schnappi99

This is an essay on the AA/Buddhism I found very helpful, even though I'm in from the Alanon side of things. The essay is coming from a more or less Zen perspective, my sect is somewhat different but that doesn't seem to present any difficulties...

http://sfzc.org/sp_download/2010_buddhism_12steps.pdf

Good luck!

zerothehero

I like this because it is so concise. Two books I recommend along these lines are:

Buddhism and the Twelve Steps: A Recovery Workbook for Individuals and Groups - Kevin Griffin (the entire book addresses each of the 12 steps in relation to Buddhism, much like the article, while suggesting relevant practices)

Refuge Recovery: A Buddhist Path to Recovering from Addiction - Noah Levine (he supports 12 Step programs but has created his own process that blends 12 Step thinking with Buddhist thought and practice)

I have come to the conclusion that Buddhist practice and the 12 Steps have many obvious parallels, but some of the 12 Steps cannot be truly reconciled with Buddhism. Replacing "higher power" with a kind of "faith" in the process (or Eightfold Path) seems too far a stretch. But that's just me. I just don't view the Path as a higher power, and I'm not turning my will over to it; my will is helping me walk it.

CousinA

Thank you.

We have an active Refuge Recovery meeting here that I've been meaning to attend.

Two other books by Kevin Griffin that I have found helpful -

One Breath At A Time - Buddhism & The 12 Steps

A Burning Desire: Dahrma God and the Path Of Recovery

-allan

schnappi99

Hi Zero,

I dunno, I've not found any inconsistency between the 12-Step program I'm in (alanon) and my Buddhist practice. The Big Book and my Alanon lit defers questions of theology & liturgy to the individual's spiritual practice in whatever form it takes. Clearly the 12-step terminology is of a Christian heritage, but I've found it completely effective to go to my Buddhist practice whenever the 12-step work talks about God.

For my part I tend to think of myself as an expression of my higher power, like everyone else is of theirs. Not my business to debate the existence or properties of anyone else's higher power. One of my favorite gosho on this front is the "14 Slanders", where Buddha Never Disparaging suggests everyone has the buddha nature and so reveres all; slandering anyone slanders their buddha nature. I like how much in accord that is with the pragmatic AA assertion that all people, including oneself, are God's Kids and so deserving of respect & love.

I don't think the 12-Step program needs me to have faith in the process- it only suggests that I try it as a means of recovery. The encouragement I get is to "Do The Steps" and get with my spiritual practice & do that stuff too. The "turning my will over" question is interesting though. In the depths of the "ism", I figured if I could reason out what I needed then it must be true, but if I'm looking at things with the brain that brought me into recovery, my perceptions are distorted and incomplete, my reasoning delusional to various degrees. Now several years in working the steps with my sponsor, doing the program stuff and the spiritual practice stuff, I am not confident that I can always or even often make clear distinctions between needs vs desires vs cravings and so make good decisions. I like ChuckC here, he says what I need to be doing is "love and service, for free and for fun" and my higher power will bring me the things I need. To me thats what turning my will over means. He proposes that a question of God's Will or not can be resolved by what I get out of a given choice; if it doesn't gratify me in any way than it may be, if I am gratified in some way than maybe not.

But I don't think of my higher power in terms of its "Will". I have karma that brings me into various situations, I have the opportunity to use the meditation, use my Alanon & step-work, talk to my friends and so start to change it. Or I can indulge in the 3 Poisons and change it another way. Might be that the 12-Step spiritual awakening is the development of perception and understanding that I can make a choice instead of being driven by instinct and delusion.

SillyHuman

The essay is very helpful. I know a little about Buddhism, mainly from Pema, but these essays are really speaking to me. Thanks for sharing them.

And thanks everybody for the book recommends.

Time2Rise

I have to agree with Zero. Personally, I don't believe one can be both a practicing Buddhist and a 12-Step adherent. While there are similarities between the two doctrines, they really aren't compatible IMO. I’d suggest that anyone who claims to be practicing both the Steps and Buddhism is either not really a Buddhist, or is not working the 12-Steps as intended.

Of course, it is possible to tweak the 12-Steps or Buddhist tenants so that an altered version of one belief system or the other is used concurrently, but again, that means the authentic programs and/or philosophies aren't being followed.

To be clear, I’m not making a value judgement about Buddhism or the 12-Steps, nor do I have an issue with altering either belief system so that both can be used together; however, I do feel it’s a little disingenuous to suggest that Buddhism and the 12-Steps are compatible and complementary without a need for significant modifications to one or both belief structures (I’m not referring to you specifically schnappi, but more to those 12-Step proponents who vehemently insist that anyone from any religious or philosophical background can easily use the 12-Steps without making significant changes to their beliefs, convictions and principles).

schnappi99

I don't know Time, I've not found a single difficulty in practicing both... not that I am qualified to judge who is or is not a Buddhist (or a 12-Step person either). For my money if someone does Buddhist stuff then they're a Buddhist, likewise AA/Alanon. Its not like there are exams...lol or perhaps I'm a lousy Buddhist lolz..

OTOH perhaps there are some Buddhist sects or principles that are inconsistent with AA/Alanon, but I've not come across any. Could you be more specific? I've been curious about the question.

Frankly I've found doing the 12 Steps to the best of my ability makes me a better practicioner of Buddhism. I was doing some service at my buddhist community center last night, my partner on the desk has been practicing 27 years (she told me). I asked her how she has transformed herself through the practice (we call it human revolution). I was going for the Big Book's proposition that 12-Step people should be quick to see how other disciplines get it right. We didn't get to go too far into the question, but I did get some hints about awareness of the need for self-care, next right thing, consistency of practice as being the key for her. I needed the 12-Step alanon work to become more clearly aware of that stuff, and criticially, the need for ego deflation at depth.

Granted, a literal view of the AA/Alanon literature immediately trips one up over the question of God etc.. but I found a simple substition of my Buddhism for God works fine wrt the Steps. When I do my morning meditation I do the prayers in the same way; I offer thanks for yesterday, and ask for help today to be of service & free of fear/ego/lust etc. It leaves me in a much better place facing the day than I was a few years ago.

Time2Rise

As you know Buddhism is non-theistic, there is no God, no diety. More importantly Buddhist spiritual growth comes from within, without the help of any higher power. The 12-Steps require the belief in a supernatural power (God) that must be prayed to and will restore one to sanity, remove defects of character, and show his will to the Step adherent and grant the adherent the power to carry out his will. In short, the 12-Steps depend wholly on an interventionist deity (God).

They are two philosophies whose spiritual doctrines are polar opposites. It sounds to me like you have adjusted the 12-Steps to fit with your Buddhist principles, and as I stated above, that's fine. However, I would argue that you are not working the 12-Steps as the are intended to be worked. And again, that's fine. In essence, it seems you're not really working a 12-Step program, you're working an altered program that you created using the 12-Steps as a model and base.

However, I do want to be clear on my gripe regarding all this. I have no issue with anyone altering the Steps to suit their needs, nor am I making a value judgment regarding the Steps or Buddhism. However, I do believe the 12-Steps, as written, are often incompatible with other spiritual beliefs. And I take umbrage with those who suggest (often vehemently so) that just about anyone, from any background, with any religious, spiritual or philosophical belief can work the Steps. They often can't IMO, at least not without significantly altering their beliefs or the essence of 12-Steps.

schnappi99

From the Big Book itself;

"Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization .... By
personal religious affiliation, we include Catho-lics,
Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and
Buddhists. More than 15% of us are women."

My own opinion is that the only requirement about one's higher power is that its not oneself, and the properties of the higher power need only be something that works for the individual- at whatever level of defintion is suitable to them. In effect, an outside issue as they say.

I'm not praying to a diety in my morning prayers, I've not had to incorporate anything of the Bible for instance- but I have gained a lot of respect for the Bible and its followers. When I got to steps 6,7 its true that I didn't ask God for character defects to be removed, but I did follow what ChuckC suggested in one of his recordings; Having learned something about the defects, I could then choose to start acting like they had been removed... and it worked. The obsessions are considerably eased, lust turns to desire (which I can live with), fear and anger come and go without wrapping me around the axle, resentment is now a warning flag that I need to letting go of something rather than something to get worked up over. I've done a large 5th step and a smaller one with my sponsor, I fully expect to work it again be it big or small as things arise in the future.

When we use a Christian prayer in the AA/Alanon groups I go to I am referring to the Buddha nature shared by all, and the Dharma & Sangha of my sect. When we close with the Lord's Prayer I'm more into trying to appreciate & understand the attitude described within than getting wrapped up in theological questions.

When Step 11 talks about conscious contact, that to me means study and service- which means I invest time and effort in my practice not just reading but going out and doing it- I choose to take my body so that my mind may follow. I can see recovery work in my life, just like I can see the 3 Poisons- imperfectly, but better than before.

When Step 12 talks about carrying the message to others, so I can keep it- I am reminded that I am not in the world to lecture and promote but be an example and its up to me to make the example attractive & helpful- or not.

But you make a good point about Step 3- where I turn over my will. I remember the study meeting where I did that. It was early on in recovery and I was feeling the burn <a lot>, so as we were meditating I realized that I had in front of me a spiritual practice I am familiar and comfortable with, and the encouragement is to just try it and see. I am not required to do anything, the 12 Steps are suggested so I am free to do an experiment. So I decided to try and see; surrendering my will, which to me (then and now) means to Do The Things in my 12 Step program and Do The Things in my practice- just like they say to do them, and the changes in my karma and my life will reflect my recovery.

Really, the only doubts I had were a while later when I really started identifying with the AA's despite not having the "allergy".. something that is occasionally heard in Alanon shares. It was bugging be because I felt like I didn't fit, so I mentioned it to my sponsor (a double-winner) who thought it was not suprising or of concern which gave me lot of comfort. So now I regularly go to a few open AA meetings because the BB and 12-and-12 speak to me so often & recuse myself from discussions related to booze.. no big deal.. just Doing The Things.

zerothehero

Whatever works for you works for you whether it is following an existing recovery plan or tweaking one or making up your own. I believe Kevin Griffin tweaks the 12 steps. I like Noah Levine's approach (Refuge Recovery) because though he acknowledges that 12 Step programs helped him, he created his own steps that have some similarities and some striking differences when compared to the 12 Steps.

My challenges with the 12 Steps come not only from the books but from the comments at meetings that are a reflection of the books. I don't go to local AA meetings (in part because I live in a small town and it's not truly anonymous), but when I travel I sometimes drop in and it seems the majority of the sharing focuses on the belief that without God they would be drunk or dead. That's fine for them, but it doesn't work for me. Then most meetings I've attended end with The Lord's Prayer.

Breaking it down:

Step One: A Buddhist could argue with this, but I'm not going to.

Step Two: I don't believe any Buddhist scholar would say that a "Power (capital P) greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity," but rather, that our suffering is caused by craving and that we can begin to diminish that suffering through practice (Eightfold Path).

Step Three: No Buddhist scholar would say we could or should "turn our will and our lives over to the care of God (capital G) as we understood Him (capital H)." Rather, we are responsible for ending our own suffering. There is no Divine (capital D) intervention.

Step Four: Buddhists would applaud this, I think.

Step Five: Drop God (capital G) and Buddhists would be fine with it.

Step Six: First of all, there is no God to remove defects of character, and the distinction is subtle, but I don't believe Buddhists would consider them defects. When I'm in AA meetings, I feel compassion for those who believe they are defected, and I'm personally not entirely convinced of the disease model. At any rate, a Buddhist scholar would say no outside Power is going to remove them if they even exist.

Step 7: Again, there is no "Him" to remove squat.

Step 8: Buddhists would applaud this step.

Step 9: This one, too.

Step 10: This one, too.

Step 11: Meditation, of course, but conscious contact with God or Him, and "praying only for knowledge of His will..." To a nontheist this is straight up delusion.

Step 12: Awakening, sure, but carrying the message sounds a bit like evangelicalism. Compassion and service, yes.

So, the departure is not just about theism vs. nontheism, but also about who or how we can reduce our suffering. The 12 Steps imply we must have a Higher Power to help us through. Buddhists say you're on your own in that area, but your sangha or community support is extremely important. Buddhism focuses on personal responsibility while the 12 Steps encourage us to somehow be healed by a Higher Power (Steps 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 11) while also encouraging responsibility (1, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 12).

It's almost unfortunate that I have thought so deeply about this because living in a rural community I have no support system other than you guys, and telling people I'm a secular Buddhist or humanist, well, I might as well say I'm an atheist or communist or terrorist (though I am none of these things). More and more, though, I sense I don't need a recovery support system as much as I could just use some healthy social outlets.

SillyHuman

Thanks for the well-thought out post. Thanks everyone for the intelligent, informative discussion.

Zero, I share your pain of living in a rural area. The meetings in big cities lose a lot of the Judeo-Christian flavor, but there is still no mistaking that it is deity, a very specific deity, that the steps refer to.

I likely will not discuss openly how I am working the steps because that invites big book thumping, a/k/a bullying.

zerothehero

Silly, I hear you about "big book thumping." I hear a lot about "doing it right" and "if you don't follow the program you will fail." I basically started with the meditation part of the 11th step and worked through the steps that made sense to me.

Time2Rise

Very well written Zero; I agree completely with everything you've written.

Chadalkieaddikt

Hmmm I get what you saying as I feel ownership of my recovery like my addictions once owned me is how I will survive One Day At A Time
Thanx

PaulDaveSmithJo

First, I’ll state that whatever method one finds to bring them to sobriety, that that method is good. Whether it’s AA, Buddhist, or a synchronism of both. What matters is that we find a method, and that that method gets us and keeps us sober.

I speak here only of my experience. I am a former member of AA. I am not formally a Buddhist, but a devout, traditional Roman Catholic.

I was a member of AA for some time, and that membership kept me in the drinking game. The notion that I had a “disease” provided a ready-made excuse on which to fall back whenever I drank. I was “diseased.” I would always be “diseased.” I would never, for the rest of my days, ever know freedom. This kept me in the drinking game for many, many years.

Buddhism, on the other hand, gave me release. The First Noble Truth – that there is suffering – could be seen to be compatible with AA. The Second Noble Truth parts ways with the 12 step approach, and teaches that my suffering is the result not of a disease, but of my failure to recognize the transient, ephemeral nature of being, and of my seeking illusory and transient pleasures. The Third Noble Truth is where things really diverge. This Truth teaches me that there can be an end to suffering. This idea is radically antithetical to the core of 12 step approaches. The Fourth Noble Truth tells me how to annihilate the enemy of illusion and craving. Now I no longer have to spend the rest of my days looking over my shoulder waiting for the enemy to attack. I don’t have to wait for a deity to save me in the way that a man might put his finger into a glass of water to save a drowning insect.

The crypto-calvinism which is the heart and soul of the 12 step approach, i.e., the notion of the powerless and insufficiency of the self and the necessity of divine intervention is radically at odds with the central teaching (and method) of Buddhism – particularly in its application to overcoming addictions.

The early Buddhist text, the Dhammapada, is something of a treatise on the relation of the individual to her/his mind. It is in this relation that freedom from wrong thought, from illusion and temptation, that one has a means to liberation:

“Only a man himself can be the master of himself: who else from outside could be his master? When the master and servant are one, then there is true help and self-possession” (Dhammapada 12.160).

In this way of viewing the matter, if liberation from such a thing as addiction is gained via a master other than the self, one must ask: is it really liberation at all? Can an exterior master, a master other than the self, free one from illusion and temptation?

"I have gone round in vain the cycles of many lives ever striving to find the builder of the house of life and death . . . But now I have seen thee, housebuilder: never more will you build this house. The rafters of illusion are broken, the walls of craving are destroyed, the floor of desire is destroyed" (Dhammapada 11.153-154).

The house is our world of illusion to which we uncritically surrender. We ourselves are the housebuilder. Only we ourselves can destroy the illusory house that we've constructed in our mind.

"What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: our life is the creation of our mind" (Dhammapada 1.1).

I simply do not see this kind of freedom and hope, or this sense of autonomous responsibility, in the 12 step approach.

stevieg46

Great Thread .

I am a recovering Catholic near 70 yrs old came into AA 43 yrs ago , made a complete mess of most things , heard the word God and immediately switched off as I understandably associated the word God with religion due to Irish nuns and Maris Brothers and Priests , Hellfire brimstone all sinners repent or hell etc .terrible dysfunctional religious brainwashing childhood from alcoholic home and sexual abuse.

Over the years I have read mostly everything from religion to esoteric eastern philosophy , I dismissed religion as I could not believe in God who I didn't believe in our understand AA suggests God as you understand him .

I will be as I firmly believe 10 years ''recovered '' on March 12th , it took me near 33 years to come to believe , funnily enough it came from the NT in Luke when Jesus is asked ''will I be beside you in the kingdom of heaven'' Jesus replied '' the kingdom of God is Within '' that changed my life and my whole outlook in life. I believe Jesus (if he existed ? ) was a Spiritual being having a Human experience , and likewise for the whole of mankind , I do not see Jesus as God , I look on Jesus as a prophet and my brother, and mankind are my sisters and brothers , I believe and understand which is very crucial whatever you want to call God / Creator / Buddha / Krishna / Divine whatever ''that is my understanding and my Higher Power '' everything comes from within , I do not practice or believe in formal prayer they are words put together by others , I meditate and use my own words when talking inwardly to the power within , I sometimes call the power Dad its not important its what I believe and understand , I believe in the 10 commandments , I have had and experienced many ''spiritual experiences '' and I have also had a profound ''spiritual awakening '' through the practice of the 12 Steps using my understanding of my HP , conscious contact which I attempt at all times to practice is for me to live my live as best as I can and treat all mankind with love , What does it matter if people say God is love or this is love or what other spiritual figures are called ? they are all higher powers in my mind and ''enlightened '' that to me is the exact same as ''spiritual awakening '' different paths/ways heading in the same direction , I had to unlearn my things and get rid of most of my old ideas , to me simplicity is a good outlook and practice , I try and help others when I can , I respect everyone's faith belief or religion .

Along with the verse from Luke , Paul said ''all men are Gods '' Jesus said ''my father and I are one '' the bible in the beginning says God created man in his image and likeness ,to me that means God is me , and I am God (no confusion ) Donald Walsch book ''Conversations with God'' book 3 states all mankind has a soul and collectivetly we are all part of the ''Whole '' 1 '' Soul'' God or Creator whatever ? to me it makes sense and it has worked greatly for me .

I go about everyday life accompanied with my HP /Dad , trying to treat every one, every thing , all nature in a kind and loving manner ,most times I can do this successfully it depends on my effort , I make mistakes and start again , I have a tremendous life and it is beyond my wildest dreams .

I also believe in Karma , reincarnation I will either be right or wrong it matters little to me.

I have to thank 3 Books, Conversations with God ,Autobiography of a Yogi by Parhamansa Yogananda ( self realization ), AA s Big Book , and looking at it in a complete spiritual manner the New Testament some parts that I understand and believe , all suggestions from various sources that work for me

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006

Boleo

I've been saying that for years. That's why I to am a "former AA member".


http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post5814497
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...AA & Recovery)
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...fuge Recovery)
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...Step Buddhist)

schnappi99

Dunno, where this is life there is suffering but Buddhism and 12-step teaches me that misery is optional. Buddhism and 12-Step both tell me that trouble arises and disappears and that its up to me to compound trouble through my actions or not.

12-Step does not require me to believe in a diety of any kind, it suggests <only> that I find some kind of higher power that works for me. Clearly the language of the program is Christian but it has been quite sufficient for me to substitute Buddhism when the books say God.

I asked some Buddhist scholars, Tibetan, Theravadan and Mahayanan about this. A couple of them were in recovery themselves, but they found no difficulty interpreting the intent of the 12-Steps from a Buddhist standpoint. The question that was most interesting to them was "surrendering the will/life" part, that seemed a very difficult step to take from the standpoint of a mind not at ease- in the grips of addiction etc.

I spent a while contrasting the Buddhist precepts with 12-Step, also in excellent accord. Granted the Buddhist precepts are more extensive, to be expected since the 12-Step focus is very narrow.

I am fully responsible to work my own 12-step program; if I work it or not I get the respective results. I have complete freedom in this regard. Sort of like Chuck C says, I have complete freedom of action, but I get the consequences of whatever I do.

It is within my power to work on clearing away delusion or to build it up; I can work my 4th/5th step or quit working the steps. I can do the meditation and study of the Dharma and try to act accordingly. I can read my 12-Step study material and likewise try to act. Either way I get results.

I can't speak to alcoholism- I'm in Alanon. Its very clear to me I can revert to old form in the space of one thought, I have the slips to prove it. For my part, my character defects are held in abeyance through the daily maintenance of my spiritual condition.

Note that I am not my higher power- I am not the one dispensing consequences, nor am I compelling anything to happen. My job is to accept what arises and choose my actions mindfully.

zerothehero

Here's another angle on this discussion, and spoiler alert, it may sound judgmental. At times I've felt not so much that it was the 12 Steps that rubbed me the wrong way as it was the 12 Steppers in the meetings. I know people are just sharing their perspectives and experience, but I also get a sense of evangelical preachiness. Ending meetings with The Lord's Prayer is just too much for me.

stevieg46

.

My feelings exactly even though I love the lords prayer , but how can the preamble be read out saying ''not allied with any sect denomination, organization or institution ? '' it is a prayer adopted by Christianity into several branches of religion , Jesus supposedly recites the prayer , Jesus was not a Christian or Catholic or Protestant Jesus was a Jew , so one might say it is a Jewish prayer , yet Judaism do not regard this prayer or recognize it in the Torah , they do not regard Jesus as God , thy see him as a prophet .

Funnily enough Catholics and Protestants have different endings , so they cannot even agree on it (grin )

Back to AA meetings I have spoken out many times about this , if a new member or newish member goes to a meeting that ends with L P , they immediately think that AA ''is a religious program'' .

Group members vote on this , I have been advised to ''keep an open mind '' so I explain that they all are guilty of self will run right , they do not like that (grin ) and telling me to keep an open mind is simply a way of justifying their behavior and doing what they like .

Their is a solution to this of course , all they need to do is contact GSO and inform them they want to open a meeting for ''Christians '' same as Women meetings , Gay meetings , or meetings attended by Public Personalities , heard they have a meeting for ''policemen '' so its quite simple , but laughingly most do not want to go to any lengths , they just want the prayer . take care.

Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .