ACOA - and ACON
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
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ACOA - and ACON
Hi group! I just wanted to share a realization I've had about my mom, and an awakening I've had in my recovery process, in case it might help other people in theirs.
I am 99.99% positive, at this point, that my mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and is undiagnosed. Most people with NPD are undiagnosed, as a narcissist is, by definition, less willing to admit to any flaws (i can't remember my mom EVER uttering the words 'i'm sorry' in my entire life), and on top of that, she is a psychiatrist (well, was). Doctors are always the worst patients, and it's well known that therapists have a harder time treating each other, and it when you add on the NPD element it makes perfect PERFECT sense why I could never get my mom to seek treatment, or tell me she'd ever been diagnosed with anything, when I always knew she MUST have been. There were a couple times when I told her I wouldn't communicate with her unless she started seeing someone and there was ALWAYS some excuse. This was BEFORE the drinking and, as far as I know, before the pills.
That's what I wanted to tell you guys about. SR has been... I can't express how helpful it's been. 'Helpful' doesn't even cut it!! You guys - grits, ajarlson, double dragons, happybeingme, anybodynobody, noegoamigo, everyone else - made me feel after 32 years like I was not alone! I'd only had one friend who had actually gone through any of this. All of you probably know what I'm trying to say
There's been this piece that's missing when I come here or read my ACOA books though, because I didn't grow up in an A household.
So I've been looking looking looking. I found OutoftheFog, and OutoftheStorm. (also the ACON forum on mdjunction .com).
Out of the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) is a website for people dealing with living with someone with one of the Personality Disorders; Out of the Storm is for people who are working through something people using that website have coined 'complex PTSD.' c-ptsd.org ) Regardless of labels, I think I deal with the emotional flashbacks they talk about there - sudden waves of overwhelming shame and guilt that block out every other thing in my mind, shortness of breath, reduced motor skills and critical thinking, a lot of other things... it's like an anxiety attack but it's what I'm talking about here, kind of, when I get my mom's voice in my head. 'the inner critic'
Both sites (ootf/oots) are pretty jargon-heavy; my skepticism about self-help/new lingo is being mitigated by the feeling of truth and recognition I am finding in the stories I am reading in those forums. A rose by any other name, I guess. If I feel like SR is my 'internet home', then I feel like I feel like I found my second home there. I am finally starting to be able to understand - to REMEMBER - what was so weird about my mom and the way I grew up, and to feel like there's a template for dealing with it - and most amazingly, that I am not alone. Other people were treated this way by their moms.
I know my mom was dealt a really sh*tty hand... early childhood trauma in a generation when those things weren't talked about let alone dealt with in a nurturing way, followed by more violence, trauma, and heartbreak and loss. And I know she really did the best she could in a lot of ways, and that she loved me so much, and that she DID show me a lot of love when and how she was able to. I mourn that mom. But I am so grateful that I don't have to be in denial any more about the rest of the stuff that came with the good.
I'm trying not to get stuck in 'analysis paralysis' but I need to be able to say, I'm an adult child of an alcoholic/addict, and the adult child of a narcissist. There are a lot of both, and support and books for both. BIG HUGS FOR ALL OF US!!!
I am 99.99% positive, at this point, that my mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and is undiagnosed. Most people with NPD are undiagnosed, as a narcissist is, by definition, less willing to admit to any flaws (i can't remember my mom EVER uttering the words 'i'm sorry' in my entire life), and on top of that, she is a psychiatrist (well, was). Doctors are always the worst patients, and it's well known that therapists have a harder time treating each other, and it when you add on the NPD element it makes perfect PERFECT sense why I could never get my mom to seek treatment, or tell me she'd ever been diagnosed with anything, when I always knew she MUST have been. There were a couple times when I told her I wouldn't communicate with her unless she started seeing someone and there was ALWAYS some excuse. This was BEFORE the drinking and, as far as I know, before the pills.
That's what I wanted to tell you guys about. SR has been... I can't express how helpful it's been. 'Helpful' doesn't even cut it!! You guys - grits, ajarlson, double dragons, happybeingme, anybodynobody, noegoamigo, everyone else - made me feel after 32 years like I was not alone! I'd only had one friend who had actually gone through any of this. All of you probably know what I'm trying to say
There's been this piece that's missing when I come here or read my ACOA books though, because I didn't grow up in an A household. So I've been looking looking looking. I found OutoftheFog, and OutoftheStorm. (also the ACON forum on mdjunction .com).
Out of the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) is a website for people dealing with living with someone with one of the Personality Disorders; Out of the Storm is for people who are working through something people using that website have coined 'complex PTSD.' c-ptsd.org ) Regardless of labels, I think I deal with the emotional flashbacks they talk about there - sudden waves of overwhelming shame and guilt that block out every other thing in my mind, shortness of breath, reduced motor skills and critical thinking, a lot of other things... it's like an anxiety attack but it's what I'm talking about here, kind of, when I get my mom's voice in my head. 'the inner critic'
Both sites (ootf/oots) are pretty jargon-heavy; my skepticism about self-help/new lingo is being mitigated by the feeling of truth and recognition I am finding in the stories I am reading in those forums. A rose by any other name, I guess. If I feel like SR is my 'internet home', then I feel like I feel like I found my second home there. I am finally starting to be able to understand - to REMEMBER - what was so weird about my mom and the way I grew up, and to feel like there's a template for dealing with it - and most amazingly, that I am not alone. Other people were treated this way by their moms.
I know my mom was dealt a really sh*tty hand... early childhood trauma in a generation when those things weren't talked about let alone dealt with in a nurturing way, followed by more violence, trauma, and heartbreak and loss. And I know she really did the best she could in a lot of ways, and that she loved me so much, and that she DID show me a lot of love when and how she was able to. I mourn that mom. But I am so grateful that I don't have to be in denial any more about the rest of the stuff that came with the good.
I'm trying not to get stuck in 'analysis paralysis' but I need to be able to say, I'm an adult child of an alcoholic/addict, and the adult child of a narcissist. There are a lot of both, and support and books for both. BIG HUGS FOR ALL OF US!!!
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: east coast
Posts: 1,332
Seesaw, you are doing great. I am 42 and have just started dealing with my mother issues. My mom is not an alcoholic or addict. She is an undiagnosed NPD. I will recommend another site. The site reddit has some subs dedicated to ACON. They are a very supportive place and not medical heavy.
Thanks for the names of the other ones
Thanks for the names of the other ones
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 254
thanks everyone
happybeingme, i googled 'reddit npd' and SO MUCH came up!!! what do you look at? i'm not very reddit savvy but i have a feeling i'm about to be. 'you know you're ACON' was a humdinger...
happybeingme, i googled 'reddit npd' and SO MUCH came up!!! what do you look at? i'm not very reddit savvy but i have a feeling i'm about to be. 'you know you're ACON' was a humdinger...
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 315
I'm pretty sure my mom fits that description but of course there will never be a diagnosis. Even though she only raised me for a few years it sure did a number on my self confidence and self worth.
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
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hugs, ajarlson! I know there will never be a diagnosis either - but again there rarely is for NPDs. My 'inner critic' is a pretty active participant in my daily life, as well. I'm glad we're here and talking about it!
Bunnies!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
My mother is also NPD. There's no cure for that, especially when you throw alcohol into the mix. I've been known to want to give her alcohol because she's more tolerable drunk than sober. Vinegar runs in that woman's veins regardless.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,785
My mother has NPD as well, I discovered it about a year ago. If you google parrishmiller character traits of a narcissistic mother you can find it.
I stumbled upon it while looking at Passive Aggressive tendencies because I thought that was what I was dealing with. When I found the traits of NPD I nearly fell off my chair, I had found it! The puzzle all fell into place, my life/relationship with my mother fell into place. I read those traits through tears.
I finally had validation that I was not crazy, that while I have my own issues, that her treatment of me and her behavior towards me had nothing to do with me, I was a victim then and a survivor now.
The Out of the Fog website and message board helped me a great deal. Before I discovered she had NPD I had decided to remove her from my home. During that process I discovered she was a narcissist and made the choice to go no contact.
I have not seen her nor spoken to her since June. It is the second best decision I have made for me and my life. It is a process, a journey but it is much better now. I have bad days but I can deal with it now since I have stopped any new emotional abuse from happening.
I bought and read the book "Will I ever be good enough?" by Karyl McBride. It was a great book and it helped me a lot.
I stumbled upon it while looking at Passive Aggressive tendencies because I thought that was what I was dealing with. When I found the traits of NPD I nearly fell off my chair, I had found it! The puzzle all fell into place, my life/relationship with my mother fell into place. I read those traits through tears.
I finally had validation that I was not crazy, that while I have my own issues, that her treatment of me and her behavior towards me had nothing to do with me, I was a victim then and a survivor now.
The Out of the Fog website and message board helped me a great deal. Before I discovered she had NPD I had decided to remove her from my home. During that process I discovered she was a narcissist and made the choice to go no contact.
I have not seen her nor spoken to her since June. It is the second best decision I have made for me and my life. It is a process, a journey but it is much better now. I have bad days but I can deal with it now since I have stopped any new emotional abuse from happening.
I bought and read the book "Will I ever be good enough?" by Karyl McBride. It was a great book and it helped me a lot.
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: east coast
Posts: 1,332
I am glad to meet others who know exactly what I have dealt with. My mom is a rather covert narcissist. She is the queen of the victim/martyr, gaslighting, and passive aggressive behavior. She groomed me from birth to be her caregiver and confidant. I have been extremely codependent most of my life.
I am actually shocked I ever left home, married, or had children.
I am no contact as well. It was hard in the beginning. I actually obsessed over her the first few months. It was about August last year. Today I am grateful I did. I feel such peace not having her in my life anymore
I am actually shocked I ever left home, married, or had children.
I am no contact as well. It was hard in the beginning. I actually obsessed over her the first few months. It was about August last year. Today I am grateful I did. I feel such peace not having her in my life anymore
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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August here, too!!
happybeingme, I could have written that, except that I don't have kids. I'm so grateful for CODA. I still need to be more familiar with 'victim/martyr' - I intuitively know that's what she is, but in the context of npd. Also 'covert'? As in, acting as if everything's for YOU when really it's all about them?
happybeingme, I could have written that, except that I don't have kids. I'm so grateful for CODA. I still need to be more familiar with 'victim/martyr' - I intuitively know that's what she is, but in the context of npd. Also 'covert'? As in, acting as if everything's for YOU when really it's all about them?
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 315
On the nose seasaw - at least when it comes to my mother. It's always about her, even when she's pretending it's about someone else. And she's always the martyr. So glad I don't have to deal with that anymore.
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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Posts: 254
RIGHT?!
Interestingly, I could when my mom would, as I called it, 'slide into doctor mode.' I think she was able to help her patients in a lot of ways (for those just tuning in, she was a psychiatrist). I could tell when she did it with me, because of the stark difference in the way she would listen and ask questions when something was wrong with me - if I had physical or emotional symptoms, she would sometimes react concernedly and ask solution-seeking questions, like, you know, a person who wanted to help and had the knowledge to do so. And I called it doctor mode because the person talking was so smart and knowledgeable unlike the shrieking maniac I was usually dealing with.
Interestingly, I could when my mom would, as I called it, 'slide into doctor mode.' I think she was able to help her patients in a lot of ways (for those just tuning in, she was a psychiatrist). I could tell when she did it with me, because of the stark difference in the way she would listen and ask questions when something was wrong with me - if I had physical or emotional symptoms, she would sometimes react concernedly and ask solution-seeking questions, like, you know, a person who wanted to help and had the knowledge to do so. And I called it doctor mode because the person talking was so smart and knowledgeable unlike the shrieking maniac I was usually dealing with.
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bullhead City, Arizona
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by ajarlson 
It's always about her, even when she's pretending it's about someone else. So glad I don't have to deal with that anymore.
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: east coast
Posts: 1,332
I call my mother a covert narcissist because at first glance she is sweet, kind, and seems to generally be interested in you. Once she has you hooked then all the crazy comes out.
My mom has spent her life wavering between nothing is fault, she did nothing to cause xyz ( victim) and I sacrificed or did abc (martyr). And she reinforced these things in me over and over until I was completely brainwashed. Unfortunately I adopted many of these behaviors myself. Which is probably my biggest single regret. Realizing how much I am my mother's daughter.
My mom has spent her life wavering between nothing is fault, she did nothing to cause xyz ( victim) and I sacrificed or did abc (martyr). And she reinforced these things in me over and over until I was completely brainwashed. Unfortunately I adopted many of these behaviors myself. Which is probably my biggest single regret. Realizing how much I am my mother's daughter.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ohio
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Originally Posted by seasaw
she would sometimes react concernedly and ask solution-seeking questions, like, you know, a person who wanted to help
It was her weapon of choice. If you got a new look she would remark how you did look good and much better than year ago when you looked like crap. If I showed I was hurt or made a comment she would remind me that I told her I felt like crap back then so she could deflect blame.
This was how she was with everything I shared with her. Emotional, physical, relationship, financial, employment...didn't matter.
There was always two sides. Either I was ignored to the point she would read right in the middle of a conversation or I could just stop in mid sentence or leave the room and she never even noticed or you got the intense interest.
Either way was painful. One was immediate and the other was brewed and methodical.
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Originally Posted by happybeingme
I call my mother a covert narcissist because at first glance she is sweet, kind, and seems to generally be interested in you. Once she has you hooked then all the crazy comes out.
My mom has spent her life wavering between nothing is fault, she did nothing to cause xyz ( victim) and I sacrificed or did abc (martyr). And she reinforced these things in me over and over until I was completely brainwashed. Unfortunately I adopted many of these behaviors myself. Which is probably my biggest single regret. Realizing how much I am my mother's daughter.
My mom has spent her life wavering between nothing is fault, she did nothing to cause xyz ( victim) and I sacrificed or did abc (martyr). And she reinforced these things in me over and over until I was completely brainwashed. Unfortunately I adopted many of these behaviors myself. Which is probably my biggest single regret. Realizing how much I am my mother's daughter.
People just adored my mother at first. "why do you talk to your mom like that, i wish my mom was that nice/caring/funny/___!!" from everyone. I would just tell them they didn't know her like I did.As for inheriting behaviors... It's like we say in other circumstances on this board, we act crazy in crazy situations. At least we're self-aware!!! That's an enormous difference between you and your mother, hbm! This has been on my mind lately. Partly because I was taught so many wrong - just wrong - behaviors and coping mechanisms by my mom, I treated my first boyfriend unfairly sometimes (not that that was a one-way street...). He and I were together over 10 years. It's hard to admit I was wrong, but scarier to think I'm acting 'npd' and NOT admitting I might be wrong! I think part of my personal recovery is going to be making a really honest amends, of a sort, to him. I'm a leeeeeettle nervous about this, and am not in any rush.
this one's for all of us:
??
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