SoberinSyracuse

Why is it not acceptable here to post one's personal experiences with any and all recovery programs? Not for the purpose of a debate, but to share experiences.

Specifically, why is it okay to strongly endorse AA based on personal experience, but not to post that one has had a bad experience with it?

If statements about personal experience are allowed here, then I believe we should allow ALL personal experience with ALL programs.

I note that AA endorsement is allowed, but those of us who've had negative experiences usually get some harsh comments when we refer to these experiences, no matter how diplomatically we try to frame it.

Before responding, please note that this inquiry is NOT about the effectiveness of one program over the other.

Fabat50

What makes you ask this question SIS? I thought anything goes here as long as it is based on our personal experience?
Hugs x

Grendhar

I like being around other sober people because their stories can be inspiring .. but when they start talking about God .. I wasted my time even going to that meeting. They think they have the perfect answer "No, not God .. a God of your understanding .. a higher power!"

No evidence has ever been demonstrated to me that there is any power out there that has any interest in keeping me sober.

That's my issue with A.A .. but as I said it can be worth going to if they don't simply say they don't drink anymore because of some God.

stevieg46

Suppose its quite simple people who are for AA speak up for it in the whole, I am a AA and I do not believe that AA is the only way , unfortunately some folk go to AA do one or two meetings and speak out against it as if they are experts of what they think is wrong , any fellowship or organization that's trying to help others are excellent in my book , there are also some folk that have had really bad experiences in AA rightly or wrongly and they are perfectly within their rights to air their views , my suggestion is look up the different forums and find one you are comfortable with , arguing about methods in getting sober/clean do not help one getting clean/sober they are a hindrance , this is an age old argument which wont be resolved or go away , try non secular forums , no steps higher powers are allowed in discussions , personally I have been a member of Lifering for 9 years or so and they do not endorse Steps, or Higher Powers to be discussed and yes people comfortably criticize AA from time to time

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006

Venecia

This is probably one for our mods/admins to address.

As a member here for two-plus years, I can offer these observations:

- We're here to be about solutions. That's why we have forums in which people can talk about their programs of recovery, either AA or Secular Connections. Talking about what doesn't work? I'm not sure what that accomplishes. Keeping the focus on what does work, on the other hand, serves everyone's interests well.

- Tone and community matter. From my own experience, many posters go straight to criticisms of AA, why they don't like it, disagreeing with what they see as its religious underpinnings and the like. Moreover, and I have seen this recently, it never seems to suffice to raise questions -- too many posts go straight to sarcasm and responses to AA believers that hover on the edge of rudeness. Some of the least civil posts I've seen on SR are attacks on AA. That neither serves our purpose here nor community building.

- When you think about it, SR asks very little of us, particularly in contrast to the benefit we get from it. Asking that its members refrain from criticizing methods of approaching recovery -- and there are many -- seems like a reasonable request from a community that has given us so much.

SoberinSyracuse

It was my understanding as well, but when I've mentioned here that AA was a bad fit for me and one of the proximal triggers of my previous relapses, and that I'm doing much better now away from the 12-step and disease model of addiction, I've received some pretty sharp-sounding responses. And I've seen the same happen to others. In fact, it seems every time I've seen anyone report that AA was not helpful, they are accused of "debating" or inappropriately blaming the program for their own failings.

Why can't somebody have a bad experience with a program, mention that, and have the reality of their experience respected?

Fly N Buy

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GardenGal

I've only been to one AA meeting so far*, and though people mentioned God, what I liked is that no one said Jesus. Everyone has the right to have their own God, even if it's Mother Nature, as I've come to believe mine is.

I married an atheist, but we now attend a church together, at our son's insistence [because his friend goes]. All types of 'believers' attend, and they discuss all religions. Everyone is accepted, even atheists.

Edit: *I posted this because the religious aspect was probably the main reason I didn't want to attend AA, though everyone on my support team insisted I should. I grew up with too much religion forced down my throat.

SoberinSyracuse

AGAIN, this is not intended to be a discussion about AA.

To Venecia's point, I agree it's not helpful to post sweeping, generalized criticisms about programs here. However, if the point of this forum is to share experiences, is it inappropriate to say, "Program X rests largely on a belief in a Higher Power, which I have every right not to embrace. Their insistence on this was a distraction and I believe this stressor contributed to my relapse."

Is that not a 100% valid "personal experience?"

PurpleKnight

There are other areas within the Forum for debating recovery methods, but within the Newcomers section debate over methods can mean that it becomes less welcoming than it should be, if things get negative and bogged down over debates, and so there is a Forum Rule on the issue.

There's a whole section on SR dedicated to AA, and a whole section on Secular methods, to debate as much as anyone wants.

It all comes down to which section someone is posting within, experience is all any of us have, but there is a time and a place, as defined by the Forum rules.

Grendhar

Okay okay .. I'll post about the actual topic ..

I believe people should be able to express their opinions as long as they are within reason. Anything over the top that could potentially harm someone .. maybe draw the line there? But discussions about the different programs .. might actually help a newcomer come to an informed decision.

dwtbd

Sis
Of course it is a valid 'personal experience', how could anyone besides the individual question the validity of an 'experience'.

Regardless whether or not any specific program holds such and such, the idea that 'stressors contribute to ... or have the power to cause' a relapse is pure AV and should be discarded.

Venecia

Thank you, dwtbd. Agree wholeheartedly.

Dee74

I'll respond first as a member who's seen a lot of threads go by

I believe in sharing what works.

I'm not convinced that sharing what doesn't work is terribly effective, except maybe as a venting experience for the poster posting.

As a mod:

when you share that something doesn't work and that something saved someone else's life, you can bet they're gonna post in response.

Sometimes these things escalate.

Anna and I got so weary over the recovery method battles that we banned recovery method debates in this forum (and it is wearying believe me, especially when either Anna or I enjoy conflict)

It's been a few years now - and no one seems to be worse off by that decision. In fact Newcomers has grown exponentially.

Anna and I put a great deal of time into trying to be fair to everyone.
We're both human, but I'd be very disappointed if anyone suggested that we were biased.

We try to mod with a very light hand.

It doesn't seem too much to ask that everyone post being mindful of other people's beliefs, and mutual respect is a pretty reasonable ask on a forum full of adults.

I'm not aware of any of your posts being pulled SiS.

We may remind folks of the rule, but I can't remember the last time we actually pulled a post or shut a thread over recovery debates.

As dictatorships go? we're pretty benign

Dee
Moderator
SR

Dharma33

I agree in posting about what worked for you, not what didn't work in regard to recovery.

What if, what didn't work for you- and your post about it saying as much.....could dissuade someone from trying it themselves, and could have been the very method that saved some other member's life?

Grendhar

Have got to admit Dee makes sense as usual ..

SoberinSyracuse

Whether or not someone correctly identifies the cause of their relapse -- AV, stress, or whatever -- is not really the point. The point is how very differently we respond to people who share their AA experiences.

If a pro-AA person states, "My Higher Power keeps me sober," we would not tolerate atheists piling on and stating "That's superstition. There is no Higher Power. Your Will Power is what keeps you sober."

If a person struggling with relapse states, "My sponsor's psychological abuse led to my relapse, " it's inconsistent and unkind for us to reply "No it didn't. YOU drank because YOU wanted to drink."

Not very nice, not very supportive.

Grendhar

I don't bash the people who say their higher power, or god keeps them sober ... I don't say a thing to them .. it just doesn't help me. If it helps you great. You've got a tool I don't.

My apologies if I've offended anyone..

Soberpotamus

I've been involved in three different programs (not including my IOP, aftercare, and my time spent here on SR) over a ten year period. These programs aren't flawless. However, I stitched together what I found effective, helpful, and workable from each one. I could complain about what I didn't personally find helpful, or what I found distracting or even harmful, but these same elements might be what works for another person. The very things I might gripe about are what got someone else sober. It would be irresponsible and possibly dangerous for me to perpetuate those elements of a program as "negative" or harmful because I am one individual with personal biases and my own filters. Newcomers need to explore and decide for themselves what they're willing and able to embrace.

SoberinSyracuse

I did not state that I didn't believe in God (I'm a Christian), and I didn't state any of my posts had been deleted. I'm commenting on the mean and chilly treatment people receive here who have negative experiences with AA.

This is not about me personally. I'm too independent to much care how someone replies to one of my posts. I'm simply pointing out the very strong pro-AA slant of the community.