healthyagain

Just read something I'd love to share. It is quite connected to my last weekend's experience. It kind of made me uneasy. It is about abusiveness "during blackouts":

From Why Does He Do That

When I criticize my clients about their drunken abusiveness, they sometimes respond: "But I was in a blackout." However, a blackout is a memory disconnection that happens after a drunk person passes out, causing the person to no longer know what occured upon awakening. The person was still concious during the event. If you ask an extremely drunk but still-awake person what happened earlier that evening, he or she can tell you. Thus, there is no such thing as being "in" a blackout. The loss of memory happens later.

So let's say that I'm sloooowly backpedaling now, as this feeling builds up inside of my stomach. He only forgot what he said that night. Of course it does not mean he did not mean it.

But I'll be out of here soon. 12 days to go.

ladyscribbler

My ex got to the point where he blacked out pretty much daily. I know when I realized that he was still cognizant DURING the time that later became a blackout it was really devastating for me. I was able to stay in denial for a long, long time because "he was in a blackout, he didn't know what he was doing." That was when I realized how dangerous he really was. And that he was NEVER going to stop or get better and that him just quitting drinking (which he still hasn't done anyway) wasn't the magic answer to everything. Because it was HIM doing all of this stuff.
I used to give alcohol way too much credit for the abuse that went on in our relationship, because it mostly happened when he was drinking (probably because he was drinking most of the time).
Reading the stickies on abuse and then "Why Does He Do That" really opened my eyes to the reality of our relationship.
He wasn't a great guy who did bad things and couldn't help it because had a drinking problem. He was an abusive, controlling man who happened to have a drinking problem.
Stay strong healthyagain. I know how long that countdown is. Take care. We are here for you.

dandylion

healthyagain......I am not exactly trying to defend anyone here,,,,,,,but, when a person is intoxicated...it is not exactly like they are sober.......For example---the inhibitions are lowered as well as many functions of the frontal lobe where judgement, and lots of executive functions origionate. (even when there is no blackout experience).

dandylion

healthyagain

Very true, but the point is, he has it in the system. It can be dangerous to assume he did not know what he was doing. A person who is not abusive by nature will not abuse because of alcohol.

And dont ask me why I am awake. It is him again, not as bad, but him again.

LexieCat

The legal standard, in most places, for intoxication (voluntary--not that someone drugged you or spiked your drink) to be a defense in a criminal case, you must have "prostration of the faculties"--IOW, you are so intoxicated you can hardly control your movements. Loss of memory due to blackouts is no defense.

Many alcoholics subject to blackouts behave in seemingly normal ways. They carry on conversations, drive (eek), engage in all kinds of purposeful behavior. If you read the Big Book, there are personal stories of people who "come to" from a blackout and they are in places, doing things, but have no memory of where they are or how they got there. The people with them did not notice anything wrong.

So a blackout (and only some alcoholics get them) is nothing more than a memory loss. And, of course, some alcoholics CLAIM to have blacked out when they are actually just unwilling to acknowledge their behavior.

I never had a full-on blackout, I used to have what you might think of as "brownouts"--bits of conversation I didn't remember, minor events (things I saw or did or said) that I didn't remember. But I know people who have "lost" whole evenings, hours, or even days.

Duckygirl1

I was always skeptical of some of my ex's claims of blacking out. I don't think he really did , but tried to use it as an excuse. He could remember if he loaned one of his ne'er do well addict friends money, but couldn't remember saying horrible things to me the same night? Can't remember what drugs he took or how much he drank, but knows the name of the cop who pulled him over and the whole conversation with him? Like has been stated, they may not remember, but that doesn't mean they didn't mean it and it's no excuse.

healthyagain

It is absolutely possible that he does not remember his words due to memory loss that came AFTER the incident, but the point is, he was mean. Pure evil. His cognitive functions probably are impaired all the time and were very bad that night. But how come he never destroys something that is his? How come he is trying to be nice, and that niceness is Smeagol-like, because it is gone within seconds if I do not accept his proposal? ("Hey, let's have tacos tonight." And this means I'll be cooking, chopping veggies. I set the boundary that I won't while he is drinking actively and that he will have to cook for himself. So I say, "Oh, no, I have some stuff from the last night," or "I am really not hungry.") It is almost like being punished for not accepting, for not enabling. These are questions I ask myself.

Then this hideous name calling, that he supposedly does not remember. Or "a little." The pure hate I saw.

Now that the exit is so close, I am absolutely not engaging. I am being so civil, almost like the Queen of England. But this annoys him. He just cannot get inside of me, inside of my head. And he never never ever apologizes, NEVER says it will never happen again.

I simply cannot blame alcohol for everything. But let's say that more shall be revealed.

amandamarie

I can not agree with that, because the last time I drank I got into an argument with someone, and I honestly did not remember it. I was asked about what happened when I got home, because someone had called to tell what I had did and I really did not know. After I was told it took hours of thinking and sobering up to remember what really happened. It was still sketchy, but I remembered what started it, and what I had said. I have been to the point that I truly did not remember what I did or said 15 minutes before.

healthyagain

amandamarie, thanks and one question:
But what you said during this argument, is this something you stick to even when sober? Would you say, "No way I would ever say that. That is not what I stand for"?

amandamarie

No actually it is what I felt for a long time, and I just "filtered" it because I wasn't drunk enough to be that rude. I have the tendency to be a jerk when I drink, but it is usually things I mean, and just keep to myself sober. Then I would get drunk, and just say whatever it was I felt.

ladyscribbler

This is where we get into alcoholism and abuse being two separate issues. Do people get drunk and do things they regret? Yes. Even people who aren't alcoholics might tie one on and behave foolishly. I've done it myself.
But healthy again makes a good point- how come when he's in a drunken rage, supposedly out of control, he never destroys things that belong to him? That's part of the pathology of abuse. He might be drunk while he's doing it, but he's not doing it only because he's drunk, and the alcohol isn't CAUSING his behavior.
I used to think all alcoholics were abusive, because that's what I grew up with. It was a real eye opener when I started reading here and realized that's not the case.

LexieCat

We ALL filter things when we are sober. We shut up about things we might be thinking, either because we don't want to hurt someone, don't want to hurt a relationship, whatever. Even just plain politeness.

Drunk, a lot of that falls by the wayside, and we can be rude, mean--either deliberately or just because the filter is "off".

Haven't you ever had a dear friend you wouldn't hurt for the world, who does/says things that make you ******* CRAZY? You don't say anything, but internally, you're going "OMG, here we go again, can't she get OFF that stupid crap?"

Drunk you might actually SAY that. Not necessarily because you want to be vicious, but because the filter is "off" and it seems (in your intoxicated state with bad judgment) that it's about time someone set her straight.

So it's hard to say, sometimes, what the real intent is behind words that were said while drunk. Sometimes it's the filter being "off" and sometimes it's plain meanness and the desire to hurt.

healthyagain

Thanks again, and I truly appreciate your honesty and answer. You see, my husband insulted me on a very personal level last Sunday. I do not even want to write what he said, but something along the lines: a stupid, effing, *then insert my nationality*, b***ch will not tell me what to do and "if you try to do any of this sh** (meaning leaving him and looking for help), I am going to sue your a**." So, if he thinks that I am all that while drunk, he still thinks that while he is sober, only will not say it. He may have forgotten that it actually came out, but this is what he stands for, and it makes my stomach twist.

amandamarie

I am sorry you were spoken to in that way. It is hard to have someone you care about degrade you such a way

dandylion

Healthy.....I understand, completely, how you feel about his comments.
I think I would feel the same way.

Perhaps he is simply not as evolved as a person......a sensitive person that you would want to be your life partner.
Don't be afraid to call it as you see it.......

dandylion

NoelleR

I don't know about 'most places,' but that don't fly here (TX), or CA, or NM, or AZ or LA.

healthyagain

And speaking of memory loss, it can happen to anyone, not only alcoholics.

I just realized my sister had one a few months ago. A 30-year-old who never drinks, and under the pressure of her now ex-boss and colleagues from work, she had Red Bull + vodka. She told me how she did not remember anything that happened that evening, but that they told her that she was "fun to be around, and talkative." I had to scold her for this big time and told her she was lucky not to be raped or robbed. She described this as getting "drunk," and said she would never ever do it again. This was her first time drinking!

God, I hate alcohol.

Needabreak

The reality is, he said it. And his behavior that night scared you to the point of you calling a DV hotline.

If a guy goes out and drinks 20 martinis, staggers to his car, drives home and hits a minivan with a family in it, killing all of them, he is guilty, whether he can remember the incident or not. The heartbreak etc., are reality, whether he can remember the incident or not. He will (or certainly should) go to jail and lose everything he has to lawsuits -- whether he can remember it or not. He has proven himself a to be dangerous to others -- whether he can remember it or not.

Many people excuse the most horrific verbal, emotional and even physical abuse, saying "he was just drunk." Abuse is abuse. Recklessness is recklessness. It doesn't matter if the person is drunk. Their actions are real, and have an impact on others regardless of whether they are drunk.

When such a person chooses recovery, that's another thing. But from the sounds of it, your husband hasn't.

NYCDoglvr

What I learned upon getting sober is that I'm responsible for all my words and actions, including when I was blacked out (very often, unfortunately). I'm an addict, but I always have a choice of whether to drink or not (it's not a disease of the elbow). Glad you're almost out of there.