Drunk rantings - truth or not?
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Join Date: May 2013
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Drunk rantings - truth or not?
Hi all,
I am still trying to figure things out.
RAH and I had a conversation where I brought up some of the things he has repeatedly said to me in the past. Some of these things were said when I knew he had been drinking (however since he was a closet drinker, I never knew how much had consumed) and some were said when I thought he was sober, but he probably wasn't.
This is the response I get to those statements:
1. I never said that.
Then....
2. I must have been drunk if I said that.
This is what I want to hear:
I apologize if that I said that. I don't think you are (fill in the blank). And then say something nice that he does believe.
The fact that I only get denial that he ever said something or an excuse that he was drunk and not a reversal of the statement kinda tells me that he really does think what he said.
I do tend to try and read between the lines and I really want to know if a drunk rant can be the truth or if it is just that....a rant coming from someone that is not in their right mind.
I appreciate your wisdom and thoughts on this.
Blue
I am still trying to figure things out.
RAH and I had a conversation where I brought up some of the things he has repeatedly said to me in the past. Some of these things were said when I knew he had been drinking (however since he was a closet drinker, I never knew how much had consumed) and some were said when I thought he was sober, but he probably wasn't.
This is the response I get to those statements:
1. I never said that.
Then....
2. I must have been drunk if I said that.
This is what I want to hear:
I apologize if that I said that. I don't think you are (fill in the blank). And then say something nice that he does believe.
The fact that I only get denial that he ever said something or an excuse that he was drunk and not a reversal of the statement kinda tells me that he really does think what he said.
I do tend to try and read between the lines and I really want to know if a drunk rant can be the truth or if it is just that....a rant coming from someone that is not in their right mind.
I appreciate your wisdom and thoughts on this.
Blue
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Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
I don't know what kinds of things he said, but there's a big difference between calling someone lazy and calling someone a liar and a cheat. The latter is a direct attack on someone's character, while the other is more of an opinion about behavior.
Let's face it, we all have private opinions about our partners--things that we would change if we could--even when they are not alcoholics. You might think he's a slob. And you might be right. You probably wouldn't say it--call him a slob--unless you were really angry about something else. And chances are, if you love the guy, you love him in spite of the negative qualities you perceive. Nobody's perfect.
So even if he privately thinks those things, he might let loose with something when he's drinking that he wouldn't otherwise say. I think it's less important WHAT he thinks privately than it is that he said things without thinking about (or caring) how that might make you feel.
Let's face it, we all have private opinions about our partners--things that we would change if we could--even when they are not alcoholics. You might think he's a slob. And you might be right. You probably wouldn't say it--call him a slob--unless you were really angry about something else. And chances are, if you love the guy, you love him in spite of the negative qualities you perceive. Nobody's perfect.
So even if he privately thinks those things, he might let loose with something when he's drinking that he wouldn't otherwise say. I think it's less important WHAT he thinks privately than it is that he said things without thinking about (or caring) how that might make you feel.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 609
Hi Blue.
I have had these exact types of exchanges when my STBAXH was in recovery. I wanted to hear exactly what you wanted. Sadly, the answer to these things don't matter. You have to be honest with yourself if you can truly get over the things that happened while he was still actively drinking. We will never be able to interpret or understand the alcoholic brain so we cannot even try to decipher what was really meant and what wasn't.
Try and take the shift off of the past and where you are now. Try to focus on yourself and maybe indiviual counseling will help you with the past, that is the only thing that helped me. Unfortunately this life is not tit for tat, and we will never get all the sincere apologies we are due, but you and I have to find a way to live peacefully accepting that whether it be moving on from your marriage or truly forgiving him for the past. In my case, I had to move on from the marriage. If you have the ability to forgive, you cannot go backwards. I used to say I forgave but in my mind I didnt. It was not until I was really honest with myself did things ever change.
I have had these exact types of exchanges when my STBAXH was in recovery. I wanted to hear exactly what you wanted. Sadly, the answer to these things don't matter. You have to be honest with yourself if you can truly get over the things that happened while he was still actively drinking. We will never be able to interpret or understand the alcoholic brain so we cannot even try to decipher what was really meant and what wasn't.
Try and take the shift off of the past and where you are now. Try to focus on yourself and maybe indiviual counseling will help you with the past, that is the only thing that helped me. Unfortunately this life is not tit for tat, and we will never get all the sincere apologies we are due, but you and I have to find a way to live peacefully accepting that whether it be moving on from your marriage or truly forgiving him for the past. In my case, I had to move on from the marriage. If you have the ability to forgive, you cannot go backwards. I used to say I forgave but in my mind I didnt. It was not until I was really honest with myself did things ever change.
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Join Date: Sep 2013
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I used to drive myself to distraction trying to figure out if my ex really believed all the crazy stuff he said when he was drinking. I also wanted amends from him. I felt like he OWED me, after all the crap I put up with from him.
Eventually I had to accept that those amends I thought I deserved were never going to happen, and that relying on him as a source of information to make sense of his crazy behavior was, well, crazy.
Iamthird is right on about shifting the focus away from him and onto yourself. I looked over your last thread, and it seems like you're still struggling with those same issues.
It hurts when someone we love says and does hurtful things, and we have a right to our feelings about that. But expecting the person who has hurt us to be the one who heals us is unrealistic. I had to let go of a lot in order to start healing. I had to stop looking at why my ex did or said something hurtful, or if he really meant it or whether he was sorry or even remembered it and shift that focus to myself. It was much more helpful to examine my own reasons and motivations for accepting years of abuse and unacceptable behavior.
I know what a struggle it is. I had years of time and energy invested in HIM. It was hard to let go of that, even though the payoff was zero. Since I did, I've been richly rewarded because I started investing that time and energy in ME.
You are worth it. I hope you are able to find a real life support system. Alanon and individual counseling have both helped me tremendously.
Eventually I had to accept that those amends I thought I deserved were never going to happen, and that relying on him as a source of information to make sense of his crazy behavior was, well, crazy.
Iamthird is right on about shifting the focus away from him and onto yourself. I looked over your last thread, and it seems like you're still struggling with those same issues.
It hurts when someone we love says and does hurtful things, and we have a right to our feelings about that. But expecting the person who has hurt us to be the one who heals us is unrealistic. I had to let go of a lot in order to start healing. I had to stop looking at why my ex did or said something hurtful, or if he really meant it or whether he was sorry or even remembered it and shift that focus to myself. It was much more helpful to examine my own reasons and motivations for accepting years of abuse and unacceptable behavior.
I know what a struggle it is. I had years of time and energy invested in HIM. It was hard to let go of that, even though the payoff was zero. Since I did, I've been richly rewarded because I started investing that time and energy in ME.
You are worth it. I hope you are able to find a real life support system. Alanon and individual counseling have both helped me tremendously.
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 276
For me, this is the hardest part of trying to move on with a recovering A. In some ways, I think their mean way of thinking of us was a necessary element to the alcoholism. That's the only way they can delude themselves that the drinking isn't a problem, or that the drinking is our fault.
Is he still saying or doing hurtful things? If your feelings get hurt does he care? I think that's a better indicator of if you'll be able to forgive and more forward.
Is he still saying or doing hurtful things? If your feelings get hurt does he care? I think that's a better indicator of if you'll be able to forgive and more forward.
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OH, Wow, Bkuetomato.......what a good question......
It is one that I have given sooo much thought over the years.....
I have struggled to understand, also.....
I have also had a hard time getting an "answer" on this one.....it just seems like most people don't even understand why this is so important to a loved one of an alcoholic....!?
I think that it is so important to us (me).....is because it is central to a main foundation of healthy relationships with anyone---which is---CAN I TRUST YOU?....
In other words, can I be transparent and vulnerable with you and turn my tender white underbelly to you...without the fear that you will gut me like a fish (again)......
I do believe that it is necessary to see or hear them experience such sorrow over their actions toward us that they NEVER want to go there again....that they choose recovery over ever hurting their loved ones like that again.....
If they can't do that in words AND actions---then they probably don't regret it enough and shouldn't be trusted with our hearts again....distance is the only thing left.....
To want what I am talking about...and what I believe you are talking about....I do NOT believe is an attempt to exercise control over their recovery....
I also do NOT consider that it means I am carrying a load of resentments around with me---to eat me up from the insides out....
I do believe that it means that I am human.....very human.....and, as so, it is natural for me to want to live without fear of verbal abuse or cruelty (intended or not) from the ones that I love the most....
I h ave heard recovering people say "apologies are for the alcoholic him/herself". O.K.---that is cool...I get that part.....
But if the alcoholic can't have as much empathy and compassion and caring for me as for him/herself......I still don't consider it safe territory for my heart......
Now---I am aware that I am probably setting off a real firestorm in this thread by my opinion on this (sorry, bluetomato).......
Even So------just like bluetomato---I am very interested to hear what others have to say on this subject.......
HEADLINES: "Dandylion Triggers Tusami in Western Hemisphere"
dandylion
It is one that I have given sooo much thought over the years.....
I have struggled to understand, also.....
I have also had a hard time getting an "answer" on this one.....it just seems like most people don't even understand why this is so important to a loved one of an alcoholic....!?
I think that it is so important to us (me).....is because it is central to a main foundation of healthy relationships with anyone---which is---CAN I TRUST YOU?....
In other words, can I be transparent and vulnerable with you and turn my tender white underbelly to you...without the fear that you will gut me like a fish (again)......
I do believe that it is necessary to see or hear them experience such sorrow over their actions toward us that they NEVER want to go there again....that they choose recovery over ever hurting their loved ones like that again.....
If they can't do that in words AND actions---then they probably don't regret it enough and shouldn't be trusted with our hearts again....distance is the only thing left.....
To want what I am talking about...and what I believe you are talking about....I do NOT believe is an attempt to exercise control over their recovery....
I also do NOT consider that it means I am carrying a load of resentments around with me---to eat me up from the insides out....
I do believe that it means that I am human.....very human.....and, as so, it is natural for me to want to live without fear of verbal abuse or cruelty (intended or not) from the ones that I love the most....
I h ave heard recovering people say "apologies are for the alcoholic him/herself". O.K.---that is cool...I get that part.....
But if the alcoholic can't have as much empathy and compassion and caring for me as for him/herself......I still don't consider it safe territory for my heart......
Now---I am aware that I am probably setting off a real firestorm in this thread by my opinion on this (sorry, bluetomato).......
Even So------just like bluetomato---I am very interested to hear what others have to say on this subject.......
HEADLINES: "Dandylion Triggers Tusami in Western Hemisphere"
dandylion
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
I left my AH three years ago and started divorce proceedings immediately.
He was alcoholic, abusive and yelled many terrible things at me. Most of them, after much reflection, are not true.
What is true is what he said not long before our marriage exploded and I had to leave suddenly. I was trying to get him to stop drinking and other excesses. He did not want to. He said "You need to look at what you are really doing here. You need to look at how you are trying to control me."
He was right. I WAS trying to control him, and that was not my right. He gets and got to live whatever way he wants. My choice should not have been about trying to control what HE did. My choice is deciding how I want to live and how I want to respond to his choices.
So, in that way, he was more perceptive about the underlying dynamics of our relationship than I was.
Most of the actual things he said to me, labels he tried to brand me with, were false. He mixed me up with prior people in his life - his mother, sister, prior wives - who HAD done terrible things to him and treated me as if I had done those things. Because he could not bear to admit to any flaws whatsoever, and something was clearly going wrong in our marriage, it was clear to him that I must have caused it all. That was the only palatable explanation to him; he was too insecure for introspection; ownership of his abusive behavior would have shaken his sense of self so badly that he couldn't tolerate it. So, in his mind, if it was bad behavior, it was mine. And he apparently annointed himself with the role of policeman of "bad behavior" and that gave him the right to call me any name he wanted.
So, I'd say, sort through what he said to see if any of it has a kernal of truth, and discard the rest.
The question, as time goes on and he becomes more solid in his recovery, is: is he capable of introspection, of remembering and owning his own behavior, and course-correcting?
It is the answer to that which matters, not his prior drunken rants.
ShootingStar1
He was alcoholic, abusive and yelled many terrible things at me. Most of them, after much reflection, are not true.
What is true is what he said not long before our marriage exploded and I had to leave suddenly. I was trying to get him to stop drinking and other excesses. He did not want to. He said "You need to look at what you are really doing here. You need to look at how you are trying to control me."
He was right. I WAS trying to control him, and that was not my right. He gets and got to live whatever way he wants. My choice should not have been about trying to control what HE did. My choice is deciding how I want to live and how I want to respond to his choices.
So, in that way, he was more perceptive about the underlying dynamics of our relationship than I was.
Most of the actual things he said to me, labels he tried to brand me with, were false. He mixed me up with prior people in his life - his mother, sister, prior wives - who HAD done terrible things to him and treated me as if I had done those things. Because he could not bear to admit to any flaws whatsoever, and something was clearly going wrong in our marriage, it was clear to him that I must have caused it all. That was the only palatable explanation to him; he was too insecure for introspection; ownership of his abusive behavior would have shaken his sense of self so badly that he couldn't tolerate it. So, in his mind, if it was bad behavior, it was mine. And he apparently annointed himself with the role of policeman of "bad behavior" and that gave him the right to call me any name he wanted.
So, I'd say, sort through what he said to see if any of it has a kernal of truth, and discard the rest.
The question, as time goes on and he becomes more solid in his recovery, is: is he capable of introspection, of remembering and owning his own behavior, and course-correcting?
It is the answer to that which matters, not his prior drunken rants.
ShootingStar1
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Location: Iowa
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Dandylion has given an interesting perspective, and I think a true one. Trust is the foundation of good relationships. Maybe it was easier for me to let go of my need for him to be sorry because I was no longer in a relationship with him, and there was no point in rebuilding trust, especially since he is still drinking.
It would have been a lot different if he had chosen sobriety and I had stayed and tried to work through the damage with him.
Without alcohol, all the other issues would have come to a head- his abuse, his entitled mindset, my own immaturity and need for external validation. Hard to say if those things can be conquered if both people aren't willing to do the work it takes to heal the relationship.
How long has he been sober this time? What are you doing for your own recovery?
It would have been a lot different if he had chosen sobriety and I had stayed and tried to work through the damage with him.
Without alcohol, all the other issues would have come to a head- his abuse, his entitled mindset, my own immaturity and need for external validation. Hard to say if those things can be conquered if both people aren't willing to do the work it takes to heal the relationship.
How long has he been sober this time? What are you doing for your own recovery?
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Join Date: May 2013
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Oh Dandylion - you may think you started a tsunami, but you hit the nail on the head.
I really truly wish I could let it all go and start over. I kept things together for so long...after the affair, the unemployment, the drinking. I want to know I am in a safe place before I try any sort of reconciliation with him.
Deep, deep down -- I think he really meant the things he said. I believe that he regrets the day he was forced into marrying me, among all the other stuff.
At one point, after I found out about the affair but before I knew he was secret drinking, I decided to tell him something about my past. Was something I had never told anyone, was my vulnerable underbelly moment with him. What did he do with that - threw it in my face. Accused me of 'blaming' him for something he had nothing to do with. Made fun of me for feeling the way I did.
I was gutted. I don't ever want to be that way again.
I don't trust him. I am not sure I can ever trust him unless he can tell me that he doesn't feel that way about me, regardless of whether he remembers he said it or not. I wish I could go through IC and leave the past with some work. I wish I could start fresh with RAH and roll forward. I want to stay married, I just don't think that it is going to be possible.
I really truly wish I could let it all go and start over. I kept things together for so long...after the affair, the unemployment, the drinking. I want to know I am in a safe place before I try any sort of reconciliation with him.
Deep, deep down -- I think he really meant the things he said. I believe that he regrets the day he was forced into marrying me, among all the other stuff.
At one point, after I found out about the affair but before I knew he was secret drinking, I decided to tell him something about my past. Was something I had never told anyone, was my vulnerable underbelly moment with him. What did he do with that - threw it in my face. Accused me of 'blaming' him for something he had nothing to do with. Made fun of me for feeling the way I did.
I was gutted. I don't ever want to be that way again.
I don't trust him. I am not sure I can ever trust him unless he can tell me that he doesn't feel that way about me, regardless of whether he remembers he said it or not. I wish I could go through IC and leave the past with some work. I wish I could start fresh with RAH and roll forward. I want to stay married, I just don't think that it is going to be possible.
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The fact that I only get denial that he ever said something or an excuse that he was drunk and not a reversal of the statement kinda tells me that he really does think what he said.
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Last time I got attacked when my AH said some really really mean things, I was petrified. Then the day after, he told me he did not remember, he was drunk, had a black out, etc., etc.
Later on, it turned out that not only he remembered what he said, but he even tried to JUSTIFY it.
What this tells me is that I cannot trust that flip-flopper ever again, no matter how my heart feels, how much I miss my husband and the good aspects of him, my head is finally in charge.
I simply do not want to be hurt like that ever again, and not to even mention that I will never be able to trust him again.
Later on, it turned out that not only he remembered what he said, but he even tried to JUSTIFY it.
What this tells me is that I cannot trust that flip-flopper ever again, no matter how my heart feels, how much I miss my husband and the good aspects of him, my head is finally in charge.
I simply do not want to be hurt like that ever again, and not to even mention that I will never be able to trust him again.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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I used to wonder whether my XAH really meant what he said when he was drunk too. I wonder about it much less now because I don't think he can even answer that question.
About a month ago he called me in the early morning just to tell me he loved me. He was clearly drunk at the time. A few days later he called me again in the early morning yelling obscenities, calling me names and saying I was lucky he put up with me as long as he did-no one else would have. Again, it was obvious he was drunk at the time.
So which is it? I really don't think he knows. There's so much inconsistency - you can't put any reliance in his words. It's not some deep secret that only comes to light when he's in an altered state...it's the incoherent ramblings of someone who is looking to get a reaction from me.
For the record...I don't answer his early morning calls anymore. And I'm happier for it.
About a month ago he called me in the early morning just to tell me he loved me. He was clearly drunk at the time. A few days later he called me again in the early morning yelling obscenities, calling me names and saying I was lucky he put up with me as long as he did-no one else would have. Again, it was obvious he was drunk at the time.
So which is it? I really don't think he knows. There's so much inconsistency - you can't put any reliance in his words. It's not some deep secret that only comes to light when he's in an altered state...it's the incoherent ramblings of someone who is looking to get a reaction from me.
For the record...I don't answer his early morning calls anymore. And I'm happier for it.
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Guava-exactly. I don't wonder about it anymore either-just the rambling a of a very messed up drunk. I too was on the receiving end of one day "you're the love of my life and you're my everything and the best thing that happened to me" to literally three days later "I wish I had never met you-you ruined my life. You're a crazy bitch". Hmmm. I don't care-that's all on him. And to be fair I too dealt my fair share of verbal abuse when I was drinking and thinking he was the answer to my unhappiness. Life goes on and the worst question is "why". I no longer question that-I don't know all the answers, don't have any clue but I have faith God knows exactly what He's doing-that's my peace. He is never wrong. Geez-this post made me think of just how greatful I am to not be living with the drunk rantings. Peace to you!
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Join Date: May 2013
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RAH has stopped the rantings since becoming sober, but is still very passive aggressive. Just tonight he saw a text on my phone that he felt I should have shared with him -- but instead of saying that, he makes up some story about hearing about someone that had an issue that was related to the text I got. So, I told him about the text...and he just asked a bunch of innocent questions. Why couldn't he say...hey I saw this text, why didn't you tell me about it? To which I would say..you were on a work call and I texted you but you never replied. So frustrating.
Really, he doesn't have much interaction with me at all. It is mostly just logistics stuff. It is hard to see him so chatty and charming with others but just plain nothing with me.
Not sure where I go from here. I would like to talk it through with an IC, but finding one that is available in the evenings is proving to be difficult. Going to see if there is an on-line option that might work.
It is good to read the posts about post-divorce relief from this crazy train. I think it gives me some idea that there is some hope if I go that route.
Blue
Really, he doesn't have much interaction with me at all. It is mostly just logistics stuff. It is hard to see him so chatty and charming with others but just plain nothing with me.
Not sure where I go from here. I would like to talk it through with an IC, but finding one that is available in the evenings is proving to be difficult. Going to see if there is an on-line option that might work.
It is good to read the posts about post-divorce relief from this crazy train. I think it gives me some idea that there is some hope if I go that route.
Blue
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bluetomato......I think that there is something that is so basic for us humans in our relationships with others----we cant to be "seen".....we want to be "heard"......we want to know that we are important....that what we thing and feel is important----in a word---that we truly matter....
These desires are normal.
Just something for you to keep in mind...
dandylion
These desires are normal.
Just something for you to keep in mind...
dandylion
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