mylifeismine

I am blown away by the complete and utter lack of any reference what so ever to former or current spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends/children/parents
and the pain and anguish they have caused to these people
by their drinking.

Now, it is all about their sobriety, and it probably needs to be. But,
But......that just highlights how the the alcohol used to be first and formost in their life, and now it is their sobriety that holds center
stage. And all their support friends say it is the most important
thing in their life.

If I/we ever thought sobriety would give their "former" selves back
to us, and we would truly hold the most important place in their heart, I/we are deluding ourselves again. Not happening, never. Silly, silly me....

amy55

Yep, and I am an RA.

(((((hugs)))))
amy

Liveitwell

As my therapist has stated many times, she has plenty of stories of recovery-she's an addiction specialist and also was married to an alcoholic! She's had plenty of time in the AA rooms and has counseled thousands of addicts. She stated that it's very rare to hear of them talking of the person that they hurt-or who was hurt as a result of their drinking. Most of the recovered As she works with were still completely self absorbed - only a few had truly recovered, made living amends and felt true remorse. So , yeah-deluding ourselves is pretty spot on-but there are exceptions....

amy55

Sorry bout that short response. I am an RA. I had quit drinking many times, when I did I wasn't pushing people away. I'm sure there are many that did. So, I can't really answer this. I do notice on the newcomers section, that not many people talk about the people they lost in their lives.

LexieCat

That isn't the experience I've seen at my AA meetings. I frequently hear people talk about the harm they did to others.

The thing is, beating yourself up and berating yourself for things you did while drinking doesn't help ANYONE. There is an "amends" Step, which is intended to make right what is possible to make right. Beyond that, though, what possible good does it do for people to continually shame themselves?

Every one of us on this forum has done things we wish we hadn't done--if not relating to alcoholism, then something else. We've all hurt other people--sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. It doesn't do US any good to beat ourselves up, either. Fix what you can, work to do better, and let go of the past.

dandylion

my life is mine.......I completely u nderstand how you feel. This is a huge sticking point for me, also!

I do think that it takes a long time and a l ot of inside work for the alcoholic to develop enough self awareness and spiritual growth to face and own the amount of pain and damage they might have brought onto others.....

I understand that l oved ones can't always wait for that.....

I also think that it is even worse for the children and parents of alcoholics who yearn for this......

dandylion

dandylion

Lexie....I am not talking about wanting anyone to "beat themselves up"......
I am referring to awareness of the pain done to others and the wiliness to reveal the sorrow and to make it right......

dandylion

suki44883

With all due respect...we cannot "make it right." We cannot undo the past. The best we can do is try to make amends and move forward. There are those who will forgive and those who will not. I am both a recovering alcoholic and a family member of alcoholics. I can see things from both sides. I can only do what I can.

LexieCat

The OP was talking about people discussing it (or, rather, NOT discussing it) on the "AA forum," not acknowledging the harm to the person harmed. A lot of people have the misconception that AA is a place where people do public "confessionals." That's not what it's about.

ladyscribbler

Early on in Alanon, I was pretty upset to hear that I probably owed amends to my alcoholic ex. But by the time I was finally ready to take that step, I realized that it was true. I was also in a place where I was ready to do it with no thought to the amends I used to think he "owed" to me. Letting go of my need for him to be remorseful or apologetic has been a part of my recovery. It wasn't fast or easy, but it had to happen so that I could move forward.
I was a willing participant in our relationship, an adult making choices. The fact that I made many of those choices with the martyr-like expectation that one day he would come to me on his knees sobbing out an apology was part of my disease.
Someone on here used to have the greatest signature line- "Never make someone else a priority when all you are to them is an option." I have applied that to my life today and am much happier for it.

Liveitwell

Lady -as usual, every single word. Me too. I did make amends to my ex about my poor choices , my actions, etc. Truly. Because I saw what I had become-a martyr like you said, waiting for him to come to me on bended knee sobbing his eyes out-he did actually do that but it was all fake. I have no expectation of ever getting an apology or amends from him-he has an evil heart-I can go on without his amends...my life is much better without him AND my life got better when I did truly face my actions and repent and make living amends. It didn't save my marriage, but it saved me.

mylifeismine

I'm talking about a "reference" to a current or former loved one and
to clarify, not apologies or confessions. Something along the line
of "I sure miss my ______, we used to have good times, I wish I could
have that again......" You know, just some reference, anything.

An apology, sobbing, on bended knee is not what I am looking
for. Drama doesn't do it for me. Again, it was the lack of any reference to others in their lives.

LexieCat

Lots of alcoholics have lost a hell of a lot before they get sober. And a lot of people in the alcoholism forum have either already made their peace with those losses or they are trying to save their own lives. The ones who put their energy into mourning their losses are usually the ones who are going to drink again because they are too busy feeling sorry for themselves to do what they need to do to get better.

You've got to understand, getting sober isn't a matter of giving up a bad habit. It's literally a life-or-death struggle. Families are casualties of the disease. It doesn't excuse what the alcoholic did--he or she is still responsible for what was done while drinking--but self-pity or wallowing in regret (or resentment) is not conducive to recovery.

mylifeismine

I haven't attended any AA meetings yet, but I will next week. I hear
in alanon it helps. Right now, I consider everyone to be my teacher
and I appreciate and give my undivided attention to all who reply to
me. Not trying to push any buttons or devalue another's journey.

I noticed a stark contrast between posts on friends & family &
the aa posts. On one, all the talk is centered on others, on the other,
all the talk is centered on themselves. I found it to be very
unsettling .......

ladyscribbler

Good for you mlim. It took me FOREVER to even attend an Alanon meeting that had an AA meeting in the same building. I didn't want to see alcoholics; I didn't want to hear their voices; I didn't want to be anywhere near them. I was so angry. It took me even longer to attend an open AA meeting, and I even agonized over that. A friend of mine was receiving a 30 year chip (they open that particular meeting if the person has 20 or more years of sobriety). I've still only been to the ones where someone I knew was celebrating 20 or more years of sobriety. It's just not something I'm ready for yet- a "regular" open AA meeting.

dandylion

I very respectfully submit that when I say "make it right"....I mean the same as "paying it forward" and "making amends"'.
Of course, I am not talking about "Undoing the p ast", Suki---nobody can do that!

I just don't want to be misunderstood because of terminology that is used.

To go even further about what I m ean...and what matters to me, in regards to this matter (as a loved one).....
What I yearn for is for my alcoholic to see my heart and soul.....and for me to see his see his heart and soul.....When we can do that...I think that is the ultimate connection between humans.....It is the ultimate love......

I do think that this is a good discussion to have on this forum....because I know that it matters....really matters....to so many of us......

I will say that I have been in situations (not aa meetings) where I have seen alcoholics expressing the deepest regret and personal agony at the realization of how they may have hurt their loved ones....it was not feeling sorry for themselves and it wasn't wallowing in self pity....I could actually "feel" their pain......it was a humbling thing to witness..... I think when it is real, you can feel it......you know it.....

dandylion

Jackedjohn

As a person in recovery I absolutely agree with you. I will probably get some grief for saying this from the other side, but some of us (especially those of us who don't buy in to pop recovery) would absolutely agree with you. In the beginning... yes sobriety should be the number 1 priority because there is some truth in the cliche one liner that if you lose your sobriety... you will lose everything else. But once someone gets a handle on it and the compulsion has subsided and thoughts of using are no longer always on the mind... it is time for us to pay back some emotional debt. Just be mindful and read with compassion when you read posts. The majority of the people who post are struggling and hanging on by a hair. They are not yet in a position to think of anything except staying sober. And most of us who respond to those who are struggling are trying help them stay sober for the day and not focusing on who they have hurt... guilt is a reason to drink/use, not stay sober. Its a process. Most of us when we were kids didn't wish to grow up to be like this and if there is an attempt being made to get clean and sober... that should be respected. It is a positive step. That being said... maybe you could start a thread asking alcoholics and addicts to speak about the people they hurt and how they "made amends" or repaid some of that emotional debt. I think you would get a very positive response.

Liveitwell

As a loved one of an alcoholic, or former loved one, more than anything I wanted him to know I loved him-and never wanted anything bad to happen to him-I just wanted him to stop hurting-bc it hurt me to watch it and he just ended up hurting us. I wanted him to know the hurt he caused me. The pain, the terror, the sheer wanting to die at times bc he made me feel so small. I wanted him to catch all the tears from his own daughter-from pain he inflicted on her. My heart was always in a good place-my intentions were pure-out of love. I wanted my alcoholic to see that-but I've gotten to a place that it's okay if he never does. I know it, and God knows it-so it is well with me. I longed for him to see my heart-and since my separation and divorce I have truly seen his heart, and it is evil. Sometimes we loved ones get past the need for amends. Just my two cents.

By the way, great idea, Jacked!!!

happybeingme

I am a former alcoholic. I have more active and in recovery alcoholics in my life then I care to mention. I also exclusively used online forums for my recovery. Most of us never mentioned the harm we caused others or the remorse we felt. It wasn't necessary. We know those feelings are there. If we are working our programs whatever they are in the right way then we are dealing directly with those we hurt plus to be honest from where I stand I don't care to hear about how great your partner or spouse is or how you screwed up, blah, blah. I already know that. You wouldn't be with them if you didn't feel that way. I want to know how you deal with sobriety . How you got your head screwed back on. How do you deal with life on life's terms. AA has a specific format. Talking about your feelings of remorse may not be appropriate in the forums you are reading. Different meetings focus on different things.

You have to know you don't belong on an AA forum if you aren't an alcoholic. Go to Al-Anon meetings. That is where you will find healing for yourself no matter what your qualifier is doing or saying.

LexieCat

I agree that the Al-Anon forums/meetings are where to go for healing. But I think both alcoholics and friends/family can learn a lot from the "other side" if they keep quiet and LISTEN (rather than give advice or look for things to criticize). Accept that the people in the meeting are people deeply affected by the disease, and whose perspective is much different from your own.

Years ago (before I qualified for AA), my favorite meeting was a Friday night group composed of people in AA and Al-Anon (so it was neither an AA group nor an Al-Anon group because it had no single "primary purpose" in the sense of the Traditions). But each week they alternated readings from AA or Al-Anon literature, alternated speakers/topics. I made some good friends at that meeting, and I think we all were the wiser/better/stronger in our individual recoveries for it.