ajarlson

Thought I'd start a new thread instead of hijacking the other one.

I had thought about this many times - a facility that understands that an elderly person that is addicted to alcohol and/or drugs and is there to provide assisted care which they need, without taking away their ability to get drugs and alcohol.
Just off the top of my head I say - great idea! My AM is not going to stop, and she refuses to go into care because she knows if she does they will make her stop. What if there were a place we could tell her, listen, you want to drink and take your drugs but we don't want you to fall down or live in filth and not be able to take care of yourself so would you check yourself into this facility so they can take care of you in a clean, safe environment and they won't stop you from ingesting whatever you want. She might actually consider that.
We can't make her go somewhere she doesn't want to go, as she can pull it together long enough to convince people she's ok.
What do others think of this? I haven't researched to see how many of these "wet houses" there are, or where they are - just curious about the reaction of others if these places exist and are accessible to elderly addicts/alcoholics.

ajarlson

Looks like these wet houses are only for homeless alcoholics.
I'm still curious to hear people's pros and cons for facilities of this type that would take in people that are a danger to themselves but won't stop drinking.

FireSprite

IDK - it's an interesting question. I have a client that is an advanced alcoholic, in his 70's & he lives alone in a 3-bedroom house with his cat. Last year he fell in his tub during one of his benders & it was days before someone found him. He was LUCKY that he was only dehydrated & bruised but not seriously injured.

He very much needs to live in an assisted living facility but won't even attempt it because none of the local groups will allow him to drink. He is QUITE determined to drink himself into the grave or until his health problems become so huge that those issues become more painful than detoxing. It is so sad & so difficult to watch. He rotates through caregivers frequently, has cut off his family completely & has been estranged from his wife for about 15 yrs (they even live in different states). Every time I have to talk to her she asks if I can tell if he'd been drinking, sigh.

I understand from the facility's POV - the liability would be ENORMOUS to insure the facility against drunken accidents & there is obviously no way they could control an active, advanced stage addict. I think for that reason alone, it would never work. It could also be an ethical issue - wouldn't their allowing the drinking be construed as enabling? Could that open them up to medical malpractice in a sue-happy society?

ajarlson

Yeah I figured legality would get in the way of facilities like that.
How about in home care givers... I wonder why my AM doesn't want to pay someone to help her, she has the money, instead of putting her friends and family through the hassle of driving over there and picking her up, cleaning up, taking her to the store etc. Perhaps there are services that would do that and look the other way when it came to her addiction, I don't know.

biminiblue

I have to say, maybe she has twisted in her little addict brain that remaining the "victim" is how she keeps family and friends in her life.

I don't know - but I've seen others who play the victim card. The other thing is that advanced alcoholism brings with it advanced mental illness and they really don't and can't think clearly. That would be a rational decision to pay for help. I know when I was drinking, even though I had plenty of money, I also had this running delusion that I was going to end up under a bridge somewhere and therefore didn't want to spend money on anything. Addiction has as its central theme, FEAR. It's almost the definition of the mental state.

IF the friends and family stepped back, it would force the issue one way or the other.

Refiner

Yep. The XAW of a dear friend of mine (both in their 70's and were married over 50 years) now lies in her own filth in her little apartment drinking her brains out, smoking her brains out, and taking all her "little pills" (painkillers and the like). She's a seflish, narcissistic, attention-seeking wretch of a person that would rather guild, manipulate, and PUNISH her family members before taking any responsibility like that. She now resorts to writing checks to the daughter that's a low-life scum bag to do her dirty drug deeds. Probably gets her her boxes of wine & cigs, too. Since that daughter has been on welfare and refuses to work her whole life (VERY abled body, but wants to lay in bed at home all day and drink/smoke/do drugs just like dear ole mom), she gladly accepts cash to fund her own worthlessness.

ajarlson

Yeah it's not rational. Eventually I suppose the friends that have been "helping" her out will quit. My half brother will eventually come to the end of his rope. It's a no win situation I guess.

Refiner

[QUOTE=ajarlson;5426269]Yeah it's not rational. Eventually I suppose the friends that have been "helping" her out will quit. My half brother will eventually come to the end of his rope. It's a no win situation I guess.[/QUOTE

Yes, she burned through all the family members who used to enable and has no friends. So now she entices the drugged up daughter by paying her.

FireSprite

There are definitely companions-for-hire that she can line up to drive her around, help her with basic chores & errands, etc. I don't mean a skilled medical professional just there to help with medical needs, but like an hourly personal assistant.

My client has both - nurses that visit regularly to see to his medical needs & a companion that drives him for groceries (& yes, the liquor store), to doctor appts, etc. It gets expensive, for sure.

I definitely agree that the F&F members don't have any obligation to do all of this FOR her. You have the right & the ability to just refuse.

ajarlson

Thanks FireSprite, I went NC with her back in November, it was limited before that. She has one friend left that will put up with her crap, and my half brother who doesn't live here is worried about her and is coming out at some point to check up on her. At this point the one friend may have walked away and my half brother may have come and gone, I have removed myself from the drama and really feel no remorse. She was never a mother to me, so unlike some other people on this forum who have fond memories or at least memories of a mother, I really don't. I was just curious as my half brother was asking a while back and I thought, maybe there are resources we don't know about, but I don't think so.

Kialua

Have you seen this article? I think Catholic Charities runs this one: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/ma...re-t.html?_r=0

tromboneliness

When my wife and I visited some assisted living places (and actually managed to drag my Dad to one!), there was one that had a wine bar. And for the most part, they didn't prohibit you from bringing booze into your apartment. That's for the type of assisted living that's for people who are still reasonably independent, though -- for the more intensive levels of care, that's where you ran into the no-access-to-booze policy.

T

ajarlson

Yeah, and for the most part my AM is independent, she lives in her townhouse, goes up and down stairs etc. She even has a cat she manages to feed. But then there are her drunken/stoned episodes where she falls down and hurts herself, not sure how much of that an assisted living facility would put up with unfortunately. Oh well. Not my circus, not my monkeys (new mantra)

FireSprite

Yeah, the independent living facilities or retirement communities are fine with it, but any kind of assisted living environment here locally has pretty strict rules around alcohol. One place told him he was welcome to drink so long as he provided a Doctor's note authorizing it as necessary. Another had a 2-drink per day restriction, which, of course, made him literally laugh out loud.

I've thought about this a lot since yesterday, it really is an interesting question/problem.

ajarlson

I thought so too FireSprite. I mean, they're not going to stop drinking so they'll just continue to deteriorate until they have to be in some hospital or nursing home anyway. But I guess the facilities have the same inclination as those of us that have gone NC - it's their choice to live that way and no one else has to be responsible for the consequences.

dionysos803

First off,great topuc for thought. My father is months away from drinking himself to death. the drinking will not end until he's dead. So be it...But hes too far gone to take care of himself any longer and none of us (his kids, ex wife or other family members) will take him in. He needs a facility like the one mentioned in this thread.

Sorry...heres my response to the quote above. We have methadone clinics on every other corner in urban areas. so what would be so wrong with a "wet house?" Besides pain clinics are the same thing as methadone clinics...just another place to go get your drugs from other sources that arent your primary health care provider.

Kialua

I tend to agree. I couldn't begin to imagine what it would be like to work in place like that though. The staff there must be angels.

FireSprite

Well, you're kind of talking apples & oranges there. People don't live at pain & methadone clinics; they simply provide controlled release of drugs to supplement detox off of opioids, not living quarters. Not the same thing at all, IMO.

Finding a facility that will help medically supervise an alcohol reduction program is really the same thing as an elderly rehab & that would require acceptance/acknowledgment of the problem by the alcoholic & some kind of program of recovery.

If we're talking about a place that wouldn't address rehab, just allow the addict to drink at will then surely they'd have to have some "rules" in place that might be difficult to enforce with certain intoxicated personalities. An "assisted" environment means they'd need a certain amount of care from staff - supervision of self-care & administration of their medications..... which begs the question of the safety of knowingly mixing meds & alcohol. How can they allow one patient free reign over their drinking & potentially dangerous behaviors & simultaneously guarantee the safety of others?

Again, I go back to the malpractice, liability & work comp costs of such places. Plus the need for skilled medical professionals with addiction specialties. And what about insurance? Long term care policies, Medicare/Medicaid, private insurance - are they likely to cover this type of place over a long term? (unlikely, alcohol abuse seems like a great reason for them to deny benefits) If not, would the out of pocket cost be too crippling for the average aging, retired alcoholic?

I really DON'T know..... just playing devil's advocate with the details.

Kialua

FireSprite there are Wet Houses that do allow men to come and go and drink at will until death. I posted this link previously that the Catholic Charities run.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/ma...re-t.html?_r=0

FireSprite

Interesting, thanks for the link. I don't know why I didn't just google it myself.

It seems that these facilities currently exist for homeless alcoholics with multiple failed attempts at detox; purpose being that it is cheaper to provide living quarters than it is to cover the medical & legal costs of injuries & arrests. One place I read about only accepted those with a minimum of 6 failed detox attempts. They are funded by a combination of government & charity money.

But I still think that it's a whole different ball game when we're talking about elderly late-stage alcoholics that aren't homeless or destitute & especially those with ongoing medical needs to manage. I think it would be difficult (not impossible) & expensive.