"Triangulating"
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"Triangulating"
Originally Posted by thotful 
I can only make guesses on this based on my own experience. When I used to triangulate (and I DID it a lot). Heck, I even get urges to do it now. My primary reason was because it was easier. It's easier to talk to someone else and have them pass the message on. That person won't confront you and disagree with you. They just act as the messenger.
My Dad -- you guys know we had a complicated relationship -- and I were never any good at communicating directly. In my adulthood, the way I would tell my Dad that I loved him and that he was important to me was very indirect: I'd call him and say, "Hey, Dad, I've been having some trouble with the truck -- it's sometimes hard to start when it's cold, and sometimes it idles rough. Is that some kind of ignition thing, or what should I be looking at?" That was my way of saying, "I value your wisdom and experience, and appreciate the hours we spent in the garage together when I was growing up."
About other personal stuff, my Mom was usually the messenger. This was one of the major reasons why my relationship with my Dad went so sharply downhill after she died -- there was no longer a "buffer" between me and Dad, so things got openly hostile at times, and other times, I just didn't answer the phone when he called.
But before that -- back when my qualifier was in treatment at "the Spa," I went up there for a few days for their family program. It was great -- meetings, speakers, clinicians, group discussions, basically Al-Anon all day. Well, every evening, they would have a patient from the "treatment" side of the house come over and talk to us. One of the speakers was a recovering heroin addict, who told of having basically missed his father's death -- the guy was in the hospital, breathing his dying breath, and the speaker would just drop by for two minutes to visit, and then run across the street or across town to get his next fix. His father died, and he was still haunted by these circumstances, 11 years later. I chatted with him briefly after his talk, and told him how sorry I was that he had missed the chance to talk to his father. My father was still healthy and active at that point, I said. Well, he told me, "You have a chance to do it right. Don't blow it. Go home and write your Dad a letter, if you can't talk easily, and tell him how much he means to you. That'll be great for both of you. Don't miss it, like I did!"
I went home, and sat down and wrote my Dad a letter -- probably 5-6 pages, single-spaced. I told him how much I appreciated the things we did together, how supportive he was when I was in bowling tournaments, why I didn't follow in his footsteps as a scientist (I felt I would have been too much in his shadow), and went on about things I learned and valued from our relationship.
I dropped it in the mail... and thought to myself, "Dad's not going to say anything about it. But I bet he'll talk to my Mom, and she'll call." Sure enough, about ten days later, the phone rang. It was my Mom: "Dad got your letter, and he was really happy to read it. He was unsure of what you thought of him, and whether you thought he did the right things with you when you were growing up. He was so glad to hear those things from you."
That's how we were -- my Mom was the messenger, and Dad and I tended to communicate through her... until she died.
It's complicated -- as I posted last week, I actually changed my middle name so that it's not my Dad's name anymore. Obviously, there is a strong anti-Dad component in that. But at the same time, he did a lot of right things, too; taught me a lot, supported the things I wanted to do, was loyal to a fault, and at the end of the day, he loved me -- I don't know how else to put it. I hate it when people are always saying, "Our parents did the best they could," etc. I mean, everyone, by definition, is doing the best they can; it's not like people intentionally screw up their kids, have toxic relationships, and otherwise try to maximize their own misery and that of the people around them. So I'm not going to say my Dad "did the best he could." But along with all the ACoA things -- my Dad's incessant criticism, attempts to control us, rage, alcoholism, and all of that -- there were a lot of positives, too. He was a complex person, both good and bad.
But I digress. We certainly did "triangulate," in any case!
T
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I am glad you can see things more clearly now. It is nice to read that you have good memories as well.
I do have to comment on one thing. Some parents do NOT do the best they can. They would have to care. Some don't. While my mother did do some really decent things none were ever done unless she got something from it.
I do have to comment on one thing. Some parents do NOT do the best they can. They would have to care. Some don't. While my mother did do some really decent things none were ever done unless she got something from it.
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That's a great post, yeap sometimes we can focus on the negatives, but if we dig deep there can be positives too, maybe not on the parenting side of things, but everyone has strengths and things they can bring to life, even if they get side tracked by addiction along the way.
My own example is my dad was a guy who if you needed something explained, cars, electronics, anything mechanical, he was the man, and even though he may have been showing off how much he knew, he would sit me down, get a pen and paper out and draw some diagrams to explain what he was talking about, something so small I only realised when he had passed away, but I chalk that up as one of his talents, explaining something, showing people things, and taking the time to do it!!
My own example is my dad was a guy who if you needed something explained, cars, electronics, anything mechanical, he was the man, and even though he may have been showing off how much he knew, he would sit me down, get a pen and paper out and draw some diagrams to explain what he was talking about, something so small I only realised when he had passed away, but I chalk that up as one of his talents, explaining something, showing people things, and taking the time to do it!!
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I missed my dad's death and have struggled for years to resolve that guilt. I was on a trip to Hawaii when he was admitted to a clinic for excessive drinking, and the nurse told me I didn't need to rush back, so being deep into my own alcoholism, I tarried, and when I got back I got a call from the hospital that he had died suddenly of withdrawal complications. Ouch. I've had to do a lot of counseling over that one.
We weren't close because he spent his life working overseas in exciting, dangerous places like Vietnam and Borneo, sending checks home for Christmas and birthdays. About every year or two he'd fly home for a couple of weeks and be drunk when he got off the plane until he headed back out. Lots of great stories, but not much bonding in that.
I admire the fact that he lived the life he wanted and still supported us, at least until about the high school years, but it sure would have been nice to have a dad around growing up, especially after my sister was killed in a plane crash. My mom did the best she could but had her own problems, and fears, and strong religious beliefs, so a lot of my acoa traits came from that childhood.
We weren't close because he spent his life working overseas in exciting, dangerous places like Vietnam and Borneo, sending checks home for Christmas and birthdays. About every year or two he'd fly home for a couple of weeks and be drunk when he got off the plane until he headed back out. Lots of great stories, but not much bonding in that.
I admire the fact that he lived the life he wanted and still supported us, at least until about the high school years, but it sure would have been nice to have a dad around growing up, especially after my sister was killed in a plane crash. My mom did the best she could but had her own problems, and fears, and strong religious beliefs, so a lot of my acoa traits came from that childhood.
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Thanks so much for your post! Story of my life as well. All communication seems to flow through my mother (your father thinks this, your father thinks that). One of these days, I'd like my father to actually speak to me about something besides a dumb foot-ball game. Like maybe, my sobriety? Estrangement from two of my siblings? Expressing interest in my life? And no, I don't consider a message coming from Mom representing communication from him.
Trom, your story resonates with my own story - if my Mother wasn't there passing messages, I don't think I would EVER hear from my father (other than a check mailed each year for Xmas that says "don't spend it all in one place"). I would probably experience the same circumstance that you have.
I might consider doing the same thing you did. Some sort of letter. I thought about sitting down to talk with him, but my experience has been that he is non-communicative. I just get a weird grunt or simply nothing at all. Just silence. It's really creepy. Like...umm....are you in there? helllllooooooooo.......I once told him in person that I knew he suffered from alcoholism and there's nothing he could do to remove the disease and nor could I and that I was there to support him. NOTHING was his response. Absolutely nothing. It's annoying. was I talking to a wall there?
I guess I can't stop people from attempting triangulation. I suppose I could refuse to accept messages from party A that's being conveyed by party B. I could stop party B mid-sentence and say, "I would love to hear this from party A - thanks for the thought."
I have something serious to contemplate here....a letter to my dad...hmmm...thanks Trom!
I wonder...
Trom, your story resonates with my own story - if my Mother wasn't there passing messages, I don't think I would EVER hear from my father (other than a check mailed each year for Xmas that says "don't spend it all in one place"). I would probably experience the same circumstance that you have.
I might consider doing the same thing you did. Some sort of letter. I thought about sitting down to talk with him, but my experience has been that he is non-communicative. I just get a weird grunt or simply nothing at all. Just silence. It's really creepy. Like...umm....are you in there? helllllooooooooo.......I once told him in person that I knew he suffered from alcoholism and there's nothing he could do to remove the disease and nor could I and that I was there to support him. NOTHING was his response. Absolutely nothing. It's annoying. was I talking to a wall there?
I guess I can't stop people from attempting triangulation. I suppose I could refuse to accept messages from party A that's being conveyed by party B. I could stop party B mid-sentence and say, "I would love to hear this from party A - thanks for the thought."
I have something serious to contemplate here....a letter to my dad...hmmm...thanks Trom!
I wonder...
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I'm in the same boat as happybeingme. Some parents don't do the best they can because they don't care about anyone but themselves. I have nothing good to say about my mother. Anything she did for anyone always had to have some bigger benefit to herself, else it wasn't worth doing. And she triangulated all of us against each other. If I was getting close to her boyfriends, she'd spit little bugs in our ears and watch as we fought each other and came to her to "make it right". She loved watching happy people tear each other apart so that they were no longer happy. That's how she's always worked. No love lost there. Won't be attending any memorial or funeral for her. I have nothing to say.
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NWGRITS I was in that boat too. I am convinced my parents didn't do their best at all. From my blog I have said that sentence that stands out above all others to me. "They did the best they could..." like that is supposed to make it all right and we are supposed to be reasonable and even feel bad for them, because hey, they tried, they did their best.
Tried what? Tried beating, tried intimidating, tried neglect, tried scaring, tried hating, tried gossiping, tried dividing, tried manipulating, tried terrorizing, tried what?
I don't recall any trying really. I recall never once having a parent show up at a school or church function. Never once having been comforted, nurtured, helped, encouraged. I didn't have clothes that weren't used and tattered, I didn't have shoes that fit, I didn't have medical attention more than once. There was no cuddling and reading a bedtime story. There was no walk in the park.
Their best was constant chaos, fighting, screaming, blood and bruises. Their best was constantly moving, no friends because they might find out how we live. Their best was no furniture, no pictures on the walls, no paint on the walls, no decor objects because it was thrown and broken and belittled if held dear. Their best was drinking, being gone and totally not involved in their children's lives. And their best was dividing all my siblings one against that stands today.
They actually didn't try, and it was no ones best effort. Alcoholism doesn't allow anyone to try and do their best. It only allows pain and suffering.
Tried what? Tried beating, tried intimidating, tried neglect, tried scaring, tried hating, tried gossiping, tried dividing, tried manipulating, tried terrorizing, tried what?
I don't recall any trying really. I recall never once having a parent show up at a school or church function. Never once having been comforted, nurtured, helped, encouraged. I didn't have clothes that weren't used and tattered, I didn't have shoes that fit, I didn't have medical attention more than once. There was no cuddling and reading a bedtime story. There was no walk in the park.
Their best was constant chaos, fighting, screaming, blood and bruises. Their best was constantly moving, no friends because they might find out how we live. Their best was no furniture, no pictures on the walls, no paint on the walls, no decor objects because it was thrown and broken and belittled if held dear. Their best was drinking, being gone and totally not involved in their children's lives. And their best was dividing all my siblings one against that stands today.
They actually didn't try, and it was no ones best effort. Alcoholism doesn't allow anyone to try and do their best. It only allows pain and suffering.
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Wonderful thread, here's my .02 worth.
One of my "root causes" that infuses all of my ACoA symptoms is something my sponsor calls "Dictionary-itis". My understanding of important concepts is based on what I learned as a child, not on what the rest of the world believes. What I do to address that is take a sentence that I have identified as trouble-some and look up the words in a dictionary. My sponsor suggest reading the sentence backwards, as that helps remove the emotional context.
Most of the time I discover that my own , toxic-childhood based, definitions of words are _way off_.
"My parents did the best they could."
This sentence, as others have said, brings up all kinds of emotions in me. My gut reflex is "no way", at least not _my_ parents. I don't know about anybody else's parents, I've met a lot of peeps who believe that sentence is true for them.
Taking the phrases one at a time, and backwards.
1- "the best they could":
My definition: To behave in an exemplary manner against insurmountable constraints. To execute heroic actions.
Dictionary definition: Used to indicate possibility.
My healing: These two definitions are worlds apart. Knowing that one of my "ACoA roles" is that of the "hero" I can see where my definition is biased towards impossible expectations. I understand now that this phrase means what a person might have done had they actually done _anything_.
2- "did the best they could":
My healing: It is this little word "did" that trips me up. That is past tense of the verb "do", which implies that an action occurred in the past. However, the word "did" does not apply to my parents because they did _not_ take actions on my behalf as a child. Since the word does not belong, I replace it with a word that does.
"My parents could have done the best they could."
My healing: Well sure they could have. As others have stated, they could have but they did not.
This brings up the question of whether it is possible for a couple of drunks to behave in any other way than inebriated. My personal opinion is that the question is irrelevant. What they _could_ have done has no impact on reality, it is clearly hypothetical. The only actions that affect reality is actions that happened.
Taking all of that together, by working it all through a fourth step, I discovered that the sentence "My parents did the best they could" is just a fantasy. It's no more rational than saying "Cinderella could have stayed past midnight". Another one of my ACoA "defects" is that I tend to fantasize of a perfect childhood, or at least not as toxic as it was. Which explains why this sentence, and the concepts behind it, have such a strong emotional "hook" for me.
For me, rolling this sentence around in my mind is like pulling the pin on a hand grenade and _not_ throwing it.
My healing: It does not matter what my parents _could_ have done. Whether they were drunk or even if I had perfect parents, what "could" have happened is pure fantasy. In order to heal from my ACA "stuff" I have to focus on reality, on what _actually_ happened. When I do that, ground myself in the truth instead of my own fantasies, the emotional power of the sentence disappears, and that deep ache that is left behind by unfinished grief is greatly reduced.
Mike
One of my "root causes" that infuses all of my ACoA symptoms is something my sponsor calls "Dictionary-itis". My understanding of important concepts is based on what I learned as a child, not on what the rest of the world believes. What I do to address that is take a sentence that I have identified as trouble-some and look up the words in a dictionary. My sponsor suggest reading the sentence backwards, as that helps remove the emotional context.
Most of the time I discover that my own , toxic-childhood based, definitions of words are _way off_.
"My parents did the best they could."
This sentence, as others have said, brings up all kinds of emotions in me. My gut reflex is "no way", at least not _my_ parents. I don't know about anybody else's parents, I've met a lot of peeps who believe that sentence is true for them.
Taking the phrases one at a time, and backwards.
1- "the best they could":
My definition: To behave in an exemplary manner against insurmountable constraints. To execute heroic actions.
Dictionary definition: Used to indicate possibility.
My healing: These two definitions are worlds apart. Knowing that one of my "ACoA roles" is that of the "hero" I can see where my definition is biased towards impossible expectations. I understand now that this phrase means what a person might have done had they actually done _anything_.
2- "did the best they could":
My healing: It is this little word "did" that trips me up. That is past tense of the verb "do", which implies that an action occurred in the past. However, the word "did" does not apply to my parents because they did _not_ take actions on my behalf as a child. Since the word does not belong, I replace it with a word that does.
"My parents could have done the best they could."
My healing: Well sure they could have. As others have stated, they could have but they did not.
This brings up the question of whether it is possible for a couple of drunks to behave in any other way than inebriated. My personal opinion is that the question is irrelevant. What they _could_ have done has no impact on reality, it is clearly hypothetical. The only actions that affect reality is actions that happened.
Taking all of that together, by working it all through a fourth step, I discovered that the sentence "My parents did the best they could" is just a fantasy. It's no more rational than saying "Cinderella could have stayed past midnight". Another one of my ACoA "defects" is that I tend to fantasize of a perfect childhood, or at least not as toxic as it was. Which explains why this sentence, and the concepts behind it, have such a strong emotional "hook" for me.
For me, rolling this sentence around in my mind is like pulling the pin on a hand grenade and _not_ throwing it.
My healing: It does not matter what my parents _could_ have done. Whether they were drunk or even if I had perfect parents, what "could" have happened is pure fantasy. In order to heal from my ACA "stuff" I have to focus on reality, on what _actually_ happened. When I do that, ground myself in the truth instead of my own fantasies, the emotional power of the sentence disappears, and that deep ache that is left behind by unfinished grief is greatly reduced.
Mike
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I could see how the "they did the best they could" would get under someone's skin.
I'm going to follow-up/piggyback from what DesertEyes has written.
The "best" part is where things could get misleading. What does it mean to "do your best". It means give it your all. Give it everything you got.
The sad, frustrating thing, is that giving it all they got didn't amount to much at all.
I suppose it compares to "let's find the smartest thing", or "let's find the cleanest thing" - it REALLY matters what the pool to collect from is. Meaning - if I select the smartest possible scientist, then I'm going to get someone pretty smart. However, if I select the smartest squirrel, then the "smartness" isn't comparable. Find the cleanest men's room amongst busy dive bars and you find something very different than the cleanest men's room in ritzy 5-star restaurants.
Thus, if we select the best a person can give, we are, in fact, select from what is available to them. If they have nothing but a series of squirrels or diver-bar bathrooms, the absolute awesomest bestest greatest thing you can come up with amounts to STILL a squirrel or a dive-bar men's bathroom.
THAT is how I feel about some people in my life. THey have SO LITTLE to give that their utmost best amounts to not much at all.
I suppose the difference is between the EFFORT and the RESULT. The EFFORT might be stellar. BUT, because of the small dried up set of muster to collect from, the RESULT has much to be deserved. An extremely unhealthy person has very little love, affection, kindness, and respect to find. Like an empty room with a small nugget of it - a speck's worth. Maybe we did get the speck? but ultimately, we cannot live off of a speck of respect, love, kindness, etc. I have had to get my needs met elsewhere. Thanks so much for trying, but sorry - I NEED much much more. And deserve much much more.
Hopefully, I can provide much much more for my children someday. IN order to do so, my "best" needs to be collected from a MUCH LARGER store of love, kindness, affection, respect. I need to be BRIMMING over with it that it takes no effort whatsoever to give it away. In order to do that, I think I need to work on filling my stores with it. Working my program. Reading on SR. Being around other people who provide lots of it. That's how I'm filling my "cup" up.
My .02 on the topic. Fill up your cup! Try not to expect much other than air and dust from a person with an empty cup themselves. (I want some love! "umm...my cup has run dry")
I'm going to follow-up/piggyback from what DesertEyes has written.
The "best" part is where things could get misleading. What does it mean to "do your best". It means give it your all. Give it everything you got.
The sad, frustrating thing, is that giving it all they got didn't amount to much at all.
I suppose it compares to "let's find the smartest thing", or "let's find the cleanest thing" - it REALLY matters what the pool to collect from is. Meaning - if I select the smartest possible scientist, then I'm going to get someone pretty smart. However, if I select the smartest squirrel, then the "smartness" isn't comparable. Find the cleanest men's room amongst busy dive bars and you find something very different than the cleanest men's room in ritzy 5-star restaurants.
Thus, if we select the best a person can give, we are, in fact, select from what is available to them. If they have nothing but a series of squirrels or diver-bar bathrooms, the absolute awesomest bestest greatest thing you can come up with amounts to STILL a squirrel or a dive-bar men's bathroom.
THAT is how I feel about some people in my life. THey have SO LITTLE to give that their utmost best amounts to not much at all.
I suppose the difference is between the EFFORT and the RESULT. The EFFORT might be stellar. BUT, because of the small dried up set of muster to collect from, the RESULT has much to be deserved. An extremely unhealthy person has very little love, affection, kindness, and respect to find. Like an empty room with a small nugget of it - a speck's worth. Maybe we did get the speck? but ultimately, we cannot live off of a speck of respect, love, kindness, etc. I have had to get my needs met elsewhere. Thanks so much for trying, but sorry - I NEED much much more. And deserve much much more.
Hopefully, I can provide much much more for my children someday. IN order to do so, my "best" needs to be collected from a MUCH LARGER store of love, kindness, affection, respect. I need to be BRIMMING over with it that it takes no effort whatsoever to give it away. In order to do that, I think I need to work on filling my stores with it. Working my program. Reading on SR. Being around other people who provide lots of it. That's how I'm filling my "cup" up.
My .02 on the topic. Fill up your cup! Try not to expect much other than air and dust from a person with an empty cup themselves. (I want some love! "umm...my cup has run dry")
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Originally Posted by thotful
... THey have SO LITTLE to give that their utmost best amounts to not much at all. ...
Mike
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Kialua, amazing how having such different upbringing still yield similar results. My sister and I were dolls that AM dressed up and paraded around like cattle. Status symbols of the future generation that would "marry up" because that's how she was training us. Ha. She had little to do with our actual raising.
And AM had Munchausen by Proxy. It wasn't overt, which is why I didn't realize until recently exactly what was going on. She would be so nasty if I was sick because no one could be sick in our house but her, yet she would milk the sympathy from doctors, friends, and total strangers for all it was worth. Most kids got amoxicillin when they were sick. I got a room full of medical students watching while I got a shot of whatever in my ass. Every time. There was no reason I couldn't get the pink stuff, mom just insisted I pull my pants down in front of total strangers every few weeks, because I was always sick. She wouldn't let them take my tonsils out until I was 17 (it had been recommended since I was four), because at that point I was going to college and wouldn't be of any use to her. And then I left school winter of my junior year with Crohns Disease, and it all started again. I wasn't allowed to be sick, but she had to be able to play it off for the masses to be the poor caretaker mother. Yep, that was fun.
We took vacations to Disney World twice a year. Most miserable #$&@?/! place on earth for me. People always look at my life from the outside and think I had it so great. I would've traded every damn trip to Orlando for a mother who gave a damn about me.
And AM had Munchausen by Proxy. It wasn't overt, which is why I didn't realize until recently exactly what was going on. She would be so nasty if I was sick because no one could be sick in our house but her, yet she would milk the sympathy from doctors, friends, and total strangers for all it was worth. Most kids got amoxicillin when they were sick. I got a room full of medical students watching while I got a shot of whatever in my ass. Every time. There was no reason I couldn't get the pink stuff, mom just insisted I pull my pants down in front of total strangers every few weeks, because I was always sick. She wouldn't let them take my tonsils out until I was 17 (it had been recommended since I was four), because at that point I was going to college and wouldn't be of any use to her. And then I left school winter of my junior year with Crohns Disease, and it all started again. I wasn't allowed to be sick, but she had to be able to play it off for the masses to be the poor caretaker mother. Yep, that was fun.
We took vacations to Disney World twice a year. Most miserable #$&@?/! place on earth for me. People always look at my life from the outside and think I had it so great. I would've traded every damn trip to Orlando for a mother who gave a damn about me.
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