alone, and that's OK with me.
What's not OK is a character defect of pure selfishness, and occasionally, when I've had enough, I blow up, like I did yesterday.
So when I said I ask for very little, I do ask for very little, by choice and temperament. I think my stoic, Puritanical, Yankee stock made me a woman with a pioneer spirit.. taking in stride the care of a bird with a broken wing.
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Solo---I feel compelled to share some trivia with you....because your "Puritan" comment brought it back to my mind.....
In a course on Family and Marriage, that I took, one time....there was a section on the influence of various religions o n Family and Marriage....
The author made the comment...."For Puritans, it seems that there was a consuming fear that SOMEONE--SOMEWHERE might be having fun".....
LOL....I nearly laughed my ring off!!
(please don't take this the wrong way....I am just having some light hearted fun...and, I thought you might think it was funny, too)....
I was raised in a culture that was heavily influenced by Germanic work ethic....
As a child, growing up under this stern ethic...I often asked myself..."WTF?"
In a course on Family and Marriage, that I took, one time....there was a section on the influence of various religions o n Family and Marriage....
The author made the comment...."For Puritans, it seems that there was a consuming fear that SOMEONE--SOMEWHERE might be having fun".....
LOL....I nearly laughed my ring off!!
(please don't take this the wrong way....I am just having some light hearted fun...and, I thought you might think it was funny, too)....
I was raised in a culture that was heavily influenced by Germanic work ethic....
As a child, growing up under this stern ethic...I often asked myself..."WTF?"
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Originally Posted by dandylion
Solo---I feel compelled to share some trivia with you....because your "Puritan" comment brought it back to my mind.....
In a course on Family and Marriage, that I took, one time....there was a section on the influence of various religions o n Family and Marriage....
The author made the comment...."For Puritans, it seems that there was a consuming fear that SOMEONE--SOMEWHERE might be having fun".....
LOL....I nearly laughed my ring off!!
(please don't take this the wrong way....I am just having some light hearted fun...and, I thought you might think it was funny, too)....
I was raised in a culture that was heavily influenced by Germanic work ethic....
As a child, growing up under this stern ethic...I often asked myself..."WTF?"
In a course on Family and Marriage, that I took, one time....there was a section on the influence of various religions o n Family and Marriage....
The author made the comment...."For Puritans, it seems that there was a consuming fear that SOMEONE--SOMEWHERE might be having fun".....
LOL....I nearly laughed my ring off!!
(please don't take this the wrong way....I am just having some light hearted fun...and, I thought you might think it was funny, too)....
I was raised in a culture that was heavily influenced by Germanic work ethic....
As a child, growing up under this stern ethic...I often asked myself..."WTF?"
Haha..! That's great.
Well, here's a little of my family history. My 10th great-grandmother's daughter was accused of being a witch during the Salem witch trial and my great-grandmother took the heat for her, and wound up dying in prison waiting for the trial at age 72.
Hmm..
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Oh, Solo.....that hits with a lot of impact!! It actually makes me want to cry......
That is a testimony of to a mother's love. I think you can feel very proud of your great grandmother......
***I think that when we are yearning for "the good old days" (which I am guilty of).....we might be careful to take full stock of what we are yearning for......
(You too, Honeypig)...
dandylion
That is a testimony of to a mother's love. I think you can feel very proud of your great grandmother......
***I think that when we are yearning for "the good old days" (which I am guilty of).....we might be careful to take full stock of what we are yearning for......
(You too, Honeypig)...
dandylion
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Originally Posted by dandylion
***I think that when we are yearning for "the good old days" (which I am guilty of).....we might be careful to take full stock of what we are yearning for......(You too, Honeypig)...
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Solo, XAH hid his cigarette smoking from me for nearly the entire time we were married. We both smoked when we met, and shortly after we got married, he mentioned that a couple friends of ours were quitting and maybe we should quit, too. I said sure, let's do it and proceeded to really quit. He claimed to, even joined me in talking about the difficulties he encountered, but did not quit.
Over the ensuing 19 years, he carefully hid his smoking. Every few years, he'd get busted, having left a pack on the kitchen table or the like. I believed him each time he said he had quit. He even jumped thru the hoops of nicotine patches and bupropion on one attempt.
After we split up, he told me that hiding his smoking was some kind of thrill for him. We had an elliptical, which we kept in the upper unit of the house, which is also where he had his airplane modeling studio and where he drank. On occasion, I'd go up there and use the elliptical while he was modeling. He told me "I'd go and smoke in the back room right while you were up there on the elliptical!" as if this was some daring feat.
During the first summer I knew about the drinking/smoking, he went to meetings and would make a point of telling me about how "someone" he'd talked to at the meeting had remarked on "what a stupid bitch" I was to not have realized that he was drinking and smoking and financing it all out of our savings while I worked OT or a 2nd job. I'm relatively sure there was no "someone"; passive/aggressive is a way of life for him and this was his way of calling me a stupid bitch but w/o any risk to him b/c after all, he didn't say it to me, "someone" said it about me.
Even last summer, when we were divorced but he was still living in the upper unit, I had bought him a little mobile Bluetooth speaker so he could listen to music but NOT use his big stereo--using the stereo meant I listened to that same music, too, since he had to turn it up to hear it in his model-building room. I had to ask him to please NOT use the stereo repeatedly before he finally decided he'd abide by my wishes. He didn't even make a claim that he "forgot"--he was pretty blatant about doing it just b/c he felt like it and didn't much care what I wanted.
So I'd say, in this case, there was a LOT of f u going on. Don't know if any of this is helpful to you or not, but wanted to let you know I've had similar experiences to yours.
Over the ensuing 19 years, he carefully hid his smoking. Every few years, he'd get busted, having left a pack on the kitchen table or the like. I believed him each time he said he had quit. He even jumped thru the hoops of nicotine patches and bupropion on one attempt.
After we split up, he told me that hiding his smoking was some kind of thrill for him. We had an elliptical, which we kept in the upper unit of the house, which is also where he had his airplane modeling studio and where he drank. On occasion, I'd go up there and use the elliptical while he was modeling. He told me "I'd go and smoke in the back room right while you were up there on the elliptical!" as if this was some daring feat.
During the first summer I knew about the drinking/smoking, he went to meetings and would make a point of telling me about how "someone" he'd talked to at the meeting had remarked on "what a stupid bitch" I was to not have realized that he was drinking and smoking and financing it all out of our savings while I worked OT or a 2nd job. I'm relatively sure there was no "someone"; passive/aggressive is a way of life for him and this was his way of calling me a stupid bitch but w/o any risk to him b/c after all, he didn't say it to me, "someone" said it about me.
Even last summer, when we were divorced but he was still living in the upper unit, I had bought him a little mobile Bluetooth speaker so he could listen to music but NOT use his big stereo--using the stereo meant I listened to that same music, too, since he had to turn it up to hear it in his model-building room. I had to ask him to please NOT use the stereo repeatedly before he finally decided he'd abide by my wishes. He didn't even make a claim that he "forgot"--he was pretty blatant about doing it just b/c he felt like it and didn't much care what I wanted.
So I'd say, in this case, there was a LOT of f u going on. Don't know if any of this is helpful to you or not, but wanted to let you know I've had similar experiences to yours.
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