RobbyRobot

Hello Friends!

This new thread is a direct continuation of the posts in the discussion ending in "Robby's Thread II” found at:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post5417948

The threads related to the preceding above link going from last posted to first posted are below as follows:

Part III
The Alcoholism and Addictions Help Forums- by SoberRecovery.com (Authenticity III)

Part II
The Alcoholism and Addictions Help Forums- by SoberRecovery.com (Authenticity II)

Part I
The Alcoholism and Addictions Help Forums- by SoberRecovery.com (Authenticity)

I'm happy to finally have updated and completed the blending of the original "Robby's Thread" of March 2013 found here:

Part I
The Alcoholism and Addictions Help Forums- by SoberRecovery.com (Robby's Thread)

And so we continue in "Authenticity IV" our sharing of our awesomely remarkable real life experiences, insights, friendships, and fellowships.

Cheers!!

ScottFromWI

First post....glad this discussion is continuing! Lots and lots of rain here tonight, hope everyone is warm and dry.

Fly N Buy

Thanks Robby!

I am watching Netflix movie - The Battered Bastards of Baseball. Highly authentic team based in Portland late 70's. Last independent minor league team owned and run by Kurt Russell's Dad - Bing

For baseball fans or those who want to watch guys who truly bucked the system and played strictly for the love of the game - highly recommended documentary.
A group simply being true to themselves and the fans - amazing story.

EndGameNYC

I liked it.

I'm pretty sure Jodie Foster wasn't in it. You may have been thinking of her film Contact, which I did not see.

. . .

@Melissa and Robby. Some great personal stories continue to mark this thread, juxtaposed against what you've both been struggling with for several weeks. I'll add one of my most recent encounters.

I'd been searching for a woman with whom I had a relationship with that ended before I relapsed for three years in 2008. She's younger than I am, and the storm that was her unattended struggles, most of which she was not aware of, was just gathering during the time we were together. I didn't handle all that very well. I'd been searching for her because my intention was to make amends. Bad faith and bad behavior are not disqualified as reasons to make amends just because we commit them when we're sober or when we're just not drinking.

Anyway, I made a few sporadic attempts to find her on the 'Net over time, though I upped my efforts more recently due to the changes I've made in my life while sober. She sometimes used her middle name as her first name, and her first name has alternate spellings around the world. I don't know if that's what made it difficult to find her, but I never got any hits on the names I used. Until last week. She's an outstanding writer (free verse), and she started her own blog a few years ago.

So I read her stuff, which I think is great, and I used the email address on her blog to contact her. And then was also able to find her on Linkedin. Besides her writing, she's had some some impressive accomplishments over the years. She's also a dancer, and she's done some good work with mentally disabled people and the elderly.

I decided to first tell her my reactions to her work, how happy I was for her success, and tell her a little bit about what I've been up to since we parted. Whether or not she replied to my email, the amends would come later; I had no reason to expect that she'd even respond. She wrote back and said that she was very happy to hear from and expressed renewed interest in my work. We "talked" about her writing, books we like, and caught up on some history. This went on for a few days, until I wrote to tell her that I'd contacted her in order to make amends, though not in those words. She replied that an apology wasn't necessary, and took responsibility for some of her behaviors, describing her eventual struggles with anxiety and depression.

For now, we're becoming friends. I subscribed to her blog with a live bookmark so that I can see when she's added something new. I don't intend to be lovers with her again, and I hope that she doesn't express those kinds of feelings for me either, since that's something I cannot and will not do. I'm just in a very different place right now.

Making amends is very often a transformational experience, and if you don't do it, you'll never know. I hear a lot from people who talk about there being no value in "dredging up the past," dismissing the process because "the past is the past," or refusing to make amends because they believe that "the other person" was either "worse than" they were or started the whole mess in the first place. Other people convince themselves that they really didn't hurt "the other person" because he or she never said they were hurt. To me, this way of thinking is so far off the mark that it makes me wonder whether or not we're talking about the same thing.

It's not wishful thinking that we make amends for ourselves and regardless of the response we get, in order to move forward in our lives, to grow and to get ourselves to a better place. Yet it's been my experience that so many people dismiss what for me is an invaluable process as unnecessary, pointless.

So many of our better experiences in life are the result of doing what we don't want to do, putting ourselves on the line, working hard in order to make progress. Taking responsibility for our actions, including our words, in an intimate relationship is among the best things we can do, even when a very long time has transpired since we've harmed another person.

Fly N Buy

Yes Endgame - Contact is correct and the quote is from that movie. Had it confused with Stargate for some reason.

Aellyce

Hi Robby, Melissa, and friends.

I'm in! I like it when your threads have this name, Robby. Still need to catch up with the last several pages of the last thread, but I wanted to say hi I also want to thank you again for helping me clear my mind on my thread in regards to how to deal with my father's new condition.

That is a cool story, EndGame. I've been wanting to do something similar with my ex-gf for a good while, but always push the thoughts away, and then I keep feeling bad about it. She's been dealing with exactly the same situation with her father that I am in, staying in China. She's also been struggling with serious depression lately. I almost met her last weekend in Singapore, but thank God she canceled... it would have been a real mess having her around when I got that news about my dad... Right now is not a good time to do anything with her, but she's been on my mind on and off since we reconnected while I was in Asia. I just don't know how to handle the whole thing, mostly because I think she's not entirely "over me" judging by things she says in emails and on the phone. I also say to myself that I do not intend to be lovers with her again, but the truth is that I do have those kinds of thoughts about her sometimes. I am quite certain I don't want to be in a relationship with her again, but I am not immune to the more superficial part of the attraction, if that makes sense. This is one reason why I keep pushing away the idea of reconnecting with her much, although I agreed on spending a whole weekend together last week, which did not happen, so it's back to square one. I am really unsure what to do about the whole thing as I am uncertain about my true motives. I'm a bit afraid it might not end up making amends but making a mess. Maybe I'm just telling myself this as an excuse, but I'm really unsure what would be a really authentic way to deal with it.

Okay I got to go now; have a nice day everyone!

trachemys

Mornin'.

courage2

Hi Rob. I'm glad you started a new thread right away. Why wait around, right? There's plenty to be said & written with a group like you've so splendidly gathered here.

I hope there's something beautiful in your day. Oh -- Melissa's back, so that's a certainty! I hope you find joy in one another.

RobbyRobot

Mornin' y'all

Rainy here today headed for a high of 70F. It's already a really good day, lol. Washing up after getting out of bed had me noticing some blood gathering where my PICC line enters into the inside of my right bicep. A specially sticky clear plastic dressing covers the entrance. Lucky for me, my usual home visit provided by the nursing services was to arrive within the hour. She cleaned it up and applied a fresh dressing. No big deal. And being this is June 12th, I'm now done with my course of antibiotics too! So I'm no longer attached to pumpernickel ie my infusion pump. I still need an order issued to have the actual PICC line removed. Likely sometime next week. If it continues to bleed over the weekend, a quick trip to the ER will suffice.

Back in a bit. Taking it easy today.

alphaomega

Have already thought about my pal a few times today. I'm in our collective neck of the woods - FL -.

Wishing you and your bride a beautiful day of healing, love and peace.

Sending you the best of this delicious energy my friend.

XO AO

fini

Making amends is very often a transformational experience, and if you don't do it, you'll never know. I hear a lot from people who talk about there being no value in "dredging up the past," dismissing the process because "the past is the past," or refusing to make amends because they believe that "the other person" was either "worse than" they were or started the whole mess in the first place. Other people convince themselves that they really didn't hurt "the other person" because he or she never said they were hurt. To me, this way of thinking is so far off the mark that it makes me wonder whether or not we're talking about the same thing.

It's not wishful thinking that we make amends for ourselves and regardless of the response we get, in order to move forward in our lives, to grow and to get ourselves to a better place. Yet it's been my experience that so many people dismiss what for me is an invaluable process as unnecessary, pointless.

So many of our better experiences in life are the result of doing what we don't want to do, putting ourselves on the line, working hard in order to make progress. Taking responsibility for our actions, including our words, in an intimate relationship is among the best things we can do, even when a very long time has transpired since we've harmed another person.

thank you so much for this succinct expression of your experience.
it is exactly how i'm finding it to be in the amend i made a few weeks ago.
there is still one "big" one to make, and it's so helpful to see the re-iteration of the positive outcome and reason to do it, no matter what the response.

EndGameNYC

Thanks, fini.

I'm happy to read that you've experienced the potentially life-changing benefits of finding the courage required to make amends. I use the word 'courage' because it seems to me that most of us avoid this process due to fear, regardless of our cover stories. The word itself and all that it implies may seem overly seriously or dramatic, but how many people do we see here who avoid making themselves and their lives better due to intense fears around what people will think, around walking away from a life filled with self- and other- destruction, and around surrendering a relentless and withering sense of self-hatred?

Practicing courage doesn't guarantee redemption, but I've learned that it is one of the best ways to get there. The best part is that it's available to everyone. At the very least, I've almost always gotten a sense of abiding relief during and/or following my making amends.

When I got sober the first time around, many years ago, I made a couple of amends based on my selfish desire to relieve my guilt and remorse, to rehabilitate my reputation in their eyes (I wanted them to "like me" again and immediately), and on wanting something from the people with whom I was making my fractured amends. Guilt cries our for punishment. I wasn't at all concerned that my making amends might somehow stir up uncomfortable feelings, such as anger and guilt. These were not trivial matters at the time; the two people I had chosen were people who I'd hurt fairly regularly. One was my ex-wife. She basically laughed me off, whereas the other person told me to go **** myself.

Everything only got worse for me, the exact opposite of my childish desires. It took a lot of time and work for me to repair the damage I'd done to myself, though I did gradually and over time and repetition of self-harm learn a lesson from the whole experience.

There have been some discussions on fate on SR recently, and I'd generally prefer not to get involved. I will say that I believe that coming down in favor of predetermination offers only superficial freedom from taking responsibility for our lives, even if fate were "real." We have a strong desire to understand things, to make sense of whatever happens, to find a reason or an explanation for events, particularly those that are beyond our control. This is how pre-civilized humans interpreted natural disasters and periods of relief in between: the goal was to satisfy the gods through their actions. Some people choose one among many versions of what God is to explain things, while others choose science as a type of religion. And others still look to fate as a unifying principle, which only makes sense in retrospect, what I've referred to as "hindsight bias."

I'm more in tune with traditional concepts of karma...getting back from the Universe whatever we put out there. Not because the Universe monitors my actions or even "cares" about what I do and what I don't do. More than anything else, this is based on personal experience, including those of other people I've known. Whenever I've created a "rupture" in the larger Universe or in the one that I carry inside of me, I've eventually faced a day of reckoning, payback, reparations for my crimes. My behaviors have generally not been 'crimes' or 'sins' in the conventional sense, but disruptions in people's lives, harming people on an emotional level which, because we typically cannot measure such things, and because of the person I am, I take to be serious. I personally find it difficult for me to move forward in my life when I leave such harms unattended, even though my limitations tell me that I cannot make someone whom I've harmed whole again.

There's a physical and metaphysical saying, "The boomerang always comes back." In my life, when I throw the boomerang, it comes back twice as hard as I threw it. Even many years afterwards. Redemption is only available for me when I learn not to throw it in the first place. Making amends is part of learning that lesson for me.

Aellyce

My belief about the fate-related topic, and also my preferred way of thinking when it comes to ethics, is very much in tune with the concept of karma as well. In fact, I was very relieved many years ago when I had a period searching for something helpful to me regarding questions of morality as I felt about it, but nothing I encountered seemed to be too in line with my own thinking. My biggest problems with many views were that they involved attaching subjective qualifications to things and possible outcomes of events, and/or assumed an independent, static universal set of values against which everything is supposed to be judged and measured. Just does not work with my own thinking and beliefs.

I was in a meditation retreat once, led by well-known buddhist scholar Alan Wallace, who became my primary guide and favorite teacher in these practices and in a few way in a general world view. He had a very thoughtful and captivating way to explain his views about the interrelated and endlessly fluid nature of everything in the Universe. His retreats involve group meditations, his lectures, and discussion. We had an awesome dialogue in one of the group sessions about karma and applying that to problems of morality. It all pulled together wonderfully in the end, and a few other people said later that our discussion changed their world views in some important ways. It was such a cool experience for its own sake, but has been very helpful for me ever since when I need to think about ethics and consequences.

More on the amends: I never did it systematically as part of the 12-step program, but on my own intuitively and based on stuff I learned from people here on SR. A lot of the misbehavior and harm I caused when I was drinking heavily was work-related for me, and I think I did a pretty good job making amends in that area, a lot of which actually went far beyond simply trying to correct old problems, mistakes, and dealing with things I neglected, into new ongoing collaborations and perspectives. I have not dealt with issues and harm in personal relationships much though, except with those about my father, but those were not the most serious even. So I have these two exes that I would like to make amends to: one I mentioned above, and the other is further back in history, my alcoholic ex I wrote about a lot here on SR. That is the toughest, and for a long time I just wanted to stay away from communicating with him completely, because I was constantly afraid of the danger of relapsing, both with drinking and with our relationship, if we reconnected. None of us were abusive in the relationship and we did not even lie much to each-other given that we openly drank and often together. But we certainly drove each-other crazy in many ways during those years, and created a very obsessive, dark, and nihilistic atmosphere around our connection. I could not figure out a way to make amends about that which would not be highly personal, until very recently when I met him at a conference in Asia. Turns out, he seems finally out of the denial about his alcoholism and its consequences enough that he also wants to get and stay sober. He apparently had a few attempts but no success, and he is aware of my having been in recovery for a while. He approached me in person to talk about it, asking me to help him with suggestions. I did talk to him and sent him useful stuff via email later. We also talked about our past a fair amount, and how our drinking affected the relationship and eventually caused its decline. My problem is that, just like with my more recent ex I wrote about above, my feelings about all this are far from pure, and I am highly aware of it. I think I just never arrived to true closure with these relationships and still have resentments that they did not work out well. Resentments about my behavior mostly, not their side. But whenever I try to revisit, I find myself randomly having those thoughts I spoke of in the previous post, then I get frustrated with myself and don't want to deal with it. The problem is that it's not resolved.

There is another one that I struggle with regarding my past behavior, which is about my mother. We had a strained relationship in my childhood, and I came to understand all that all her much better later as an adult. She was very depressed and fighting her declining health during her last few years alive, and I was aware of it. She used to frequently beg me to go and visit them, but I always refused as a drunk, sometimes blurting out angrily why she was pushing me...until one day I got the call from my dad that she died the night before. And then I refused to grieve her. How can one make amends to someone who's dead now? I've been thinking a lot about her, our relationship, and my neglect a lot lately, it comes up all the time in my therapy sessions, lots of things I was in denial about for years, and am trying to deal with finally. Not with her though, sadly.

On the topic of making amends out of selfish desire and guilt... maybe I misunderstand... but in a way, isn't that exactly why it works? I really don't believe that the primary drive to do these things, and given why making amends can work so well in taking us to a better place, can be free of selfishness and not motivated by guilt. I certainly felt very guilty about a myriad of my actions from when I drank, and the reason why making amends can take me to a better place is mostly by relieving that guilt while hopefully doing something good to the other person in the present. Maybe I'm looking at the whole thing in a wrong way, but then I'm not sure how else?

ArtFriend

I would like some feedback regarding making amends. It involves my two brothers. (hope you don't mind).

I severed my relationship with my oldest brother back in the late 1980s. I just quit communicating with him due to his abuse of me and others (esp. my mom). And more recently I have severed ties with the other brother. Same reason, but different approach.

I know that I have not been all sweetness and light. I have said some really nasty things to both of them in my anger. They both feel victimized as do I. So, are amends warranted at this point? Should I reach out or will that only bring on more abuse and heartache?

Thanks

Gilmer

Timing is everything.

If the wounds you've caused are too fresh, they may not hear what you have to say.

If the wounds they've caused you are too fresh, you may end up in a mud-slinging contest if they challenge you.

Just my opinion--I would wait a good while until I was totally detached from the pain. You have to be able to accept potential negative responses without becoming defensive or hurt.

ArtFriend

Very good point Gilmer. I was just perusing this thread all about making amends and it popped into my head. I don't think I am ready to reach out in my current state.

Della1968

Ahhh amends. I have had no problem making them....except for the ones I haven't done. I struggle with the part about not doing them if they are harmful to others. There are a couple I am just not sure it would be the best for them. I don't think hearing from me would be beneficial to them or the people they are with. I don't want to make it all about me...so I procrastinate.

Aellyce

Similar for me. Why I have not been dealing with those exes and only tried when it was actually them reaching out to me first. But like I said, the whole thing in these situations does not seem clean to me in terms of the motives of everyone involved, and I am very aware of this. And because of this, I am not able to tell whether any outcome might be beneficial, or could potentially add harm to whatever happened in the past. So I procrastinated them and I just communicated with the people as though we were old friends, but I would not truly call that amends. On waiting... well, I am not so sure that time would resolve much of these mixed feelings and motives either. Maybe. They don't seem to exist now when we don't communicate, so I easily misread my intentions. And, I can assess my side more or less, but how do I assess their side? For me, it's not that the people are not ready to hear from me, much the opposite, the two I spoke of seem "too happy" to hear from me. I did not part with them in an ugly or hateful way when it happened, we still liked each-other very much despite all the storms during the relationship. And the mixed intentions could not be clearer to me now, it only takes me a couple of interactions for it to develop and for me to sense that. Can I realistically expect that to change and not cause complications at least in unspoken feelings, ever? I mean, these were two of my closest intimate relationships with some very deep-seated affection, I feel that having interactions with them beyond a day or two just reinstates the attraction, like when we crave alcohol in response to triggers. Of course I can behave and express myself as though this did not exist, but that would not be a honest approach on my part, I think. I would much more easily deal with negative reactions and rejection than these... triggers, fantasies, and mixed desires.

These are some of the things that have kept me from touching the personal relationships even though it does not require much special courage at all... the work ones needed the courage but have been far easier for me to execute. All these things can be quite complicated and confusing for me. I guess this is only one reason why people work on it with the help of a sponsor.

Venecia

As a term, "amends" is so rooted in the 12 steps that I think we forget what its universal, timeless value means, whatever the circumstances. It's acknowledgment of pain caused and the immense power of three very simple words: "I am sorry." They have the potential to bring about great healing. The potential.

What is it about the execution that causes such difficulty? Perhaps it's that the intent is sincere but the words are artless. Perhaps it's that the words are right, but the intent is insincere, or received as such. Sometimes, the timing just isn't right or the person delivering the apology is in a better place but the one receiving it isn't. I don't know, though I think the thoughtful posts here on the topic, and questions raised, indicate the amount of contemplation necessary to deliver and receive amends makes a very big difference.

I once was on the receiving end of an addict's amends. The words were so witlessly self-absorbed -- and carried with them an agenda -- that I couldn't decide whether be aggravated or amused. I was a little of both.

But the absence of an amends -- those three simple words -- can be destructive.

After I got sober, not quite two years ago, I found a friend in real life who became important to me and vice versa, or so I was told. It meant a lot to have a friendship with someone on the same journey, someone trying to rebuild after alcohol had done so much damage. I trusted the individual greatly, sharing confidences -- things that are, I am sure, inextricably entwined with my alcoholism -- that I have not spoken of before or since. Similarly, I spent a lot of time listening. And we had fun. For half a year, the very notion that I wasn't alone was comforting as was the sense that I somehow brought value to another person in recovery, too. I saw a lot of good in the person.

WIth the benefit of hindsight, I can see that anyone with a halfway decent bull**** detector could have recognized the lies stacked upon lies.

I believed every word. Right from the very start, which is exactly when they began.

It didn't end with a bang or even a whimper. Only in silence, save for an excruciatingly brief, cold email in response to my second request for return of things that belonged to me, items of significant personal value, after another half year had gone by. And then a package in the mail. No note.

Humans are capable of leaving terrible damage in their wake. It plays on the worst instincts inside us. What kind of idiot wouldn't have had a clue? I've asked myself. I'm not really worthy of being treated well, said a little voice inside me. Many, many times. I'm pretty sure it and the addictive voice are first cousins. I've tried to live a life that reflects my upbringing, in which honesty and kindness were both modeled and expected. Authenticity, as this thread it titled. But I haven't always succeeded. Sometimes, I fear this is all some cosmic retribution for a sin now more than two decades old, my involvement in a relationship that was wrong.

Lily Tomlin once wrote that “forgiveness means giving up all hope for a better past.” Her observation helps some, but in all honesty, forgiveness has eluded me. Maybe if I was a better person. There's that voice again. I try not to think about it much anymore. In altruistic moments, I do hope my onetime friend will someday achieve sobriety and recovery, will someday live in the solution.

It took me the better part of a year to simply believe it when I told myself "the past is the past, what's done is done." That is about as close as I can come to any resolution. I've grown to accept that the lies, then the silence, occurred, but that they don't define me or my future. The wounds are mostly closed. Still, my ability to trust others -- or my own judgement -- is eroded. Not irreparably, I hope.

While I'm a frequent flyer on SR, it's hard for me to share a lot about myself, the stuff rooted deep inside. It helps; I appreciate that, as I do the previous posts on this topic.

But the scar tissue is still there, and I have to live with that, too. And I've had to accept that there is very little, if any, likelihood that I'll ever hear the words that would help considerably: "I am sorry."

Dee74

I'm sorry for what is clearly still a painful experience Ven.

I got a lot about forgiveness out of a book I'm always touting here The Shack by Wm Paul Young.

The way he frames forgiveness was really a game changer for me