NickOz21

Hey everyone,

I'm interested in AA as I was referred to AA actually by my psychiatrist.

I've read through the 12 steps and I feel a little bit of reluctance about 2 steps in particular.

Firstly, I am not at all criticizing AA. I'm sure it's worked wonders for countless people. Also, I am absolutely open-minded and respectful of other peoples beliefs.

1) There are several steps relating to God or a higher power of some kind... I'm agnostic (non-believer) who's not particularly spiritual or religious in any sense... So, I'm struggling to grasp these steps.

2) "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable." (Twelve-steps program - wikipedia)

When I look through these forums I see a persistent theme of the those demonstrating will power.

I see many people who have bravely made major personal changes to their lives by becoming and staying sober - of course, social support plays a crucial role but so does the strength required to resist temptation to relapse.

What are your thoughts?

Dee74

I'm not a 12 stepper, but the powerless part I have no issue with - look at the wording ' we were powerless' to me, that connotes past tense.

It was my very powerlessness over my addiction that bought me here, but I'm not powerless anymore, so long as I stay on my sober journey

As for the God/Higher Power stuff , all I'll add is that we have a forum here dedicated to secular approaches to AA

Secular 12 Step Recovery - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information
so it's not an impassable obstacle either

It's not a bad idea to check AA out tho - you may like it.
Alcoholics Anonymous

There are some good secular meeting based approaches to recovery outside AA too.

SMART Recovery Australia
LifeRing

D

NickOz21

Thanks a lot Dee74 for clearing that up.

TroyW

1.) Doesn't necessarily have to be "God". Can be anything you wish. A highly intelligent alien life form? The flying spaghetti monster? An AI robot?

2.) I could be wrong, but I think what it's basically referring to is you'll notice loads of people on SR saying that can not ever have a single drink again. Not one, but once the first one goes down, all bets are off. They have the strength and will power to never pick up that first drink, but once they do, yeah, they basically become powerless over alcohol.

NickOz21

Hey Troy,

I like the point you made about powerlessness. Most of the times when I drink it triggers a relapse... where I do in fact lose myself and drink until I am either unconscious or there's no alcohol available... I've even been known to steal others alcohol at times... which is certainly something I wouldn't do if I were sober.

As for the higher power part, I'm really not sure - flying spaghetti monster sounds nice

FreeOwl

Powerless doesn't mean we do not have the power to choose, the power of will, the power to take actions, the power to live our lives without alcohol.

God can come to mean many things.

The best way for you to find answers to your questions is to find your own answers.

The best way to do that is to give AA a legitimate, open minded try.

Set aside your judge, look for how it can help you rather than for what you object to.... You have absolutely nothing to lose and your life to gain.

countrygirl2014

If you have the big book of AA, there is a section just for you. Read "We Agnostics". I believe it is chapter 4. You don't need to become a Jesus freak to utilize this program. There will be very religious people in the rooms. I still go deaf when they speak. Organized religion is not for me. All you need is a power greater than yourself. That can be anything. My first "god" was nature. The wind, the water...all these things were greater than myself. My idea of this "power" is changing but...you get to choose your own "god". Try not to think to hard about it, it will only hold you up. Just keep an open mind to that. Some people consider the group conscience of the meeting itself to be a power greater than themselves.

Jennifer

Ruby2

What CountryGirl said. I still go selectively deaf sometimes on the God thing because while I'm not an atheist, could be borderline agnostic, I'm not exuberant. It depends on the meeting and the mix of people.

Powerless? My will power only works to keep me from picking up that first drink. Then all bets are off. I had to make fundamental changes in my life in order to stay sober. I had the power and the choice to be able to do so. Attending AA has made that easier because I'm around a bunch of people who on paper have little in common with me but fundamentally understand what I'm going through as they've been there before. But, as Dee said, there are secular support methods. Any method can be picked apart, criticized and reasoned away. Just do something. The most important thing is to pick something and go for it. If you need to make changes as you go along, you can make adjustments. If AA is near you, give it a whirl. You may not find it helpful but you may. It's free and you don't have to sign a contract. Give any method a fair chance. First impressions aren't always the best for anything.

For a long time I sat and thought about what would work for me. What wouldn't work for me. I'd come up with a bunch of "yes, but" scenarios in my head as to why it wouldn't. And I still kept drinking. Sometimes the inner voice to NOT do something is stronger than the voice of reason TO do something because you want to protect your drinking. Just pick something and get started.

IOAA2

Hi.

My powerlessness is demonstrated if I have a drink or two of alcohol then all bets are off. I can’t predict what will happen or where I’ll end up. This will happen because I’m addicted to alcohol and when I had one drink my body/mind cries out for more more more.

I’m not or have ever been religious, going to a church and worshiping a bearded robed something throwing lightning bolts which was my first reaction and imagination.
HIGHER POWER to me now is not the ego centered person I was drinking just something/someone more powerful than I. I’m comfortable with the Native Americans Spirit. Some refer to theirs as a Group Of Drunks. Whatever!

BE WELL

Fly N Buy

Welcome to SR, glad you're here!

I thought agnostics were of the mind that the existence of God was unknown and or unknowable. More of uncertain point of view and atheists were non-believers?

You might check out info on Jimmy Burwell - he was instrumental in influencing AA and finding the way for non-believers to gain sobriety through the program. The most well known agnostic in AA to my knowledge. There are friends here who know much more about him than I do for sure. The point is don't let the God thing stop you if you are considering AA.

"Jim Burwell's influence on Bill Wilson in the writing of the Big Book was described by Wilson himself in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age. Jim militantly opposed the usage of the word "God" in consistent adherence to his agnostic philosophy. A compromise was negotiated between Wilson and Burwell with the literary employment of such terms as "power greater than ourselves."

A.A. History - Jimmy B. - The Aetheist - After 19 Years

Keep coming back!

miamifella

Attending meetings and checking out the program is not a commitment. Reading is one way to understand, but I think the only way to really decide if it is for you is to give it a chance.

There are no membership rolls. You do not have to take on any obligations. Each time you go, you are committing to spending one hour listening to people speak. No one will bother you if you never come back again.

I am not in AA anymore and disagree with a lot in the program, but I think it is worth a try. You do not have to have it all figured out and agree with every aspect of the program to give it a shot.

Elizabeth333

I attend a couple of women only meetings. Although I too do not agree with some of AA's beliefs, I like hearing others speak and there is a wonderful closeness in the room. I also read books on mindfulness and walk in the woods. I have no control over booze or other people. This realization has been a gift to me and somehow has freed me. Still, I must remain always vigilant, as my mind can take me down, if I let worry and guilt in....

Lola23

Hi Nick - first of all, I think its great that you're asking the questions here. A lot of times, people see a couple of things they don't particularly agree with and immediately decide that option is not an option for them. Keeping an open mind never hurts. As a few people have already mentioned, remember that going to a meeting is not a commitment of any kind. Pick an "open" meeting in your area and check it out. An "open" meeting is open to anyone who is interested in AA, so you can just listen to what the meeting is all about and decide whether you want to come back. And maybe even go to a few different ones. They are all very different, there are some that I never felt any connection to, and others that I feel very close to the other people in the room.

In terms of the idea of higher power...one person I met put it in a way that really helped me. She said her "higher power" is the people that she has met in AA and have helped her along the way. She adamantly doesn't believe in God, and yet, she has been able to pick up the message of AA and has some great sober time behind her.

Anyways, check back in and let us know if you decided to give it a try. I'm always curious to hear other people's experiences with AA. Good luck!

JerryFish

This reminds me of a scene of one of my favorite series, House M.D.

He was in a group to get rid of his Vicodin addiction. The character Greg House is an absolute atheist.

I'll copy and paste the transcript of that part of the episode below. It starts when they're having a group meeting:

*

THERAPIST: How about you Greg? You thought about how to fix things with people in your life?

HOUSE: No need, people in my life have no expectations of me, makes all our lives easier.

THERAPIST: Apparently not. The first step in recovery...

HOUSE: [cuts him off] Is admitting I have a problem, I've obviously already done that or I wouldn't be here. I've even embraced step 2, I've admitted there's a higher power, may not be a god per se...[Therapist nods in acceptance] but that Andre the giant guy was powerful. Where I start to butt up against it is step 3, surrendering my will to this higher power. I'm sure Andre's ghost has my back and all but my free will, I never leave home without it.

THERAPIST: Kinda like your pills. If you could do this on your own I assume you wouldn't be here.

HOUSE: [thinks about it] True.

greens

Check out the secular forums like other people said. Have you looked into all of the alternatives to aa? I went to aa for Years it was very useful - I say get all the help and tools you need from wherever you can get them. A lot of people on here use rational recovery, or if your looking for face to face meetings smart recovery

Jfanagle

Nick, your post and questions are very reminiscent of my questions some years ago when I attended my first AA meeting out of sheer desperation. My drinking had consumed my life and all that was in it. The powerless part bothered me because it required me to face the fear that I already had that I was in fact unable to stop drinking, but I was reluctant to call that "powerless" how about "almost powerless?" I thought I just hadn't tried hard enough! What it boiled down to was admitting to myself that powerless or not I had a huge drinking problem, so I settled on accepting that as a fact. After all I was sitting in an AA meeting.

Now for the really big issue with AA, the "God" thing. I wasn't sure about God, but sure hadn't bothered him/her for a very long time and in fact this kind of tied in with the powerless issue. If I had to seek outside help from a God that I wasn't sure even existed then I must really be powerless and that was a deal breaker with the whole AA thing. Fortunately a fellow sitting next to me stopped me after the meeting and introduced himself and asked if this was my first meeting? When I asked how he knew he replied, "you had that look like I don't know why I am here and you kept looking at your watch to see if it was over yet." When I admitted that he was spot on he asked if I had an alcohol problem? I said, of course why else would I be here? Did he think it had been a toss up between an AA meeting or a movie? He chuckled and said I really didn't need to be concerned about all the other steps because I had taken the first so why not come back for the next meeting and see how it goes from there.

Fast forward 16 years and I still attended a few meetings a month, I reached resolution with the higher power concept by accepting a universal intelligence, that in the universe there exists cumulative knowledge and power that is greater than mine and I am free to tap into that with meditation and appreciation for an endless pool of answers that exist if I seek them out. Much of that I found by listening to those who had my problem with alcohol and resolved their problem. Those stories and the actions that these folks took turned out to be a higher power than I had on my own. I did take all 12 steps many years ago and continue to practice the last 3 daily. I have made myself available to people who have come after me and tried to share what I found. It has helped some but many others didn't find it useful. The act of being of service to others has made me a better man than I was when I drank and as a result I didn't need to drink to hide from myself. I still, like everyone else, have problems but I have learned a coping mechanism that allows me to deal with these problems without alcohol. I have people in my life both in and out of AA upon whom I lean when I can't do it by myself. In fact I have coffee every Friday with the fellow who was sitting next to me at that first meeting.

My drinking had shrunk my life to a fraction of what it had been and AA and the understanding that I had to get outside that tiny world has expanded life 10 fold. I learned to say I didn't have all the answers, to say I was sorry when I was wrong and make a continuing effort on a daily basis to be better today than I was yesterday.

Just my experience and whether this helps or not I wish you the best in you search for the answers that fit you.

Jon

graywh1teblue

Wow i just posted something very similar..this was helpful!

Lola23

Thanks for sharing that Jfangle. It was great for a newbie to AA like myself to read.

lighter

For me the first step is simple. If you can quit,and you want to quit, do so. In which case you are not powerless. If you cannot stop drinking... First step is obvious. You're gonna need help to quit.

Secondly my higher power isn't "God" it is people.

sean0621

I also found it hard to go through some of the steps at AA and it was hard to keep my interest in something I only half believed in. I searched and found a local meeting that did not push the God agenda. It promoted instead a living a healthy lifestyle and dealing with underlying issues of addiction. But what I found that worked for me was just that positive face to face support. Meeting with like-minded people that actually cared about me and held me accountable and helped me to hold myself accountable. I learned that the amount of work I put into the program would equal what I got out of the program. It's your sobriety do what works for you and stick with it.