Is (voluntary) alcoholism bad karma?
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Is (voluntary) alcoholism bad karma?
Now, please don't get me wrong. I am not going dwell into the topic of religion.
But it would be safe to assume that most of us here are aware of what 'karma' is. Some of you may believe in it, others not so much. And that's fine.
Now, the basic principle of karma says that you should treat others the way you wish to be treated in return.
And for many of us, who may or may not have a physical / mental addiction, do tend to drown our sorrows using the bottle.
But going back to my previous statement "the way you wish to be treated in return", I often wonder if what we are doing is even karmically correct, so to speak.
So let's imagine a hypothetical situation in which a close one is suffering, would it be be right, or wrong, to advise them to drink?
That further begs the question, when we are in crisis, would it be karmically correct for us to "prescribe" alcohol to ourselves as a remedy?
I would love your insights.
But it would be safe to assume that most of us here are aware of what 'karma' is. Some of you may believe in it, others not so much. And that's fine.
Now, the basic principle of karma says that you should treat others the way you wish to be treated in return.
And for many of us, who may or may not have a physical / mental addiction, do tend to drown our sorrows using the bottle.
But going back to my previous statement "the way you wish to be treated in return", I often wonder if what we are doing is even karmically correct, so to speak.
So let's imagine a hypothetical situation in which a close one is suffering, would it be be right, or wrong, to advise them to drink?
That further begs the question, when we are in crisis, would it be karmically correct for us to "prescribe" alcohol to ourselves as a remedy?
I would love your insights.
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 130
My initial reaction is that I would want to advise a loved one, and myself, to do something to ease the suffering and crisis. And alcohol doesn't have any chance to do that. It is a depressant as a substance, so will escalate any suffering or crisis. It makes rational thought and planning impossible, so in the end you have two problems instead of the original. On top of that baseline, when drinking it is possible to say and do some pretty awful, or best case, insensitive things, and that could make someone's suffering even worse.
Bottom line, I want my karma to be bringing positivity to the world. In no way is that going to happen if I am drinking or being an enabler to others.
Bottom line, I want my karma to be bringing positivity to the world. In no way is that going to happen if I am drinking or being an enabler to others.
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Originally Posted by amyrose 
My initial reaction is that I would want to advise a loved one, and myself, to do something to ease the suffering and crisis. And alcohol doesn't have any chance to do that. It is a depressant as a substance, so will escalate any suffering or crisis. It makes rational thought and planning impossible, so in the end you have two problems instead of the original. On top of that baseline, when drinking it is possible to say and do some pretty awful, or best case, insensitive things, and that could make someone's suffering even worse.
Bottom line, I want my karma to be bringing positivity to the world. In no way is that going to happen if I am drinking or being an enabler to others.
Bottom line, I want my karma to be bringing positivity to the world. In no way is that going to happen if I am drinking or being an enabler to others.
But would you agree that there do arise some undesirable situations in one's life, where alcohol would, let's say, "numb" the immediate mental response to that particular situation?
I've dealt with several deaths within my family, and in the aftermath of each, alcohol was definitely consumed by myself and by other members of the family. They claim it helped them through the process. Mind you, they are/were never alcoholics.
Superb explanation, nevertheless!
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 130
I agree completely that sometimes the numb feeling is desirable, and for those who aren't alcoholics, I don't have any issue with that as a coping method because they won't destroy their lives and the lives of others as a result.
I have lost my father (alcoholism), brother (brain cancer at 46) and have a disabled sister (cancer again when she was 3), all of which have created so much sorrow, guilt (why didn't I get cancer) and pain. And I drank during a lot of that. Didn't bring anyone back. Didn't make the hospital decisions easier. Would I drink again in the same circumstance...maybe. But now I am armed with so many better ways and I know that the "numb" feeling isn't something I reserve for crisis, it's what I wanted alcohol to do all the time.
Bottom line, I can drink because I create a crisis (and I can easily provide a justification) or I can decide to try something else that can actually help me and my family in crisis by being present and not numb.
I have lost my father (alcoholism), brother (brain cancer at 46) and have a disabled sister (cancer again when she was 3), all of which have created so much sorrow, guilt (why didn't I get cancer) and pain. And I drank during a lot of that. Didn't bring anyone back. Didn't make the hospital decisions easier. Would I drink again in the same circumstance...maybe. But now I am armed with so many better ways and I know that the "numb" feeling isn't something I reserve for crisis, it's what I wanted alcohol to do all the time.
Bottom line, I can drink because I create a crisis (and I can easily provide a justification) or I can decide to try something else that can actually help me and my family in crisis by being present and not numb.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pacific Coast
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I think passing along the superior coping skills we learn in recovery would have far better results -- both in the moment and "karmically" -- than ever prescribing alcohol as any kind of remedy.
I can't quite think of why a sobriety support website is an appropriate place to discuss possible benefits of alcohol use in any way.
I can't quite think of why a sobriety support website is an appropriate place to discuss possible benefits of alcohol use in any way.
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Posts: 89
Originally Posted by amyrose
I agree completely that sometimes the numb feeling is desirable, and for those who aren't alcoholics, I don't have any issue with that as a coping method because they won't destroy their lives and the lives of others as a result.
I have lost my father (alcoholism), brother (brain cancer at 46) and have a disabled sister (cancer again when she was 3), all of which have created so much sorrow, guilt (why didn't I get cancer) and pain. And I drank during a lot of that. Didn't bring anyone back. Didn't make the hospital decisions easier. Would I drink again in the same circumstance...maybe. But now I am armed with so many better ways and I know that the "numb" feeling isn't something I reserve for crisis, it's what I wanted alcohol to do all the time.
Bottom line, I can drink because I create a crisis (and I can easily provide a justification) or I can decide to try something else that can actually help me and my family in crisis by being present and not numb.
I have lost my father (alcoholism), brother (brain cancer at 46) and have a disabled sister (cancer again when she was 3), all of which have created so much sorrow, guilt (why didn't I get cancer) and pain. And I drank during a lot of that. Didn't bring anyone back. Didn't make the hospital decisions easier. Would I drink again in the same circumstance...maybe. But now I am armed with so many better ways and I know that the "numb" feeling isn't something I reserve for crisis, it's what I wanted alcohol to do all the time.
Bottom line, I can drink because I create a crisis (and I can easily provide a justification) or I can decide to try something else that can actually help me and my family in crisis by being present and not numb.
I too have lost my father to alcoholism.
I think it is brave of you to venture into alternatives to drinking, which, may I have the liberty to say, most don't.
I wish you all the best, Amy.
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Yes, I think drinking brings bad karma, whether it's to myself or anyone else. 
And no, I would never advise someone to drink to blunt their feelings. Feelings are meant to be felt. To numb them only prolongs the pain.
And no, I would never advise someone to drink to blunt their feelings. Feelings are meant to be felt. To numb them only prolongs the pain. Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: New York, NY
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Originally Posted by Andante
I can't quite think of why a sobriety support website is an appropriate place to discuss possible benefits of alcohol use in any way.
Do your best
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 67,047
Not my monkeys not my circus but I wouldn't encourage anyone to drink as much as I wouldn't encourage someone to do drugs
The bit where you say prescribe sounds very self medicating wouldn't you say
I'm a massive believer in karma but this sounds more like AV it comes in many diffrent shapes & forms
The bit where you say prescribe sounds very self medicating wouldn't you say
I'm a massive believer in karma but this sounds more like AV it comes in many diffrent shapes & forms
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 8,614
"Without self compassion, there can be no compassion"... I heard this years ago, maybe a dalai llama said it, or maybe a speaker at a zen temple. I don't recall. But it stuck with me.
There is no self compassion in alcoholism. There is no compassion in advising someone to drink. It promotes escapism which is against the Buddhist idea. Buddhism is from my experience and gleanings all about the realities of life and being fully present for them all. Drinking obviously contradicts this entirely.
This is a good example as well:
"It is also against the precepts to take intoxicants.
In the ´70s, when we wandered up the hill to Kopan Monastery in Nepal in various states of drug- and alcohol-induced intoxication, we would ask Lama Yeshe, “What do you think about drugs, alcohol, and meditation? They make us more relaxed so it’s easier to watch our breath, and our visualizations are so much more vivid when we’re stoned.”
Lama, looking at us with an expression that was quizzically serious, would say, “You don’t need drugs, dear. You’re already hallucinating.”
Then, when we stopped laughing, he explained that intoxicants and meditation don’t go together. “Intoxicants take you away from reality; meditation takes you toward reality. Which do you want? You are already intoxicated by ignorance, anger, and attachment and suffer as a result. Why do you want to take more intoxicants?” "
—Bhikshuni Thubten Chodron author, Tibetan Buddhist nun, and founder of Sravasti Avvey
And just my own note... don't worry about fulfilling negative karmic balances by your own hand.... they will catch up with you anyway!
There is no self compassion in alcoholism. There is no compassion in advising someone to drink. It promotes escapism which is against the Buddhist idea. Buddhism is from my experience and gleanings all about the realities of life and being fully present for them all. Drinking obviously contradicts this entirely.
This is a good example as well:
"It is also against the precepts to take intoxicants.
In the ´70s, when we wandered up the hill to Kopan Monastery in Nepal in various states of drug- and alcohol-induced intoxication, we would ask Lama Yeshe, “What do you think about drugs, alcohol, and meditation? They make us more relaxed so it’s easier to watch our breath, and our visualizations are so much more vivid when we’re stoned.”
Lama, looking at us with an expression that was quizzically serious, would say, “You don’t need drugs, dear. You’re already hallucinating.”
Then, when we stopped laughing, he explained that intoxicants and meditation don’t go together. “Intoxicants take you away from reality; meditation takes you toward reality. Which do you want? You are already intoxicated by ignorance, anger, and attachment and suffer as a result. Why do you want to take more intoxicants?” "
—Bhikshuni Thubten Chodron author, Tibetan Buddhist nun, and founder of Sravasti Avvey
And just my own note... don't worry about fulfilling negative karmic balances by your own hand.... they will catch up with you anyway!
Alive in the Superunknown
Join Date: Nov 2010
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The only karma ever delivered to me as a result of giving in to my urge to drink has been overwhelmingly negative. Why would I want to deliver that to someone I ostensibly love?
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by soberaccountant
On February 12, 2016 I was arrested for DUI. My life has been forever changed by the experience, an experience I do not even remember committing. Not that it serves as any excuse, for I accept responsibility for my actions. I thank God that I did not hurt anyone, myself, nor cause damage to anybody's property or mine.
I have been going to A.A. ever since I was released from jail 12 hours later. I was released on my own recognizance, and I have my court date on April 19th. I was beginning to accept everything that was going on and preparing myself for my day in court. Not that I was going to fight it, I am guilty and will spend the rest of my life making amends for this. I was finally starting to see this as a second chance in life. I was finally starting to have hope for my situation--until yesterday.
You see currently I have been working as a paid intern as a staff accountant. I was finally starting to get my career back on track. I was promised this internship would lead to something permanent if I worked hard and stayed committed to the job. Yesterday, however, I was pulled in by my teary-eyed supervisor who told me that all of us interns and temporary workers are to be laid off at the end of April, my last day will be the 27th. My world just fell apart. Not only am I going to be a criminal with this DUI in California, I am also going to be once again unemployed. I had already gone through two prior layoffs within the last two years, and I was not prepared for this one to happen to me.
Now I face the prospects of having to find a job with a criminal record soon to come. I am sure my arrest is already a part of my background, and come April 19th I will be convicted. I have a bachelors degree in accounting, I have worked many jobs in the finance and accounting field, and I was finally starting to get somewhere...but now this, all of this. I don't know what to do anymore. I am afraid this misdemeanor is going to make me unemployable, or that my only prospects will be low-level jobs that I worked so hard to move up from.
My drinking problems started back in September 2015 after having been laid off in June 2015, going through more than 10 interviews only to be rejected over and over again. I drank to cope, the wrong thing to do, but I had no one to talk to. I know it is stupid to use a depressant to deal with depression but stupid is as stupid does, and its what I did. I admit I am stupid. I also admit that I planned to put an end to my life, not only because of the job issues but everything else that had piled on over the years --I was finished with it all. When I got out of jail I made the choice that if I wasn't going to live for myself than I was going to live for my family and friends. I know ending my life would make them suffer the most, and that is just not fair to them.
I don't know if anyone has been through what I been through, but if you have it would help to hear your story and how you overcame this. I don't want this to be the end of my career, and I don't want this to be the end of my life. I guess one question I also have is while I know that this misdemeanor and arrest will come up in backgrounds, have you had difficulty in finding work because of it?
I have been going to A.A. ever since I was released from jail 12 hours later. I was released on my own recognizance, and I have my court date on April 19th. I was beginning to accept everything that was going on and preparing myself for my day in court. Not that I was going to fight it, I am guilty and will spend the rest of my life making amends for this. I was finally starting to see this as a second chance in life. I was finally starting to have hope for my situation--until yesterday.
You see currently I have been working as a paid intern as a staff accountant. I was finally starting to get my career back on track. I was promised this internship would lead to something permanent if I worked hard and stayed committed to the job. Yesterday, however, I was pulled in by my teary-eyed supervisor who told me that all of us interns and temporary workers are to be laid off at the end of April, my last day will be the 27th. My world just fell apart. Not only am I going to be a criminal with this DUI in California, I am also going to be once again unemployed. I had already gone through two prior layoffs within the last two years, and I was not prepared for this one to happen to me.
Now I face the prospects of having to find a job with a criminal record soon to come. I am sure my arrest is already a part of my background, and come April 19th I will be convicted. I have a bachelors degree in accounting, I have worked many jobs in the finance and accounting field, and I was finally starting to get somewhere...but now this, all of this. I don't know what to do anymore. I am afraid this misdemeanor is going to make me unemployable, or that my only prospects will be low-level jobs that I worked so hard to move up from.
My drinking problems started back in September 2015 after having been laid off in June 2015, going through more than 10 interviews only to be rejected over and over again. I drank to cope, the wrong thing to do, but I had no one to talk to. I know it is stupid to use a depressant to deal with depression but stupid is as stupid does, and its what I did. I admit I am stupid. I also admit that I planned to put an end to my life, not only because of the job issues but everything else that had piled on over the years --I was finished with it all. When I got out of jail I made the choice that if I wasn't going to live for myself than I was going to live for my family and friends. I know ending my life would make them suffer the most, and that is just not fair to them.
I don't know if anyone has been through what I been through, but if you have it would help to hear your story and how you overcame this. I don't want this to be the end of my career, and I don't want this to be the end of my life. I guess one question I also have is while I know that this misdemeanor and arrest will come up in backgrounds, have you had difficulty in finding work because of it?
You can have reasons, or you can have results, but you can't have both.
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 1,232
Interesting question. Not sure I totally understand it, but here's my best attempt at a response...and I will speak from my perspective, and I am an Evangelical Christian:
1) Knowing that alcohol is not conducive to health, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, especially not a loved one. I would encourage anybody suffering to find a way to solve the cause of their pain, not just numb it out. If it's something temporary just to be endured (like a tooth extraction or a crabby mood after a bad day at work), there are better short-term remedies than booze.
2) From my Evangelical perspective, one of the problems with alcoholism is that it's a form of idolatry. Another is that God wishes me to turn to Him in times of trouble; turning instead to a bottle is an act of unfaith and not pleasing to Him. When I choose alcohol over God, I'm shutting Him and His blessings out of my life. Perhaps that's Christian-speak for karma.
3) From a common sense/life wisdom perspective, like attracts like. (I believe that's a Karmic principle.) When you do foolish, toxic, destructive things (like live in addiction), more foolish, toxic, destructive events and people will be energetically drawn to you.
I will say this: After two months sober, my "luck" is different, people are better toward me, and random adversities happen much less often.
1) Knowing that alcohol is not conducive to health, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, especially not a loved one. I would encourage anybody suffering to find a way to solve the cause of their pain, not just numb it out. If it's something temporary just to be endured (like a tooth extraction or a crabby mood after a bad day at work), there are better short-term remedies than booze.
2) From my Evangelical perspective, one of the problems with alcoholism is that it's a form of idolatry. Another is that God wishes me to turn to Him in times of trouble; turning instead to a bottle is an act of unfaith and not pleasing to Him. When I choose alcohol over God, I'm shutting Him and His blessings out of my life. Perhaps that's Christian-speak for karma.
3) From a common sense/life wisdom perspective, like attracts like. (I believe that's a Karmic principle.) When you do foolish, toxic, destructive things (like live in addiction), more foolish, toxic, destructive events and people will be energetically drawn to you.
I will say this: After two months sober, my "luck" is different, people are better toward me, and random adversities happen much less often.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by sleepie
Endgame I was looking forward to your input... but am confused by this long quote.
From the OP:
So let's imagine a hypothetical situation in which a close one is suffering, would it be be right, or wrong, to advise them to drink?
That further begs the question, when we are in crisis, would it be karmically correct for us to "prescribe" alcohol to ourselves as a remedy?
That further begs the question, when we are in crisis, would it be karmically correct for us to "prescribe" alcohol to ourselves as a remedy?
Discarding the notion of karma for the moment, there was a time in our history when suggesting a drink in response to immediate or remote stressors was perfectly acceptable, even recommended, and I cannot say that I would never do the same under all circumstances. My concern is that, when we drink as a means of escaping unwanted feelings, we're building a chain of cognitive and behavioral associations, a reward system, that promises relief in the face of increasing anxiety. The problem is that it works. And then it doesn't.
Some people can walk away from this process, while many do not. It's not always a good thing to mess with someone else's karma.
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