Wholesome

I have found an agnostic AA meeting in my neighbourhood that I'm thinking of attending. Has anyone been to one? Do they read from the same BB?

I was not originally going to go the AA route but I find myself doing some of the steps regardless. Taking an inventory and wanting to make amends. Also I want to be around other sober people in the flesh.... I'm starting to feel lonely with most of my social circle being drinkers.

Coldfusion

Meetings are different from one group to another, so I can't say what the format will be. But Toronto is famous for its agnostic AA meetings--let us know how it goes!

freshstart57

There is a storied history of secular 12 steps in Toronto. Two secular groups found out that a belief in 'God' is also required, not just a desire to quit drinking, if they wished to be part of AA.
Does religion belong at AA? Fight over 'God' splits Toronto AA groups | Toronto Star

Wholesome

Wow! I'm shocked that a program that boasts the only thing you need to be a member is a desire to quit drinking would kick the secular's out of their club. Seems like a lot of narrow thinking.

Wholesome

They need to add a desire to quit drinking and a desire to find God.

Fly N Buy

No one said they couldn't be in AA. But, when a group decides to re-write the steps then it is not AA. It can be anything else they desire, but AA's premise of working the 12 steps is to cure the spiritual malady and create a spiritual awakening. This is suggested only as are all things in AA.

However, I think it's narrow minded for others to believe they can rewrite the steps and expect to still be considered AA.

I suppose Zen it would be like you and I deciding we liked SR in some regards and decided to change it. There are rules of order here, frankly a lot more than in AA! What if we believed AVRT worked for us, but wanted to tweak it stating - I may never drink again. This would be fine for us, but is it still AVRT???

And yes, the only desire for membership is a desire to stop drinking - all are welcome. The rest is only suggested in terms of How We Recovered.

A God of my understanding is pretty broad based. However a principal of AA is getting outside of trying to solve the problem of drinking on our own = self will run riot. Turning our problems over to a God of our understanding is foundation - whatever that God means to you . Many define their higher power as the fellowship/group itself. It's up to you!

Anyone is free to not follow AA suggestions, but don't set up shop as AA and attempt to re write the literature - Seems like narrow thinking to me.......

peace

Wholesome

Well that answers my original question. The secular groups are forced to keep the literature with all the God references. God curing me of drinking too much is never going to work for me and I do believe in some kind of higher power but I find it more in nature and the mysteries of the universe. I don't think it has a thing to do with my alcoholism. But different strokes for different folks.

Fluffer

Zen,

You might want to look into Secular Organization for Sobriety, Women for Sobriety, SMART recovery, and Lifering. Sorry I don't know which ones have chapters in Toronto.

Wholesome

Nah. I'm not going to do the meeting thing this time around. I looked up the secular meeting because I was feeling a bit lonely that day. When it came time to go I changed my mind. AVRT and SR has been enough for me so far. If that changes I will reassess. What I need to do is focus on new activities and interests in my sober life. Which I am slowly doing, I've made a bunch of positive changes. But thank you for the suggestions.

awuh1

I want to be helpful more than I want to be right today (but just barely) so I wont say much. BUT I'll bet you 10 to 1 that if you go to an agnostic meeting that you will like it, AND you will shortly go to another one. If that is incorrect I will mea culpa all over the place and at your specifications X10. Deal?

NoelleR

Although there are no 'rules' in AA, there's a LOT of politics. I did some research into Toronto's agnostic meetings, and AAAgnostica in particular, and I found that even though their meetings may not be listed with the local AA Intergroup, and they may not be considered 'AA' by the local AA Intergroup, they are considered 'AA' by AA (New York).........go figure, showstagoya.

There are lots of folks in AA with lots of differing opinions, and just because the majority says something is right (or wrong), it could just be that all the fools are on the same side.

(o:
NoelleR

Fly N Buy

I was curious about this and found this interesting from Toronto Agnostics website AA Agnostic 12 Steps - AA Toronto Agnostics

Disclaimer from their site;
AA World Services and GTA Toronto Intergroup neither endorses nor oppose such an interpretation. To ensure there is no confusion, this interpretation of the Twelve Steps of AA IS NOT A.A. Conference Approved literature. A.A. World Service has neither reviewed nor approved this content and does not necessarily agree with the views expressed herein.


Here's what is interesting to me are really the common thread for all of us who cherish AA regardless of ones view of God. This is step 12 as listed from the above website and their re writing of some steps;

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

For me this is critical and great to read. Agnostic, atheist or belief in a traditional HP - there is agreement about a spiritual awakening.

MesaMan

Zenchaser has outlined his intent in Post #9.

I, for one, would appreciate observing Secular Guidelines here.

Thank you.

fini

zenchaser,
secular 'guys' aren't kicked out.
a group or meeting which changes the steps is not considered AA. whether they change th3e steps to a secular, or Wiccan, or Jewish version.
it's not about the people in the meeting or about their beliefs.

i happen to go to a regular AA meeting. no changed steps, no changed literature.
of about 15 regularly-attending members, my best guess is that 14 are agnostic or atheist or anything other than theist.

it is definitely not an agnostic AA meeting.

it is fantastic to hear about how all these people can "do" the program with powers greater than themselves of their own understanding, which some of them have come to call god.

we have "religious" people doing secular "programs" (Lifering is an example) , just as "secular" and non-theist people can work the 12-step program with original steps or altered ones.

that altering the original wording makes a meeting unaccepted as an AA meeting by AA is a separate issue.

NoelleR

Just as an FYI for any who may not know this, 'AA Conference Approved literature' does NOT mean AA approves and/or disapproves any literature; it ONLY means that AAWS printed/published the particular literature. Just because something is not AA Conference Approved, it also does NOT mean that AA does not agree with the views expressed.

Again, AA Conference Approved only means that AAWS printed the literature. There is obviously lots of good literature that AAWS cannot print because the copyright may belong to another publishing company.

(o:
NoelleR

P.S. Here's a link to AA's official website where it discusses 'Conference Approved Literature.......................:

http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-29_en.pdf

P.P.S. "...a group or meeting which changes the steps is not considered AA..." Actually, I spoke with AA (NY office) and they said that if a group calls itself an AA group, then they are....and they specifically included AAAgnostica in this (they consider all this 'are they AA?'/'are they not AA?' to be an outside issue.

Boleo

Oddly enough, the first and second edition of the Big Book is not AA conference approved because AAWS no longer prints it.

NoelleR

Huh....? 'Conference Approved Literature' does NOT mean AAWS is still printing said literature, only that it did print it. They're no longer printing the 3rd edition of the BB; does that men that it's no longer 'Conference Approved'......................? So, I own a 3rd edition that WAS 'Conference Approved' BUT is no longer 'Conference Approved'................? C'mon........

(o:
NoelleR

Gal220

As in anything, you will always find people who disagree with you or try to push their beliefs on you. But that doesn't have to stop you from some face to face camaraderie if that will help you or make you feel like you're not alone in the struggle. I know people whose "higher power" is the universe. The steps aren't about God curing my drinking. They're really just about admitting that I'm doing something that's harming me, which is crazy, and that I am not the center of the universe: that I can't control everything (that whether there is a god or not, it's definitely not me). The steps really just got me out of myself. I learned to look at my faults, to question my motives, to ask for help, to be willing to admit when I'm wrong, to change to become a better person, and to help others. If I do these things, I just might learn to love myself enough to stay sober and be happy.

Boleo

I digress. I should have stated... The first and second editions of the Big Book are not conference approved because AAWS no longer holds patents on them and several other companies can now print and sell the basic text with no royalties going to AA. That's why SR asks us to display a disclaimer when when we quote from the Big Book.

Third edition is conference approved because AAWS still holds the patent on it.

Wholesome

Gal220, there are some thing about AA that make sense to me regardless of how I feel about the higher power aspect. I think assessing where the addiction has left me and and taking some thought and action as to how to change going forward is a good thing. I also think doing some damage control and mending relationships would be healing and beneficial. Being of service to others, and yes the camaraderie. I just really think that if I quit drinking it's because I took my power back not a higher power but my own. I may end up at that meeting one night... it is walkable from my house and secular. I will probably know some people there! I did work at the local beer store for years. haha