amy55

I think many times people come here wondering if their SO would stop being abusive if they stopped drinking, it's like we can't really answer that question. Of course an alcoholic is abusive, he isn't emotionally present. He/she self medicated and can't or doesn't want to feel emotions.

I think there is a difference between someone who is abusive or someone who is an alcoholic, or someone that is both.

I think abusiveness and alcoholism is 2 different thing. I am an RA. I was abusive. I think I was only abusive when I felt so threatened that my primal fear took over. I think the true act of abusiveness is when you use this to try to control and manipulate another person.

I feel that when you "walk on eggshells" everyday, or you feel like you are in a "minefield", I used to call it the "DMZ zone" and you do not feel safe in your own house, then you are in an abusive relationship.

I do know I am on a forum about alcoholism. I still do think that some people try to blame the alcohol, for something more serious. I am not saying that alcoholism isn't serious. I'm saying people come here thinking sometimes that if he/she stops drinking, the abuse will stop.

Sometimes yes, most likely "no"

I've been triggered this whole week with contact from my ex. Will be divorced 5 years in Dec. Had contact because of a pension division.

I really want to say, if DV is involved, and that doesn't just mean domestic violence, it also means domestic abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, religious abuse, sexual abuse, financial abuse...etc, if you were normally happy and now find yourself depressed, if you stopped doing thing you liked to because you became afraid to like things......

Please call 1-800-799-SAFE. They are there 24/7. You don't have to give your name, you don't have to tell them where you live.

I really do appreciate the people that come to this forum to tell their story, because they had no one else that would understand what they were talking about. I think we all came here here for that same reason.

I remember one night, that I was afraid to even go on the abuse forum that I belonged to. No one else there got the silent treatment, or the disappearing act as long as I did. I thought I was a freak. I called the DV # 1-800-799-SAFE. They talked to me like I was a person, I don't remember the last time I talked to someone who talked to me as a person. I only talked to my ex when he was talking to me. I had totally isolated myself.

I will now be divorced 5 years this Dec. What helped me the most was the DV hotline.

amy

Liveitwell

Great info amy!! I too found a lot of support talking to the DV people....a lot of supprt and strength.
Btw-I so very much love how you described your abuse vs an abuser. That is exactly how my therapist explained my actions vs my husbands-now ex . I was being threatened and abused by him in so many ways-and saw my kids getting the sake treatment - that one time in particular I absolutely did lash out at him. It's what drove me to recovery as I knew that was not me and I had been so shattered by him that I needed help. It was scary to see such primal anger-and I'm glad I reached out, got to the bottom of my anger and healed. Contrast that to my ex who abuses to control, intimidate, threaten and manipulate-it's a power trip for him, and it's covert but fortunately many others have witnessed his mask coming off. He's been seen by his actions-not his lie laced words. He is an abuser-he was raised by an abusive father and a mother that still coddles him and supports him and was abusive to me on multiple occasions. He was primed from birth.
Thank you for posting this thread-it's a question I asked myself for years....I wondered if they were two separate issues and in his case, it's pretty obvious alcoholism is just the tip of the iceberg. The rage that simmers beneath the surface of my ex is palpable. And it's not just me noticing anymore.
Really though, I keep telling myself what others have said so many times-it doesn't matter what you call it-IT is just not okay. Period.

Peace to you, Amy. Have a great weekend, friend!

amy55

There were many times that I lost it also. That's why I used to lock myself in the car in the garage and listen to music, trying to drown things out. Those people will follow you all over the place. You leave, they wait for you to come back, you leave the room they follow you. They just won't leave you in peace. You try to watch TV in another room, they will shut the sound of their TV off so they know what you are watching, and they will come in to start that you are a stupid moron for watching that. You become afraid to even breathe too loud in your own house, they might hear you, and attack you. (verbally, sexually, or physically).

amy55

I would like to address this to people who are drinking that really don't want to, or to people that feel that they need to quit drinking.

I was there also. I quit so many times, it wasn't because I thought I was an alcoholic, it was because I just didn't want to drink. I was seeing how destructive it was. I quit many times for 2 years at a time. Ok, will say the first 2 days, I might have missed drinking, then I really didn't want to anymore. You start to hear, "what do you think, you think you are perfect"? Your some kind of angel? you are nothing. Then they call you Dr. this and Dr. that. Pretty soon you are back to drinking, just to shut them the h3ll up. Then you are back to sleeping in a locked car in the garage again. Then your chance of getting out is gone. You have all of these good thoughts of your future when you are drinking, but you can't carry them out the next day. or the day after. Your life is being sucked out of you everyday. You start to feel paralyzed. The only thing that you feel that helps is to numb yourself, or to try to get those visions of freedom back into your head again, but they are all gone. All you are doing is sleeping in a locked car in the garage and afraid to go into your own home.

amy

hexx

OMG that use to drive me nuts! All I wanted to do was to stop fighting, have five minutes of peace, whatever. But like a bad shadow I couldn't shake, there he was...all in my space (both externally and in my head). Didn't matter which room I ended up in..I bounce from space to space and just hope he would hurry up and pass out. I was always afraid and angry (which of course he would use against me. ) It's so nice now...I was sit in what ever room I darn well please.

amy55

If you did actually leave and come back, OMG, you knew you might be hit. It didn't make an abuser cool off. It multiplied his abuse because he thought you were trying to get away.

amy55

I think I needed to say one more thing here. A lot of woman get diagnosed with things, a lot of men don't. I am not being gender based here. Most men are not diagnosed with a Personality Disorder, because they are more likely to be diagnosed as an alcoholic, a substance abuser, in jail, diagnosed incorrectly, or living amongst others while they terrorized their own family but act like Mr Nice to everyone else. Not saying that there aren't woman that do the say thing as evidenced by this forum.


All I am saying is sometimes a persons behavior is not just because or due to alcoholism. Alcoholism is a self medication for many mental illnesses. Sometimes it keeps those in tact, but after awhile they just come out full force.

Do I think being abusive is a mental illness? Yes I do.

I would appreciate any discussion on this, because I think it will bring out a discussion of mental illness.

I would never say that all abuse is a mental illness, I do want people to know that abuse can stem from many reasons.

In most cases that I have ever seen or heard about, believe it or not abusers are able to control themselves in most situations, except for seriously ill people. Think psychopaths, not afraid of the law.

amy55

I was going to edit my post because it might have been gender based, but I think the posters here know me well enough to know that I am not gender based.

Liveitwell

Yikes-I see a lot of myself in the way you described the drinker following the spouse around. Yep-I absolutely did that when I was drinking-he did as well. I definitely was out of control and did not act in the best ways, or decent at all, when I was actively drinking. Thre are a million reasons I stopped drinking-this is just one if them.. As he started sliding more and more into alcoholism and further down the rabbit hole, I felt the shift and I got so frustrated and angry bc I was hurt-he just started avoiding meh and his daughter to drink-almost daily. I would sometimes call him over and over during the day just to try and get a shred of time with him and also to tell him how unhappy I was with something he did the night before (yes-I most have been great to live with!). I was so lonely and so profoundly disappointed and sad with him (at times-not all the time) that those feelings drove a lot of my actions.
The first time he acted abusively to me was our wedding night-and then two weeks later. There were many more nights and in the first few years he apologized and told me he didn't know what was wrong with him and cried for hours and hours apologizing. I believed him. As his alcoholo progressed and I slowly went down to crazy town as expected with him, he started blaming his abuse on me-telling me it was my fault he treated me the way he did-that I taught him to be abusive (classic sign of an abuser). And then I saw him do the same to his oldest daughter and I saw the fear in her eyes and the hurt s she too was blamed for his abhorrent behavior. I too, I felt as he said many times, was blamed for not making him happy or making him better-those were my roles (according to him) - I was supposed to make him better. All the while he sober told me how amazing I was but drunk told me how I was nothing, I should be dead, nobody liked me, everyone thought I was crazy-yep, heard those many times-and was told it was my fault he treated me the way he did. Then when I failed at making him better and acted like a normal human being with needs- that's when the bad stuff really happened.
Anyway , I could go on and on....just suffice it to say I started standing up for myself and my daughters and told him boundaries (I sucked at these for a while) that I would not tolerate his abuse-and was sneered at, laughed at, bc I called what he was doing abuse. Yep-classic abuser.

LexieCat

I don't think intimate partner violence is, generally, the product of mental illness. Certainly there are mentally ill/personality disordered abusers. But in my experience the majority of them are simply men (and yes, there are female abusers but they are a small minority compared to men) who benefit by controlling their partners.

Lundy Bancroft's book explains it pretty well. These are generally men who are capable of controlling their conduct (witness how many of them are able to immediately calm down and manipulate the police when they respond), and the violence is not displayed indiscriminately against others but only against the partner.

"Abuse" is a tricky word. From the victim's perspective, violence is violence. Regardless of the cause, everyone has a right to be safe and free of fear in their own homes and families.

In the criminal justice system, we often use the word "batterer" to describe those who use violence in the interest of exercising power and control over a partner (and violence is not limited to physical violence), as distinguished from "situational violence" (violence in response to a specific situation), "pathological violence" (violence that is a product of mental illness), or "reactive/responsive violence" (violence sometimes engaged in by victims in response to violence against them--not necessarily self-defense). It may not make a difference from the victim's perspective, but it makes a difference in terms of how the criminal justice system responds--which defendants are considered most blameworthy, who will benefit most from treatment or other interventions, etc.

I think the most important take-away for victims is that you (and your children) have the right to be safe, and ultimately, whatever the cause of the violence, safety is the number one priority.

Liveitwell

Thank you, Lexie. I agree.

amy55

Forourgirls, I think when I was talking about the following someone around part, it was meant differently. I'll admit I followed mine around also, but it was due to a fear of abandonment and just wanting the fight to be over. I found out later on, not to do that, and then to just try to stay away from him when he would intermittently give me the silent treatment, and rage.

I also would call repeatedly, but it wasn't because I was trying to abuse him. It was because I was confused about what was going on and I thought if I could just explain to him why I felt hurt, that I wasn't really upset that things would be better, and he would talk to me again, and/or stop raging. Of course both of those things were the wrong thing to do, I don't think we did it to abuse them, I think we were doing that to try to end the disagreement. I think what really happened there was that we gave them our power. They then knew what buttons to push on us. I also felt the stronger that I got and the more I would stand up for myself, he just got worse, because it was like he needed to regain the control. I always felt like I was in a lose/lose situation.

LexieCat

amy, I've noticed that you compare your actions to his a LOT, and do an awful lot of confessing of your "wrongs." The way people behave when they are victimized repeatedly is not who they are or how they normally behave.

Rather than think of it as something "wrong" that you did, can you think of it maybe more like bleeding? Would you be apologizing if you went to a friend for help and bled on her rug? I suspect you might, but would that really, truly, be reasonable?

The way you behaved during your abusive marriage was a product of the abuse. Let it go--not that you should forget it, but recognize it for what it was--bleeding. In abusive situations, the ability to recognize choices and options is severely curtailed. Even when they are there, it's very difficult to see them or to believe any of them can lead to safety or happiness.

Nothing about your situation was normal, so please stop judging yourself as if it were.

amy55

Lexie, I agree with everything that you wrote. I think I mentioned Personality Disorders because I am positive my ex would meet the criteria to be diagnosed with one, and yes, he can almost always control himself in front of others. He lost it once in front of his therapist, and his therapist turned to me and asked me if I wanted to continue to see her throughout the divorce period, and we weren't even talking about divorce.

Any contact with an abuser will make you feel like

I was in contact with my ex this week, trying to do things amicably and in his favor, and I still needed to hire a lawyer.

Liveitwell

Lexie-spot on. Living in an abusive marriage causes you to feel like you need to survive. Amy-I agree with Lexie. I too compared my actions to my ex many times-he is the abuser. And is still abusing, more, even after the divirce-bc it's who HE is. I am not an abuser. You are not either. Whst you stated is exactly true in my situation as well-I'd try to call and explain my hurt, how could you do that!, etc....I did have huge fears of abandonment that caused some pretty low actions-things I haven't done in years bc of my work in therapy and recovery. You lived in hell-so did I. It never stopped and I knew the next time was coming-just didn't know when. That's not living-it's primal survival mode.

healthyagain

In my marriage, I was living in his reality. He had a story for everything, an explanation for every action, why people behaved in a certain way, why he was treated the way he was treated by his family, and of course I believed him. When we had the final big argument, he said that he would tell the landlord to kick me out, because he knew the landlord for years and worked for the same company. The point is, he truly, truly believed he had this power, that he had this buddy-buddy connection. And what happens after I talk to the landlord? She tells me how manic depressive he used to be, how his hygiene was bad (and to this very day I have no desire to find out what that means). So how many lies did I believe? And what was real in our relationship? I got isolated, I will admit I pushed many people myself and ignored the red flags and my family's and friend's comments/warnings . . . but how come I could not make new friends? How come everyone was bad in some way according to him? And you tend to trust your spouse. My ex is over 10 years older than me, and we met online. I was not looking for a relationships. It was just chatting to people around the world. There was nothing sexual about it. Ex always said that he has never been interested in younger women, but that he did not see my age correctly (he saw 32 instead of 23), and that after he saw better, he was "impressed by my maturity," so we kept talking. Well, that ladies and gentlemen was lie no. 1. Today, I am 100% sure about that.

And I also tend to believe that my ex is a messed up character who only happened to be an alcoholic.

amy55

I think we were posting at the same time today, and I didn't see this till now. My head was mostly in a fog today, because I did hire my attorney. Then worried most of the day, that I might actually win and be awarded monies that I wasn't really entitled to.

I looked at your analogy, and yes, I am one of those that as soon as I stopped cleaning, that I would work on "cleaning up the mess". I would even offer to buy a new carpet.

Then I thought of what that actually meant. Had to sit with that for a long time. I'm still thinking about it now.

I just kept envisioning my blood on someone else's carpet, and I had to go in and clean it up. Then I was thinking if it was his blood on someone else's carpet, well I would have to clean that up also.

Then I thought of physical abuse vrs emotional abuse. With physical abuse, you might have blood, and I know he wouldn't have cleaned it up, I would have. Then I think of emotional abuse, you can't see the blood, but I was also trying to clean that up.

Then I was thinking that if there was blood that he had caused, whether physically or emotionally, I was the one cleaning it up, and
that wasn't my job.

I know in my previous thread that I said I contacted an attorney, I did, and today and yesterday I worried about getting more then what I should really be getting, and how to make it up to him.

I should really be happy about him having to clean up the "blood" that he caused.

I know this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I do think Lexie brought up a good point about how we beat ourselves up about things.

I really do want to clean up that "blood" but I need to start thinking that it was his actions that caused that "blood" and he should deal with the consequences of it, and not me.

Going to think some more, and getting ready for another trip to NJ tomorrow to see my mother.

amy

dandylion

amy.......the abuse that you suffered in this relationship cost you dearly......
There is not enough money to ever pay for what he did.
So, I say......whatever money that you are awarded in this matter would be small compensation, in the big picture.
This is not a yardstick to measure your "worth". It is just some money.....
There is no way to talk about money and worth in the same sentence.
Worth is God-given.....and money is simply a method of exchange....invented by mortal man. Viva La Difference.

When dealing with a narcissist (or sociopath) there is no advantage of being the good guy or the nice guy or the "better person" or even martyr-like.......
There are no rewards and no stars in one's crown or special places in heaven.
If you offer your hand...they will take your arm......and, they won't even feel bad about it.

Great that you got the lawyer involved....as per Lexie's advice. I would let her affect a settlement of the vexing matter......so that you can p ut as much space between you and him that is possible. He has already taken up too much mental space in your head.......

That is the way I would look at it......

dandylion

Kboys

I was accused many times, by my AH of being "abusive and controlling"...
every time I used those words to describe him (which was pointless and exhausting), he would immediately turn it around on me... saying that I abusive due to being so "neglectful" for "putting the kids ahead of him" and that I didn't care about meeting his needs.
And controlling because of the things I did after he started cheating on me... checking his phone log, looking at his google location... but I never did those things before he cheated. (He DID throughout our entire relationship, and a lot more).
I too, lost it many times on him, screaming like a crazy person at him, hitting him, even kicking him in the groin once. I would only do it at times that I knew were somewhat "safe" like when he was sober or at least not that drunk, and when the kids weren't at home.
It was like I would hold it in for so long, just taking the abuse, because I didn't want it to escalate with the kids there and/or because he was so out of his mind I was scared to do anything or say anything, but then when I felt like it was okay to let loose, I sometimes would, which he was then able to use to make me the crazy and abusive one. And I was acting crazy... I'm not proud of it. I would always apologize immediately to him.... I rarely got apologies from him... Which I'm sure just fed his ego.

Every time I acted crazy, and did something that I knew was wrong, it just reinforced in my head that maybe he was right, maybe it is all my fault, and maybe if I just try a little harder to not lose my cool, and to be patient and understanding with him, and to meet "all his needs", then he won't be so mean and won't drink so much. That's part of what kept me with him for so long.

But I know now that no matter how hard I tried or how "perfect" I was, it would never have made a difference.

Do they really not believe that they are abusive? Or is that just their way of further manipulating us?

My AH stopped drinking for 9 months, and he was still emotionally abusive, controlling, and explosive... It just wasn't as often, or as intense.

amy55

Kboys, when I read the things that you write, it's almost like I am questioning myself as to whether or not I wrote that and didn't remember writing that. (lol)

Yes, I got crazy. I got so crazy this one day that he stopped the fight and said to me he had to, because I was acting crazier then him. I didn't care what I said that day. I played Pink Floyd over and over, same song. There's a lunatic inside my head and it's not me. I tried to walk away, and he followed me and followed me. So I just sat down and took it all, but I gave him the same that he was giving to me. It was that day that I realized that I didn't care if he killed me. I just wanted out, didn't matter what way I got out.

amy