Does he have a problem?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SE Arizona
Posts: 1,099
Does he have a problem?
I'm writing this for a neighbor I meet often through a mutual interest in woodworking. I'm acting as his intermediary because he has difficulty writing and he claims his computer skills are even worse than mine. We are nearly the same age (78), retired and are both caregivers for wives who are mostly but not fully independent. We live in a rural part of the southern Arizona desert. Except for educational backgrounds, we are a lot alike: he finished high school and worked as a mechanic, I have a PhD and have variously worked as a mechanic, soldier and professor. In a lot of ways we are kindred souls.
He was interested and curious when I quit drinking and asked me a lot about it. Now he is wondering whether he should. I keep telling him that he would have nothing to loose and he'd save enough to buy that new table saw he wants. He's not so sure.
He often begins drinking about noon with one or two strong (6.0 - 7.5%) beers or a glass of wine. He'll then hold off until mid afternoon when he quits work in his shop and goes to the house to read. Between 2:30 and 5:30 he will drink between 1/2 and occasionally nearly a full bottle of red wine, has dinner and drinks no more for the day. He's tried to quit but mostly doesn't see the point.
He suffers from mild, periodic depression and claims that drinking helps him feel better. And, like a lot of us older people he has spells of boredom; his relate to having to be around to support his wife. He is in good health: he walks 2-3 miles every morning and goes hunting, fishing and hiking when the opportunity presents. He often feels a sense of isolation even though he is happily married.
My point is that he seems to rely on alcohol to make him feel better most days and can feel blue and bored without it. To me that is a sign of addiction.
His drinking is beyond the general guidelines for moderate, and he knows it, but he doesn't seem to be escalating. He doesn't drive or operate woodworking machines when under the influence.
I'll share with him any responses I get here. I guess the main questions are: is he risking his health (physical and mental) and should he (and I) be worried about it.
BTW, there are a lot of older men and women in the Sun Belt who have similar problems. There is a Walgrens drug store in Green Valley, AZ that reportedly has the highest alcohol sales of any Walgrens in the U.S.
I'll be interested in any thoughts any of you might have.
He was interested and curious when I quit drinking and asked me a lot about it. Now he is wondering whether he should. I keep telling him that he would have nothing to loose and he'd save enough to buy that new table saw he wants. He's not so sure.
He often begins drinking about noon with one or two strong (6.0 - 7.5%) beers or a glass of wine. He'll then hold off until mid afternoon when he quits work in his shop and goes to the house to read. Between 2:30 and 5:30 he will drink between 1/2 and occasionally nearly a full bottle of red wine, has dinner and drinks no more for the day. He's tried to quit but mostly doesn't see the point.
He suffers from mild, periodic depression and claims that drinking helps him feel better. And, like a lot of us older people he has spells of boredom; his relate to having to be around to support his wife. He is in good health: he walks 2-3 miles every morning and goes hunting, fishing and hiking when the opportunity presents. He often feels a sense of isolation even though he is happily married.
My point is that he seems to rely on alcohol to make him feel better most days and can feel blue and bored without it. To me that is a sign of addiction.
His drinking is beyond the general guidelines for moderate, and he knows it, but he doesn't seem to be escalating. He doesn't drive or operate woodworking machines when under the influence.
I'll share with him any responses I get here. I guess the main questions are: is he risking his health (physical and mental) and should he (and I) be worried about it.
BTW, there are a lot of older men and women in the Sun Belt who have similar problems. There is a Walgrens drug store in Green Valley, AZ that reportedly has the highest alcohol sales of any Walgrens in the U.S.
I'll be interested in any thoughts any of you might have.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,435
Having been through something similar - boredom isolation, tied to home, retirement - and recognising a lot of my early behaviours, I would tend to agree more or less with your assessment Cascabel.
but...and it's a big but...the bottom line is folks have to identify and accept a problem before they'll do something about it.
Maybe a sense of purpose (above and beyond being his wife's caregiver) might help? a passion, a hobby?
D
but...and it's a big but...the bottom line is folks have to identify and accept a problem before they'll do something about it.
Maybe a sense of purpose (above and beyond being his wife's caregiver) might help? a passion, a hobby?
D
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
It's great of you to ask on his behalf, but only he can make the decision to quit for himself. His drinking is definitely not "normal". I'd recommend he speak with his doctor about the whole situation.
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,351
Hi Casabel 
What a lovely neighbour you are
It's lovely that you 2 get together and have a chat & and I admire you for your concern .
It's so nice when people your age " 78 " feel they can write in and seek advice.
We are never too old to learn.
My dad is 78, I bough him an iPad and he said no way , I'll never be able to work that out ! Now it's his best friend
I think your neighbour is drinking habitually.
As we get older we tend more to get into a daily routine, I know my Mum and Dad do. Dinner on the table at 5pm , not 5.01 haha.
If your neighbour feels like he can't go without it maybe he does have a problem.
But only he can fix that.
As drinkers no one but ourselves really knows if it's a problem or not
He doesn't seem to be writing himself off, getting blackout drunk or anything.
He seems to be pacing himself with it.
You say he is happily married, but even in happily married situations we can still feel isolated at times. No one really knows what goes on in another persons home.
What looks Good on the outside isn't always as it may seem. He may have depression and self medicates, using alcohol.
Men , especially feel weak if they need to seek help for depression but its so common now and so easily treated . Perhaps a visit to the doc would be a good idea.
Ask him if he has feelings of lingering sadness that doesn't go away or a feeling of not being able to ' snap out of it ' or it can manifest in anger , tears , seemingly for no reason etc.
Only he knows this and here is absolutely no shame in it. I could be completely off the track , but I hope this may help him in some small way.
He walks , he hikes , he sounds pretty healthy to me.
I would never have been able to manage that whilst drinking as my hangovers the next day would make me incapable.
I think he really enjoys your friendship, you sound like a lovely man and a very good friend .
I wish there were more people in the world like you xx
Bless.
What a lovely neighbour you are
It's lovely that you 2 get together and have a chat & and I admire you for your concern .
It's so nice when people your age " 78 " feel they can write in and seek advice.
We are never too old to learn.
My dad is 78, I bough him an iPad and he said no way , I'll never be able to work that out ! Now it's his best friend
I think your neighbour is drinking habitually.
As we get older we tend more to get into a daily routine, I know my Mum and Dad do. Dinner on the table at 5pm , not 5.01 haha.
If your neighbour feels like he can't go without it maybe he does have a problem.
But only he can fix that.
As drinkers no one but ourselves really knows if it's a problem or not
He doesn't seem to be writing himself off, getting blackout drunk or anything.
He seems to be pacing himself with it.
You say he is happily married, but even in happily married situations we can still feel isolated at times. No one really knows what goes on in another persons home.
What looks Good on the outside isn't always as it may seem. He may have depression and self medicates, using alcohol.
Men , especially feel weak if they need to seek help for depression but its so common now and so easily treated . Perhaps a visit to the doc would be a good idea.
Ask him if he has feelings of lingering sadness that doesn't go away or a feeling of not being able to ' snap out of it ' or it can manifest in anger , tears , seemingly for no reason etc.
Only he knows this and here is absolutely no shame in it. I could be completely off the track , but I hope this may help him in some small way.
He walks , he hikes , he sounds pretty healthy to me.
I would never have been able to manage that whilst drinking as my hangovers the next day would make me incapable.
I think he really enjoys your friendship, you sound like a lovely man and a very good friend .
I wish there were more people in the world like you xx
Bless.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 172
People who don't have a problem rarely if ever need to ask if they are an alcoholic.
A heavy drinking can moderate at any time or just stop if they become concerned. An alcoholic cannot not, at least for any sustained period of time.
The alcoholic will convince themselves they have am illusion of control because alcohol to the alcoholic is like insulin to the diabetic. It treats the underlying condition of alcoholism. The problem with alcohol as a treatment for alcoholism for the alcoholic is that it will eventually kill the alcoholic and destroy everything around the alcoholic.
A heavy drinking can moderate at any time or just stop if they become concerned. An alcoholic cannot not, at least for any sustained period of time.
The alcoholic will convince themselves they have am illusion of control because alcohol to the alcoholic is like insulin to the diabetic. It treats the underlying condition of alcoholism. The problem with alcohol as a treatment for alcoholism for the alcoholic is that it will eventually kill the alcoholic and destroy everything around the alcoholic.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,435
he's 78 years old. He's been through his fair share in life. If he enjoys having some wine or beer in the afternoon, then by all means let him I figure.
there are folks here on SR near that age or older, though - like the OP for one.
Just as I don't think any of us can really diagnose Cascabels friend, I think it would be a real mistake to suggest there's an age where we don't have to worry anymore..kinda sounds like some addictive reasoning to me?
D
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SE Arizona
Posts: 1,099
I'm afraid that in my OP I may have given the impression that this guy is a Luddite; he's definitely not. He is one of the smartest people I have had the privilege to meet. He is also a world class realist as a counterpoint to my idealism. We get together two to three times a week in his shop or mine. Mostly we talk about tools and old (40's and 50's) cars but he also has a philosophical side. In my mind we are both "seekers" looking for coherence in a confusing and conflicted world. My interests are in Stoicism and Buddhism, his are in Taoism and Zen. We are both huge fans of Teddy Roosevelt.
He is financially well off. He is one of those folks who lived below his means and spent his savings on assets(real estate and equities), not consumer junk: probably why he doesn't own a computer.
So, the guy is really smart and definitely not in"denial" in my judgement. I really respect him.
He is financially well off. He is one of those folks who lived below his means and spent his savings on assets(real estate and equities), not consumer junk: probably why he doesn't own a computer.
So, the guy is really smart and definitely not in"denial" in my judgement. I really respect him.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
I am wondering why you are fielding this question? Surely as a 78 YO, your friend has seen an alcoholic or two in his time.
I think you can be a good example of how wonderful sobriety is, and you can encourage him to do things with you when he hasn't been drinking, but for you to spend time doing this third party stuff on the internet seems to be a futile endeavor.
Are you at all concerned that you are spending time with someone who is frequently under the influence? I find it impossible to have conversations with people who have been drinking.
I think you can be a good example of how wonderful sobriety is, and you can encourage him to do things with you when he hasn't been drinking, but for you to spend time doing this third party stuff on the internet seems to be a futile endeavor.
Are you at all concerned that you are spending time with someone who is frequently under the influence? I find it impossible to have conversations with people who have been drinking.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,823
Maybe looking at his alcohol consumption from a more biologic /medical standpoint is a more realistic view. A realistic cost/benefit analysis ? Factoring in the idea of dependence / addiction , the possibility of a progression given his age and length of his drinking 'career'? Alcohol consumption is seemingly a very important part of his day to day living, maybe just that fact could be a reason to evaluate , re-evaluate?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SE Arizona
Posts: 1,099
Originally Posted by SnoozyQ 
Hi Casabel :wavey
Men , especially feel weak if they need to seek help for depression but its so common now and so easily treated . Perhaps a visit to the doc would be a good idea.
Ask him if he has feelings of lingering sadness that doesn't go away or a feeling of not being able to ' snap out of it ' or it can manifest in anger , tears , seemingly for no reason etc.
Only he knows this and here is absolutely no shame in it. I could be completely off the track , but I hope this may help him in some small way.
Men , especially feel weak if they need to seek help for depression but its so common now and so easily treated . Perhaps a visit to the doc would be a good idea.
Ask him if he has feelings of lingering sadness that doesn't go away or a feeling of not being able to ' snap out of it ' or it can manifest in anger , tears , seemingly for no reason etc.
Only he knows this and here is absolutely no shame in it. I could be completely off the track , but I hope this may help him in some small way.
When I wrote the OP I probably was subconsciously looking for guidance for both of us. Both he and I are struggling with depression, that is another thread woven into out friendship.
Both of us are caring for much-loved wives who are victims of unpredictable diseases. My wife has had a double lung transplant and rejection is always there looming in the background: his wife suffers from congestive heart disease.
It is really difficult not to have emotions such as "feeling sadness that doesn't go away or a feeling of not being able to ' snap out of it ' or it can manifest in anger , tears , seemingly for no reason " when one takes an objective look at what the future likely holds. We compare notes a lot and try to help one-another through the black moods. Neither of us seems able to "snap out of it" and tears are frequent enough they are no longer an embarrassment. I'm not drinking but can't say that abstenence helps much with the recurring depression. He does drink, probably habitually but he is certainly always thoughtful and coherent. And, I cannot honestly say that he does any better or worse drinking than I do sober.
We have talked a lot about getting help with our depressed times. We have both been to see a GP and both wound up with prescriptions for anti-depressant medications and a "suck it up" lecture. St. John's Wort works better for me. We're on Medicare so need a GP referral to get mental health treatment. And, if we got the referral, there is, to my understanding, only a modest amount of money for mental help with a healthy co-payment also required. We talk about this a lot.
Picture a couple of old guys sitting and talking around the stove in a Vermont hardware store and then move the scene to a frame shop building, a beat-up workbench and swamp cooler in the middle of the cactus-studded Arizona desert. That's us; we're old but not wise and finding some tarnish on the "golden years".
Thanks for your kindness.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 25,826
I think if he's starting to question his drinking habits then he may have an issue, that was the first red flag in my mind, normal drinkers never have that question enter their head.
Sobreity can have benefits no matter at what age, so at 78yrs he could have a slice of that if alcohol is indeed causing him problems!!
Sobreity can have benefits no matter at what age, so at 78yrs he could have a slice of that if alcohol is indeed causing him problems!!
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SE Arizona
Posts: 1,099
Originally Posted by biminiblue
I am wondering why you are fielding this question? Surely as a 78 YO, your friend has seen an alcoholic or two in his time.
I think you can be a good example of how wonderful sobriety is, and you can encourage him to do things with you when he hasn't been drinking, but for you to spend time doing this third party stuff on the internet seems to be a futile endeavor.
Are you at all concerned that you are spending time with someone who is frequently under the influence? I find it impossible to have conversations with people who have been drinking.
I think you can be a good example of how wonderful sobriety is, and you can encourage him to do things with you when he hasn't been drinking, but for you to spend time doing this third party stuff on the internet seems to be a futile endeavor.
Are you at all concerned that you are spending time with someone who is frequently under the influence? I find it impossible to have conversations with people who have been drinking.
I'm doing this for several reasons: First, he doesn't have a computer, doesn't want one and has no interest in learning about them; Second, drinking gives him relief from depression and it gives him some pleasure, I'm not about to tell him he doesn't know what he is talking about: Third, he was curious to know whether drinking at his present rate might have deleterious effects on his health, he claims he drinks less now than when younger and I have no reason to doubt him. I offered to see what I (and he) could learn; Finally, I'm doing this as a favor for a friend.
I have no problems having conversations with him at any time. Perhaps you are projecting your experiences onto mine. I suspect you would like him too and never suspect that he drank.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
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Depression is something I know a little more about.
A lot of men seem to be taught, like I was, that depression was not something a man suffered - you just quit yer whining, snap out of it, and get on with it.
Many many years later I finally found my depression was actually a real illness.
I really do recommend that you do try and follow up and see someone Cascabel and your mate too for that matter...
no matter how many bureaucratic hoops you need to jump through I think it's worth it...we're worth the effort
D
A lot of men seem to be taught, like I was, that depression was not something a man suffered - you just quit yer whining, snap out of it, and get on with it.
Many many years later I finally found my depression was actually a real illness.
I really do recommend that you do try and follow up and see someone Cascabel and your mate too for that matter...
no matter how many bureaucratic hoops you need to jump through I think it's worth it...we're worth the effort
D
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,351
Originally Posted by Cascabel
Picture a couple of old guys sitting and talking around the stove in a Vermont hardware store and then move the scene to a frame shop building, a beat-up workbench and swamp cooler in the middle of the cactus-studded Arizona desert. That's us; we're old but not wise and finding some tarnish on the "golden years".
.
it made me smile. You two are more like the ' golden boys ' I had an inkling that you may have had depression also , but let you voice it when you wanted to.
I think your companionship is a good thing. You may both feel sad etc but I'm glad you gave each other.
Men don't often share their thoughts or feelings with another man.
I'm so glad you're both open to this.
Maybe you don't want to burden your wives with how you really feel , but honestly , women are strong even when we are sick.
We still need to feel needed. So test the waters and have a chat with your wives if you feel you can
Depression can be pain in the butt.
If St. John's wart works for you that's great. You should be feeling happier.
Anti ds don't change who we are. They just help us to be our true selves and cope each day
I hope you keep popping in here for a chat each day. This place has saved my sanity.
There's always someone to talk to .
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 873
Alcohol is more likely a cause of depression than a cure, so if he's drinking to get rid of depression he may have things backwards.
Otherwise only he can really decide if he has a problem, and if he really wants to quit.
Otherwise only he can really decide if he has a problem, and if he really wants to quit.
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