sixtyfour

Hello Everyone.

I just read the Crash Course in AVRT and made my Big Plan. To be honest this is the second time I've done it. I did it about 6 years ago when I was 20 years old. Collectively over those 6 years I probably have had roughly 2 years sober (and one 11-month stretch of sobriety). I'm sure this has been brought up before many times but in the Crash Course it says that recovery groups of any kind are counter-productive and in fact harmful to my Big Plan. Am I understanding that correctly? I feel like I'm asking a dumb question here but I'll do it anyway: then why do we use soberrecovery? How do we rationalize that in the context of the Big Plan?

P.S. I've been to AA about a dozen times and while I understand it works for some people it was too cult-like for me personally so I'm not interested in going to that kind of a recovery group. But (before I made my Big Plan today) I did call a 1 800 number to arrange for some addictions one-one counselling. I would still like to do that.

Dee74

Welcome to the secular forum and welcome back to SR, sixty four

AA and the 12 steps are actually off topic for this forum so it's best if the remainder of the thread deals with RR, AVRT, and SR

Thanks

Dee
Moderator
SR

fini

welcome, 64, and congratulations.

it's a good question you have there, and others have spoken to it here:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...oing-here.html

sixtyfour

Okay, I'm sorry about that! And thank you for the link

jazzfish

Here is my take on it. Every 'requirement' that we accept as a necessary condition for sobriety can actually be a future excuse to drink. (e.g. I drank because I didn't go to enough meetings; I drank because I got too tired; I drank because I didn't work my CBT worksheets; I drank because I didn't reach out, etc.) The AV loves to create these for future use (i.e. anything will can create doubt about the ability to stay sober is AV). If on the other hand the only requirement to not drink is to...well, never drink, then you have made life much more simple. There are no more convenient excuses that you AV can use to convince you to drink.

So why am I here? I am inspired by stories of success. I can help others. I can do my part in keeping the RR story straight (as I understand it). None of these are 'requirements' for my sobriety, however.

dwtbd

Congrats on making a BP sixtyfour!

PurpleKnight

Great job Sixtyfour!!

freshstart57

It's a good question, SixtyFour. I look for contradictions and inconsistencies too and listen critically - it's part of being mindful, I think.

Jazzfish said it well. Our Big Plan is about an unconditional and permanent choice of sobriety. If we instead place conditions on our sobriety, such as doing enough of something, orvworking hard enough, or being honest enough, any of those conditions is open to interpretation and provides a ready reason for our AV to assert self doubt and then failure.

AVRT holds that none of these arbitrary conditions can qualify or, from the point of view of our AV, disqualify our Big Plan. Is you is or is you ain't made your BP?

It is simply tremendous to hear about your BP, SixtyFour. Take advantage of every tool you can find to make this transition as easy as possible. But make no mistake - you already have everything inside that you need to decide to never drink again, and to never change your mind. You got this!

dwtbd

It's in all of us , the 'stuff' to make a BP , we just need to believe it and tap into it. Finding support to help bolster the resolve and never change our minds can certainly be helpful and comforting, just remember that anything that tries to bring doubt to the idea that you can maintain a BP is by definition the AV , our own and or anyone elses' and needs to be discarded, take what you need and leave the rest comes to mind

samseb5351

Good question SixtyFour

In all the years I have been coming here I have not heard a good answer to this question.

dwtbd

samseb5351
What would a good answer sound like?
I like Jazz's , he just said it way more betterly than I would.

MesaMan

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To run with Jazzfish's POV, to be on here daily - as I am in Early Retirement - is Elective. A Choice. Like going to the Gym or not. I can read SR bits in the Grocery Stone Line. Waiting for Driver's License Renewal...

I simply can't sit around and listen to marginal 'Material' when I could be absorbing and thinking at a Higher Level. This is why I'm just not a 'Meetings Guy'. On SR, I get what I call 'A Daily Nugget', and it really might change my thinking. I can skip over Posts that don't elevate my Thinking, and Sobriety. I really like that efficiency. A lot. I reject straight away the idea that I'll get something from anyone I listen to. Or, that there's some 'Fault' within me I have to correct if I'm discerning. It strikes me as having a lack of Self Respect to not be selective about who, and which ideas, take my time, and might prevent me from instead absorbing truly elevating ideas to enhance my Sobriety. I simply don't buy the illusion that 'all thoughts are created equal'. Gimme the proverbial good stuff [Sobriety-related Thoughts]. Time's a wastin'...

Back in High School, when I was a '[W]ussy Tennis Player', our very-British Coach taught us that you only get better when you play someone better. I find that's also true when I hang with some truly Great Minds here. With hundreds of current, and Archived Topics/POVs here, the Statistics are better that I'll find something of high value, and Sobriety-enhancing, here on SR vs. elsewhere.

SR is not a 'either or choice' or conundrum vis-a-vis my etched-in-Stone BP. To position the question that way is a false option. No disrespect intended whatsoever...
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LBrain

I believe what the avrt 'people' mean when 'they' say stay away from "recovery groups " are those groups that treat 'recovery' as a daily reprieve from alcohol. Or that you must do x,y,z or else you will relapse. When making a 'big plan' it is a total commitment. Never again. Whereas some 'recovery groups' do not believe it is possible to make such a commitment. I do not know how all recovery groups approach this. However, the premise of 'just for today' or 'one day at a time' implicates that tomorrow is always a possibility. When you make a big plan you completely take the day after tomorrow out of the equation. Never again means just that. You don't use any excuse to drink be it 'I have a disease', 'my dog died' or failing to 'triggers'. You don't drink no matter what happens. And get on with your life. If you need help with other aspects of your personality, mental health or whatever, you must follow through with that. Stopping drinking does only one thing. It removes alcohol from the equation so that you can further improve your existence. How you go about that is up to you.

If you read further into the avrt web site, you are offered a monthly subscription to join a forum of like minded avrt types. Or a quarterly or longer. But as I read it, the option of 'longer' than a month was if you really need more. I suppose it is used as a matter of further grasping the concept and to help educate a person further on the method and how to practice it. I do not know since I never felt the need to subscribe to the avrt forum or purchase any of the literature. I did the crash course and it made total sense to me. I did not need to go any further into it.

I see mesa man posted as I was going through this. His response to 'why use this forum?' could not be improved by anything I could add.

I will add for clarification that even though I made a big plan, I still battled with the AV for some time. And I did things to distract myself in the early going - I drank alcoholically for almost 40 years. Near the end I'd go through over a gallon of hi-test a week along with a case of beer every couple days or one a day when I didn't have to work. Shot and chaser all day long.

So just making a big plan didn't remove the desire to drink - or the habit of drinking with every activity. I was able to recognize it for what it was - the AV. I removed myself from a situation or took breaks. Spending time on SR was a very great help to me. And I avoided people/places/things in the early go until I was strong enough. My social life changed dramatically and it's still not as it was. I have no desire to spend my time with a bunch of drunks any more.

One of the greatest benefits of SR to me was seeing people continually relapse and struggle. Even people with several years of sobriety were/are relapsing. The more I read about people relapsing the stronger my resolve to never drink again became.

Going on two years without a drink and I very rarely if ever even think about having a drink. My AV has given up, but I will always be aware of it if it decides to come out of hibernation. I have no desire to drink and I'm able to socialize with heavy drinkers now, not that I often do. In fact I was in a bar/restaurant a couple weeks ago and I didn't even notice people drinking or the booze on the shelf. When I first got sober I noticed it everywhere. Now, it doesn't even exist to me. And that is a fact. I don't worry about the day after tomorrow - or any other day.
I don't drink.

samseb5351

Hmm perhaps Good was a poor choice of words, maybe I was a bit grumpy yesterday. What I meant is I have yet to see a congruent answer. Congruency with what the crash course actually says. Whether thats a good thing or a bad thing its hard to say as I am not a supporter of RR but I am certainly interested in Self Driven Recovery. There just seems to be a disconnect with the hard lines of the AVRT and how people tend to practice it or express it on SR.

dwtbd

Fair enough , as the kids say these days.
I am an RR/AVRT supporter , the perspective and the techniques showed me a way to end my addiction. Through that I made the life altering decision to become and Be a nondrinker. The idea of recovered as opposed to a life of recoverying was what I was looking for and found. I don't drink .
Everything else "becoming, being, learning how to be the best me I can" , the ways or practices of making or bringing happiness and fulfillment and a live well lived into being are going to come from a perspective that doesn't involve recovery, for me. Even becoming comfortable with never drinking again is really outside the scope of recovery, if that makes sense?
Congruity and consistence are hard to come by. Imperfection is rampant.

MesaMan

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'Congruity and consistence are hard to come by.'

Precisely what I was thinking while mucking around with some Financial Trivia now on this PC, and reflecting on this Thread.

I designed and built this Early Retirement House myself. I followed applicable Codes, of course. The rest was mainly looking hard at Guidelines on this-or-that, and then doing what I wanted. Whether it had been done before or not.

In the same vein, I really don't care about conformance to, or deviation from, RR Guidelines. This is, perhaps, why this is true:

'There just seems to be a disconnect with the hard lines of the AVRT and how people tend to practice it or express it on SR.'

I see this 'disconnect' as nothing but a good thing. Philosophic conformance means nothing to me so long as Folks are morphing Guidelines, and making Sobriety work for them. Some of us grab the Box of Crayons, and proceed to color outside the [Guide]lines. Some of us don't/can't.

'Even becoming comfortable with never drinking again is really outside the scope of recovery, if that makes sense?'

This makes perfect sense to me. After some time on here, I find that Folks either get this precept, or they don't. I use the Model of not liking the choices on the Chess Board. Thus, I upended it long ago, and tossed it on the Floor. I instead created my own, useful, new choices/options.

No more circling the Flame of Drinking again, like some Moth taunting it's own destruction. From that, no ODAAT follows. I don't need to avoid that which I simply don't want or do anymore per my BP.

It necessarily follows that my House, and my Sobriety, are successes because of me taking helpful Models [like RR], and morphing them to what works for the only Person whose Sobriety is of principal concern:

Me.
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sixtyfour

Thank you for the replies everybody!

I like what MesaMan said about essentially customizing recovery methods to suit your own needs. I love this forum/website, it has always been a very safe and encouraging place to visit so even though I made my Big Plan I still of course like/want to check in here from time to time (in my case right now that's everyday). Mostly I just read other people's stuff. So far I've been very cognisant of those "Beastly" thoughts popping up in my mind as images/feelings/doubts etc. I feel like I have a better sense of what that means now than I did when I was younger. That beast has its own propaganda machine going on in my head and I notice it more now and I am better able to disassociate from it and recognize it as the BS that it is!

Greenwood618

Sixtyfour, what are your plans for the future use of alcohol? That is the only question.

All this quibbling about AVRT is easily recognized Beast behavior to most of us. Congruency, etc. Give me a break.

Word games, scientific inquiry, the science of logic - meaningless when it comes to stopping chronic drunkeness. It is all just your AV creating drama under the guise of pseudo-intellectual crap so it can persuade you to drink again.

And your evaluation of how people apply AVRT is flawed. You have a small sample size. Make no mistake, EVERYONE who quits drinking long term does it without "support" and by using AVRT. The hundreds of millions of self recovered just don't call it that because it stems from their personal resources and determination. But it is the same thing.

So: what is your plan for the future use of alcohol?

sixtyfour

My plan is to never drink alcohol again and to never change my mind about that.

Greenwood618

Then you have got it and need never worry about side issues again. Congratulations! Proceed with 100 percent confidence, recognize all doubt as AV and avoid all forms of recoveryism.

Doubt in this sense includes quibbling over what the meaning of is is with regard to AVRT.

You are to be heartily congratulated for seeing through the fog - the fog of disease theory and the fog created by your own Beast. Good work, enjoy some ACE.