Is illogical and irrational thinking a common theme with alcoholics?
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Is illogical and irrational thinking a common theme with alcoholics?
My AH left me and our kids a little over 2 weeks ago. Yes, he has tried to come back and I have told him no. He is at a detox center right now and has been calling. I think he went there because his alcoholic ex girlfriend that he left us for got tired of him after a week and kicked him out. He spent 2 nights in his car (and it was cold! And his back window is busted out so it's really cold) and he didn't want to sleep in his car again. Anyway, he has been calling and I have talked to him a few times but every time I do it turns into an argument. His thinking is completely irrational and illogical and it almost always feels like we are having 2 different conversations. Case in point: I asked him yesterday why he continued to meet up with aforementioned ex behind my back and talk to her about our problems when he promised me this summer before he left rehab he wouldn't do that anymore. He said he did in secret and behind my back because he didn't want me to find out. What? And he seemed to think that was an acceptable answer. I think it's crazy. Although I believe it's true, I couldn't believe that he acted like that was an ok think to tell me. Most of his explanations and reasons for doing things are irrational. The things he says are irrational and illogical. Our issues, I am convinced, most people would understand are because of the stupid things he does and says. He doesn't get that, though. He spent the first few years we were together telling me how beautiful 2 of his exes were and that they always wore makeup. I don't wear makeup often. I don't see the point. I work from home and don't go out often. Then he told me about a week before he left that he used to think that one day I would get so tired of looking at myself that I would do something about it and look like a supermodel by the time I'm 40. What? Who says that? He did. And when I told him that was offensive , he said it was meant as a compliment. Do most alcoholics have such a twisted way of thinking?
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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From my experience, yes. He sounds a lot like my ex-who is an alcohokic. Twisted, illogical and irrational was almost an everyday thing in our marriage toward the end. Take care of yourself and your kids and think hard about letting him back (if you so choose) until he's showed a long track record of sobriety.
Peace you you-wishing y'all a Happy Thanksgiving!
Peace you you-wishing y'all a Happy Thanksgiving!
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Well yes.
Trying to have a discussion with an active alcoholic is sort of like trying to get five toddlers dressed to go outside in the winter: by the time you think you're done, you're back at the place you started again.
I would encourage you to stick to your guns with the "don't come home" thing. Because being a bit uncomfortable may be exactly what he needs right now. Alone and uncomfortable can do wonders.
Trying to have a discussion with an active alcoholic is sort of like trying to get five toddlers dressed to go outside in the winter: by the time you think you're done, you're back at the place you started again.
I would encourage you to stick to your guns with the "don't come home" thing. Because being a bit uncomfortable may be exactly what he needs right now. Alone and uncomfortable can do wonders.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
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He's just trying to find a warm bed and someone to use if exGF kicked him out.
It sounds like you are aware of this but by talking to him, you are making yourself vulnerable to his manipulations.
He made his bed when he abandoned you and your children.
Let him find another place to stay and keep the peace on the holidays for your kids.
They don't need to be around the arguing and nasty energy.
They only have one childhood, and you are modeling what is acceptable in a relationship.
What he did clearly was not--you deserve better.
It sounds like you are aware of this but by talking to him, you are making yourself vulnerable to his manipulations.
He made his bed when he abandoned you and your children.
Let him find another place to stay and keep the peace on the holidays for your kids.
They don't need to be around the arguing and nasty energy.
They only have one childhood, and you are modeling what is acceptable in a relationship.
What he did clearly was not--you deserve better.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
heather.....without going into a long diatribe about it.....the short answer is YES.
Both when they are drinking....and when they are sober between bouts of drinking.
There is a saying...."what do you get when you sober up a horsethief?.....a sober horsethief".
Even when they give up the bottle....recovery doesn't come until they have spent one or two years ....in a program to change their thinking and attitude ....and, finally, their actions. It is a disease of the thinking....as well as the drinking....
It sounds like you are expecting "normal" behavior from someone who can't give it.
You are going to be so continually disappointed, I fear.....because your expectations are so high.....
Just take a look at the past...and, that tells you what the future is going to be like.....
Honestly, didn't you really expect that he would want to come crawling back to a warm nest as soon as his current whim went south?
If you want better for your existence....it is up to you to make the changes that will offer yourself a better life......
That may sound unfair and you probably feel that this relationship is the key to your happiness......but, it isn't. YOU are holding the key to your happiness.....
I think it is smart of you not to let him come back to the house.....
It would just be more of the same......
dandylion
Both when they are drinking....and when they are sober between bouts of drinking.
There is a saying...."what do you get when you sober up a horsethief?.....a sober horsethief".
Even when they give up the bottle....recovery doesn't come until they have spent one or two years ....in a program to change their thinking and attitude ....and, finally, their actions. It is a disease of the thinking....as well as the drinking....
It sounds like you are expecting "normal" behavior from someone who can't give it.
You are going to be so continually disappointed, I fear.....because your expectations are so high.....
Just take a look at the past...and, that tells you what the future is going to be like.....
Honestly, didn't you really expect that he would want to come crawling back to a warm nest as soon as his current whim went south?
If you want better for your existence....it is up to you to make the changes that will offer yourself a better life......
That may sound unfair and you probably feel that this relationship is the key to your happiness......but, it isn't. YOU are holding the key to your happiness.....
I think it is smart of you not to let him come back to the house.....
It would just be more of the same......
dandylion
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Originally Posted by heather59901 
I asked him yesterday why he continued to meet up with aforementioned ex behind my back and talk to her about our problems when he promised me this summer before he left rehab he wouldn't do that anymore. He said he did in secret and behind my back because he didn't want me to find out. What? And he seemed to think that was an acceptable answer. I think it's crazy. Although I believe it's true, I couldn't believe that he acted like that was an ok think to tell me.
Look, he is a drunk. And someone you can't trust. Forget about the lying about drinking--all alcoholics do that. He lied about maintaining a relationship with someone he is still emotionally involved with. He is also a jerk who apparently doesn't understand or doesn't care about your feelings.
Sounds to me like he gave you a gift by leaving. My suggestion is that you roll with it and work on creating a nice life for you and your kids--one you're not likely to have if you let him back into your home.
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Texas
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Friend-just wanted to add. I recall how many times my then husband would tell me he just wabted to sit at home and do whatever he wabted abd didn't wabt any drama in his life-never once seeing HE created the drama, scary situations and abuse! My ex rationalized away everything bc he truly didn't care (and still doesbt) about my feelings or the kids. All about him. Yours is doing the same thing....poor me, poor me, pour he another drink.
You can create a happy safe life for you and the kids-I'm proof (and there are many others here that have done the same). Peace to you today.
You can create a happy safe life for you and the kids-I'm proof (and there are many others here that have done the same). Peace to you today.
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Heather I remember your post from when he left you and how badly he behaved, taking your car then blaming you for retrieving it. Also the fact that he would 'play' hit you on the bum and disparage you if you said it hurt.
I don't know if it's the alcohol or just the fact that he only cares for himself, but I don't doubt that if his EXGF hadn't kicked him out he wouldn't be calling, trying to come home. He seems to be using you for what he can get.
I don't think talking to him achieves anything, especially as he's shown you who he is many times.
I don't know if it's the alcohol or just the fact that he only cares for himself, but I don't doubt that if his EXGF hadn't kicked him out he wouldn't be calling, trying to come home. He seems to be using you for what he can get.
I don't think talking to him achieves anything, especially as he's shown you who he is many times.
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Originally Posted by heather59901
I think he went there because his alcoholic ex girlfriend that he left us for got tired of him after a week and kicked him out.
If he's serious about the detox, he should be spending more time focusing on his own sobriety and dealing with the newfound emotions he's been burying with alcohol through counseling, and not on immediately finding a relationship to sponge off of. Until he has a year or two of sobriety under his belt, I would consider his act of going to detox a complete sham designed to suck you back in under false hopes.
He spent the first few years we were together telling me how beautiful 2 of his exes were and that they always wore makeup. I don't wear makeup often. I don't see the point. I work from home and don't go out often. Then he told me about a week before he left that he used to think that one day I would get so tired of looking at myself that I would do something about it and look like a supermodel by the time I'm 40. What? Who says that? He did. And when I told him that was offensive , he said it was meant as a compliment.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Heather....I just have to ask (please, God, forgive me).......
Can I assume that "Romeo" is a cross between brad Pitt and William Levy, himself....??!
Is it possible that I might have seen him on the cover of Gentleman's Quarterly at some point?
Hope your Thanksgiving has some point of brightness.....
sincerely,
dandylion
Can I assume that "Romeo" is a cross between brad Pitt and William Levy, himself....??!
Is it possible that I might have seen him on the cover of Gentleman's Quarterly at some point?
Hope your Thanksgiving has some point of brightness.....
sincerely,
dandylion
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,826
Well yes,of course, it's a disease of thinking and drinking.
Originally Posted by heather59901
My AH left me and our kids a little over 2 weeks ago. Yes, he has tried to come back and I have told him no. He is at a detox center right now and has been calling. I think he went there because his alcoholic ex girlfriend that he left us for got tired of him after a week and kicked him out. He spent 2 nights in his car (and it was cold! And his back window is busted out so it's really cold) and he didn't want to sleep in his car again. Anyway, he has been calling and I have talked to him a few times but every time I do it turns into an argument. His thinking is completely irrational and illogical and it almost always feels like we are having 2 different conversations. Case in point: I asked him yesterday why he continued to meet up with aforementioned ex behind my back and talk to her about our problems when he promised me this summer before he left rehab he wouldn't do that anymore. He said he did in secret and behind my back because he didn't want me to find out. What? And he seemed to think that was an acceptable answer. I think it's crazy. Although I believe it's true, I couldn't believe that he acted like that was an ok think to tell me. Most of his explanations and reasons for doing things are irrational. The things he says are irrational and illogical. Our issues, I am convinced, most people would understand are because of the stupid things he does and says. He doesn't get that, though. He spent the first few years we were together telling me how beautiful 2 of his exes were and that they always wore makeup. I don't wear makeup often. I don't see the point. I work from home and don't go out often. Then he told me about a week before he left that he used to think that one day I would get so tired of looking at myself that I would do something about it and look like a supermodel by the time I'm 40. What? Who says that? He did. And when I told him that was offensive , he said it was meant as a compliment. Do most alcoholics have such a twisted way of thinking?
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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Hugs to you. I'm a recovering alcoholic and it's taken me close to two years of diligently working my program to begin to be able to be a minimally decent parent and spouse.
Trust your instinct, detach, and find the strength that's inside you to make a good life.
Trust your instinct, detach, and find the strength that's inside you to make a good life.
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: west coast
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I think there are two issues here: 1) Yes, alcoholics/addicts are irrational and illogical - otherwise they would not be able to condone their own behaviors 2) I think his answer to you was very rational and logical. He did not tell you because he didn't want you to know. That is logical and rational - the missing part is that he did not keep his agreement with you. He told you the "truth" - his actions are telling you the truth - don't go into denial because you want him to be different than he is (I know about this from experience). Good luck.
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The beginning of the end for me and my alcoholic ex included his admission that he always told me what I wanted to hear and did whatever he wished. Why? Because if he was honest with me I'd be mad at him and probably leave.
Rational or not, it's 100% selfish. You can't be happy with someone who is 100% selfish, nor will you be able to get through to them and see your point of view. Because they are 100% selfish.
To me, alcoholism is a very selfish disease. The only way to recover from that frame of mind is to recover from alcoholism. He needs to accept recovery 100% before he will ever change.
Rational or not, it's 100% selfish. You can't be happy with someone who is 100% selfish, nor will you be able to get through to them and see your point of view. Because they are 100% selfish.
To me, alcoholism is a very selfish disease. The only way to recover from that frame of mind is to recover from alcoholism. He needs to accept recovery 100% before he will ever change.
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reading yer post,heather, reminded me of something i heard shortly after getting sober: an alcoholic stops growing mentally and emotionally after their very first ever drink.
reads like a conversation with an adult preteen boy.
now, onto you.
"Our issues, I am convinced, most people would understand are because of the stupid things he does and says. "
im gonna have to disagree some. im thinkin the issues are a wee bit more than that. even ifya didnt listen there would be issues.
maybe its time to take care of you. find oht why you allow the behavior to happen
reads like a conversation with an adult preteen boy.
now, onto you.
"Our issues, I am convinced, most people would understand are because of the stupid things he does and says. "
im gonna have to disagree some. im thinkin the issues are a wee bit more than that. even ifya didnt listen there would be issues.
maybe its time to take care of you. find oht why you allow the behavior to happen
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So much good advice here...
I agree, Christmas came early. If you at entertaining taking him back, think about this for a second: his abusive, alcoholic ex who he lied o you about for ages got tired of his antics. Wow a prince like that, I'd scoop him right up!
Joking aside, it sounds like this guy did his level best to keep you feeling like ****. The first two years you were with him, he compared you to his exes? That's just not good partner behavior. Maybe ask yourself why you put up with that early on, then the escalating bad behavior after that?
This is your get out of jail free moment, I wouldn't let that bag of crazy back in.
I agree, Christmas came early. If you at entertaining taking him back, think about this for a second: his abusive, alcoholic ex who he lied o you about for ages got tired of his antics. Wow a prince like that, I'd scoop him right up!
Joking aside, it sounds like this guy did his level best to keep you feeling like ****. The first two years you were with him, he compared you to his exes? That's just not good partner behavior. Maybe ask yourself why you put up with that early on, then the escalating bad behavior after that?
This is your get out of jail free moment, I wouldn't let that bag of crazy back in.
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Oops and to answer your question about alcoholic logic... Alcoholics in active addiction completely lack logic. All we can think about is clearing the way towards our next drink. We will push people away, lie about our drinking and our intentions, etc. when a drunk is drinking, our brains are all scrambled with booze and yeah we say dumb things.
Most alcoholics have other stuff going on too. Reasons why we got sucked into drinking in the first place. Until we really put our whole being into recovery (not just "not drinking"), we can't really be trusted. I was a trustworthy person again after a few months, but it probably took a year for me to really start thinking like a rational human again.
Most alcoholics have other stuff going on too. Reasons why we got sucked into drinking in the first place. Until we really put our whole being into recovery (not just "not drinking"), we can't really be trusted. I was a trustworthy person again after a few months, but it probably took a year for me to really start thinking like a rational human again.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
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I really appreciate all of the great advice and support I have gotten here. I have cut off all contact with my ex and blocked his number. You are all right. He actually did the best thing he could have done by leaving. And the time and space has given me the clarity that I do want off this hamster wheel and out of the unhealthy cycle of him lying and drinking, me complaining, him leaving and me letting him come back. I realized I really am happy without him here. I have been in counseling for about 6 weeks now and the combo of that, the advice I have gotten from here, the support of those around me and focusing on more important things like my kids, my work and my home have done wonders. I just wanted to say thanks for all of the support I have received from here. It really helps a lot to here it from people who have either been with alcoholics or even those that are in recovery. It has given me clarity and understanding.
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