Ally89

This is something I continue to struggle with.

I feel like this label is automatically given to anyone in a relationship with an alcoholic. Whilst I can see how the dynamic can develop overtime I still see most of the actions to be that of someone who cares about another who has an affliction that they have little understanding of. At least that was the case for me and I did not realise my ex was an alcoholic until it progressed and became harder to hide.

I mostly have a problem with the implication that I somehow got myself into this situation or have a desire to 'fix' or control people. That just isn't true. My ex was the most self sufficient and capable man I had met in my life and I have no idea how he changed so much. The more time and energy this took of me the more annoyed I became and distanced myself. Yes it's nice to feel wanted that is a key element of a relationship to me but I did not sign up to be anyone's carer. Supportive, yes.

I didn't reject the notion outright. I was so confused and overwhelmed I took all the advice given and read codependent no more etc but couldn't see myself in it-aside from some attributes that I cannot accept are negative and solely relevant to codependency.

I just want to hear from any others who might agree or have a similar issue with the term. I just find it frustrating that people say we are "sicker than the addict" etc. Is it really so impossible that some of us had a normal relationship with someone who got sick, caused us pain and we tried to deal with it as best we could but were ignorant to the power of addiction? I see a lot of self blame sometimes on this site which saddens and confuses me. If someone mistreats me and I am angry/sad etc to say "they did not make you feel that way you did it to yourself" is ludicrous to me.

I hope I don't offend anyone. There is a lot of wisdom on this forum but this is something I find slightly alienating.

dandylion

Ally89......I understand your feeling about the "word".........
I had some of the same reservations when I first came across it.....
There are many definitions of the word, also.......

The best definition that I have come across---that makes sense to ME......is the one that simply says that co-dependency is less about our relationship with others than a LACK of a sufficient relationship with ourselves....

I also think there is a lot of variance, between individuals, regarding the degree of this "self relationship".......

As I came to understand it in this way (for myself)....I rarely use the "word", any more......

As for yourself, dear Ally, I say to only wear the shoes that fit......(lol).....
I hope this helps.......

dandylion

LexieCat

I feel the same way--I've never considered myself co-dependent, though I've exhibited some of the behaviors at times in my relationships. For some people there is something deeply ingrained where a pattern labeled "co-dependency" does happen over and over, but I would never say everyone in a relationship with an alcoholic is co-dependent.

I just sort of ignore the use of the term when it's used loosely, and substitute "effects of living with active alcoholism."

Lilro

Ally

My story is very similar to yours. I was unaware that my exabf was an alcoholic until 4 1/2 years into a 5 year relationship. Crazy, I know. Am I co-dependent? I don't know. Here's what I do know. Once "the cat was out of the bag" I tried to learn as much as I could about the disease of alcoholism. I pretty much laid down the law as to what would be acceptable FOR ME. As we all know, that didn't work out so we split. I think that if I would have continued on in that relationship as an enabler to the situations that I found unacceptable then yes, I would consider myself co-dependent.
But here's the kicker that I struggle with .... My EXH was an addict. First alcohol, then prescription pills. So obviously there is a pattern to the men that I hook up with. I should have recognized those red flags waving like a day at the beach with my AEXBF. so am I co-dependent? I never thought so but.......
IM WORKING ON IT.
Ro

thequest

I don't know if the codependent person is sicker than the addict but I would say there is some co dependency there. When I see a person stick in a relationship experiencing negative consequences and/or enabling the alkie/addict to me that is co dependency. I've seen it. Years ago it was obvious the codependent here was staying in the relationship for money. He has no money now. Now with even more negative behavior she's still there. Both have changed very little and their negative behavior has increased including alcohol use.

Changes are hard. Alot of sober people won't change or have problems making change. But things will not change unless the people change.

healthyagain

I would agree with you, Ally89, in most what you say. What gets me most is people who do deal with addicts also get abused quite often. There are the mind games that the addicts play, there is withdrawal of intimacy to be punished, there are the mood swings, walking on the eggshells. Then there might be kids involved. Or even physical or sexual violence. The author of the book "Why Does He Do That?" states that abused women ARE NOT codependent.

You see, I took that step and left my addict. I have no desire whatsoever to date anyone. I only had two relationships in my life. I do not consider myself to be a love addict. My boundaries do exist. Never had problems with saying "no." What my problem was was not knowing what to do when the other side does not accept "no" as the answer. I thought everybody in life would play the game fairly. But what to do when you are 5000 miles away from home, cut from your relatives and friends and society? You will live your life the best you can, trying to dodge the bullets the best you can.

But I do believe that codependency exists to some degree. That it is real. I do believe I was acting in codependent ways, because I did not know any better. I wanted to please and do anything for my partner. I thought that was the right thing to do. I honestly believed I could CURE him and CHANGE him. Love conquers all, they teach us. But not addiction! Then my eyes opened. There is no way I'll go back to him and be his caretaker. And single life is not that bad after all.

Another thing. I think there is a difference between those who act in codependent ways, and those who truly have a codependent personality type.

LifeRecovery

I don't believe I am codependant, but I do behave codpendently. It is drastically improved from my previous behavior but it is something I need to be careful around. I use the definition Dandy has for my grounding point.

For me though it was an early learning FOO piece that my relationships that I struggled with codependency just shined a light on. As hard as my relationship with my ex was for me I needed it to have my own growth and to develop a relationship with myself.

With or without the term it sounds like you are working hard on your own recovery and path. I think that is the most important part.

FireSprite

I don't believe that every partner/loved one/friend of an addict automatically qualifies as a Codie. I also think a person can start out perfectly healthy & end up Codie as a result of the insanity of dealing with an addict. ESPECIALLY as a result of their ignorance because they often attempt all the classic-fail ways of trying to manipulate their loved one's addiction instead of seeking education.... it's a merry-go-round. You can't seek education about something that you don't recognize happening. So you employ various tactics of control & manipulation (emotional, financial) which turn into habits over time that you don't see for what they are.

My Codependency shows differently in my relationships - it's far easier for me to identify & back away from that behavior with RAH than it is with my FOO because those are the blurrier, more difficult boundary lines for me. I AM codependent in terms of my FOO (it has been central in those relationships) but I ACT codependently with my RAH at times (it is situational/reactive) because I have always seen myself as fully independent from him on some level, no matter how much I love him. I don't have such an easy separation of Self with my FOO. (but I'm getting there, trust me )

I think our codependent nature, or lack thereof, has more to do with who we are in relation to everyone around us & not just about managing ourselves around addiction. Definitely makes sense that a person codependent from early in life is more likely to seek out relationships with those that will utilize their codie skills because it feels "right" & "normal" to them.

Ally89

Thanks so much for all your replies everyone.

I am surprised to see there are others who feel this way too or have different perspectives. I was a bit reluctant to post because I felt like I was going to be the odd one out on this but I should know by now this is a safe, welcoming and compassionate space.

Thanks again to you all xx

AnvilheadII

i believe that codependency runs on a scale (or a pendulum??) from 0 or nearly always 0 to max 100. any of us can express or exhibit codependent behaviors or traits in a given set of circumstances....

I think we can all spot ourselves, either present or past, in at least one of the following:

Patterns and Characteristics of Codependence
These patterns and characteristics are offered as a tool to aid in self-evaluation.

They may be particularly helpful to newcomers.

Denial Patterns:
I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
I minimize, alter, or deny how I truly feel.
I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well-being
of others.
I lack empathy for the feelings and needs of others.
I label others with my negative traits.
I can take care of myself without any help from others.
I mask my pain in various ways such as anger, humor, or isolation.
I express negativity or aggression in indirect and passive ways.
I do not recognize the unavailability of those people to whom I am
attracted.

Low Self Esteem Patterns:
I have difficulty making decisions.
I judge what I think, say, or do harshly, as never good enough.
I am embarrassed to receive recognition, praise, or gifts.
I value others’ approval of my thinking, feelings, and behavior over my
own.
I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.
I constantly seek recognition that I think I deserve.
I have difficulty admitting that I made a mistake.
I need to appear to be right in the eyes of others and will even lie to
look good.
I am unable to ask others to meet my needs or desires.
I perceive myself as superior to others.
I look to others to provide my sense of safety.
I have difficulty getting started, meeting deadlines, and completing
projects.
I have trouble setting healthy priorities.

Compliance Patterns:
I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or anger.
I put aside my own interests in order to do what others want.
I am hypervigilant regarding the feelings of others and take on those
feelings.
I am afraid to express my beliefs, opinions, and feelings when they
differ from those of others.
I accept sexual attention when I want love.
I make decisions without regard to the consequences.
I give up my truth to gain the approval of others or to avoid change.

Control Patterns:
I believe most people are incapable of taking care of themselves.
I attempt to convince others what to think, do, or feel.
I freely offer advice and direction to others without being asked.
I become resentful when others decline my help or reject my advice.
I lavish gifts and favors on those I want to influence.
I use sexual attention to gain approval and acceptance.
I have to be needed in order to have a relationship with others.
I demand that my needs be met by others.
I use charm and charisma to convince others of my capacity to be
caring and compassionate.
I use blame and shame to emotionally exploit others.
I refuse to cooperate, compromise, or negotiate.
I adopt an attitude of indifference, helplessness, authority, or rage to
manipulate outcomes.
I use terms of recovery in an attempt to control the behavior of
others.
I pretend to agree with others to get what I want.

Avoidance Patterns:
I act in ways that invite others to reject, shame, or express anger
toward me.
I judge harshly what others think, say, or do.
I avoid emotional, physical, or sexual intimacy as a means of
maintaining distance.
I allow my addictions to people, places, and things to distract me from
achieving intimacy in relationships.
I use indirect and evasive communication to avoid conflict or
confrontation.
I diminish my capacity to have healthy relationships by declining to
use all the tools of recovery.
I suppress my feelings or needs to avoid feeling vulnerable.
I pull people toward me, but when they get close, I push them away.
I refuse to give up my self-will to avoid surrendering to a power that is
greater than myself.
I believe displays of emotion are a sign of weakness.
I withhold expressions of appreciation.

The Patterns and Characteristics of Codependency may not be reprinted or
republished without the express written consent of Co-Dependents Anonymous, Inc.
This document may be reprinted from the website Home - CoDA.org (CoDA) for
use by members of the CoDA Fellowship.

thequest

Wouldn't one of the biggest variables with something like codependency is experience a negative consequence then not doing anything about it? For example wouldn't this be especially true in compliance patterns?