Interesting Article on Co-Dependency
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,218
Interesting Article on Co-Dependency
Was searching online for something marriage related, and stumbled upon this article. The title intrigued me, and made me think of all of the discussion about CD here, so I read it. Thought it might inspire an interesting discussion on here. Enjoy.
HOW THE CO-DEPENDENCY MOVEMENT IS RUINING MARRIAGES
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/grap...i8110_cod.html
Excerpt:
" Those of us in the business of trying to save marriages struggle daily with cultural beliefs and practices that make our job difficult. The sudden surge of divorces in the 1970's,that has made America the country with the highest divorce rate,has a great deal to do with changes in our basic beliefs. More to the point,it has to do with a major shift toward self-centeredness. Beliefs that encourage self-centeredness destroy marriage.
One of these is the belief that co-dependent behavior is self-defeating and that we should rid ourselves of it. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing and a marriage wrecker. I'll try to explain why I feel so strongly about this issue...."
HOW THE CO-DEPENDENCY MOVEMENT IS RUINING MARRIAGES
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/grap...i8110_cod.html
Excerpt:
" Those of us in the business of trying to save marriages struggle daily with cultural beliefs and practices that make our job difficult. The sudden surge of divorces in the 1970's,that has made America the country with the highest divorce rate,has a great deal to do with changes in our basic beliefs. More to the point,it has to do with a major shift toward self-centeredness. Beliefs that encourage self-centeredness destroy marriage.
One of these is the belief that co-dependent behavior is self-defeating and that we should rid ourselves of it. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing and a marriage wrecker. I'll try to explain why I feel so strongly about this issue...."
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: The planet Earth, or at least that's what I've been told.
Posts: 130
Co-dependency is really one of those terms that is used so often and has so many different meanings to people - that it has become "psychobabble".
I know what it means to me, but whenever I hear someone calling themselves "codie", I'm not really sure what they are referring to.
In general I think to have a healthy relationship, you have to have dependency. There needs to be nurturing, caring, mutual giving, boundaries and affection. If one partner only focuses on the self, and refuses to get involved in anything the other is doing, I'm not sure how practically this setup could work out. But on the other hand, there needs to be a degree of detachment and individuality - so that neither partner feels smothered or lost and both retain the ability to care for themselves.
I know what it means to me, but whenever I hear someone calling themselves "codie", I'm not really sure what they are referring to.
In general I think to have a healthy relationship, you have to have dependency. There needs to be nurturing, caring, mutual giving, boundaries and affection. If one partner only focuses on the self, and refuses to get involved in anything the other is doing, I'm not sure how practically this setup could work out. But on the other hand, there needs to be a degree of detachment and individuality - so that neither partner feels smothered or lost and both retain the ability to care for themselves.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
neither my wife nor I have any chemical dependency issues, either. We are in love with each other, and have a great marriage.
I think he's wrong. I think codependency is always detrimental to a person. The thing is, being unselfish and nice and courteous and caring doesn't turn into codependency in a healthy relationship. Those aren't bad qualities -- until you run across a user... As some of us know, a person doesn't have to be an addict for an unhealthy relationship to be created.
But then again, I probably shouldn't comment on an article written by a person who is "in the business of trying to save marriages" because I don't see that as a worthy cause in itself. I simply disagree with his fundamental belief.
Some marriages shouldn't be saved. Some marriages should be dissolved, and quickly. But that's because I believe more in the right of an individual to lead a healthy life than I believe in "saving marriages" as some worthy overarching principle.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,218
It's interesting, and people define "codependent" differently, it seems. This definition talks about being negatively affected:
Codependency - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
A lot of people seem to define it, generally speaking, as basically doing things for others. Other people seem to take it further, adding something to the effect of doing something for another, but from an unhealthy place, and/or for someone who is using/abusing you.
I thought this would be really interesting to post, because I have noticed in postong here that the way individuals define codependency varies a lot, and for some people it means within.an.unhealthy relationship, for others, any relationship. Some people are fine calling themselves codependent, others are not.
I'm very interested to see how different people interpret this article, how it matches/goes against their definition/beliefs, etc.
*******
Lillamy - I've not read a whole lot of the author's material, and I don't know their views on saving marriages (as far as trying to save it regardless of severity of abusiveness etc). So I can't comment from that perspective. I will say I too feel like some marriages are just better off dissolving!
Codependency - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
A lot of people seem to define it, generally speaking, as basically doing things for others. Other people seem to take it further, adding something to the effect of doing something for another, but from an unhealthy place, and/or for someone who is using/abusing you.
I thought this would be really interesting to post, because I have noticed in postong here that the way individuals define codependency varies a lot, and for some people it means within.an.unhealthy relationship, for others, any relationship. Some people are fine calling themselves codependent, others are not.
I'm very interested to see how different people interpret this article, how it matches/goes against their definition/beliefs, etc.
*******
Lillamy - I've not read a whole lot of the author's material, and I don't know their views on saving marriages (as far as trying to save it regardless of severity of abusiveness etc). So I can't comment from that perspective. I will say I too feel like some marriages are just better off dissolving!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,913
I need to sit and figure out why this article has pushed buttons and got me generally a bit uncomfortable and a bit PO'd. I suspect this:
has a great deal to do with my desire to chuck his article. Because one of the things I discussed with a T and Pdoc was the 'generalized anxiety' I was suffering from dealing with AXH's abusive behavior. Pity AXH for my anxiety? That he helped generate? I think not. Additionally NONE of those were things that I was told to do, or did, to work through my anxiety. It feels like he, or maybe the Dr. Bourne he's quoting, has twisted information to suit his needs. However, we're not provided with the link to Dr. Bourne's article because it's 'no longer available.' A convenient site for Harley to base his article on and provide 'support' for his side of the argument.
I think there is a world of difference between co-dependency when used in books and sites along the lines of the "Co-Dependent No More" book and a healthier "inter-dependent" relationship - where both parties depend each on the other to support and nurture the relationship. Perhaps, the distinction I hear is only to my thinking, and it really is a matter of semantics. But I don't think so.
I also find it worrisome that Mr. Harley lightly classifies his and his wife, "Joyce's", behavior when expressing anger as abusive.
Pity the poor person who has an anxiety disorder. Or more to the point, pity that person's spouse. The solution to "chronic, generalized anxiety" is to
1. not do what others's expect,
2. be as irritable and unpleasant as you wish,
3. make people angry with you,
4. don't try to make the people you love happy,
5. don't blame yourself when someone you care for is upset with you,
6. gain self-esteem from what you do for yourself, rather than what you do for others,
7. don't ever care about others so much that you overextend yourself,
8. maintain your values and needs even if it means ruining your marriage,
9. take from others whenever you can, and
10. don't let someone else's anger deter you from your objectives.
1. not do what others's expect,
2. be as irritable and unpleasant as you wish,
3. make people angry with you,
4. don't try to make the people you love happy,
5. don't blame yourself when someone you care for is upset with you,
6. gain self-esteem from what you do for yourself, rather than what you do for others,
7. don't ever care about others so much that you overextend yourself,
8. maintain your values and needs even if it means ruining your marriage,
9. take from others whenever you can, and
10. don't let someone else's anger deter you from your objectives.
I think there is a world of difference between co-dependency when used in books and sites along the lines of the "Co-Dependent No More" book and a healthier "inter-dependent" relationship - where both parties depend each on the other to support and nurture the relationship. Perhaps, the distinction I hear is only to my thinking, and it really is a matter of semantics. But I don't think so.
I also find it worrisome that Mr. Harley lightly classifies his and his wife, "Joyce's", behavior when expressing anger as abusive.
Bunnies!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
I define codependency as doing for others what they can do for themselves in a need to control those people and all parts of the relationship. Being a kind, caring person is great. It's when you start telling people how to live or do things because you think that's best for them regardless of the circumstances, that you cross into codie land. There is a healthy level of dependence in good relationships, but I would more call that mutual respect and individual dignity for the partners rather than "dependence". Or maybe I'm just talking out of my ass while waiting for my sleepy meds to kick in. The author just seems like a bit of a jerk, and I can't stand to hear that "business of saving marriages" bull. I see so many people here who are more focused on saving their marriage than anything else. They'll overlook physical and emotional abuse, trauma caused to their children, and everything else that is ruining them down to their very core just to save a stupid piece of paper. And this idiot is one of those people pushing that incredibly unhealthy agenda.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: The planet Earth, or at least that's what I've been told.
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by NWGRITS 
I define codependency as doing for others what they can do for themselves in a need to control those people and all parts of the relationship. Being a kind, caring person is great. It's when you start telling people how to live or do things because you think that's best for them regardless of the circumstances, that you cross into codie land. There is a healthy level of dependence in good relationships, but I would more call that mutual respect and individual dignity for the partners rather than "dependence". Or maybe I'm just talking out of my ass while waiting for my sleepy meds to kick in. The author just seems like a bit of a jerk, and I can't stand to hear that "business of saving marriages" bull. I see so many people here who are more focused on saving their marriage than anything else. They'll overlook physical and emotional abuse, trauma caused to their children, and everything else that is ruining them down to their very core just to save a stupid piece of paper. And this idiot is one of those people pushing that incredibly unhealthy agenda.
However, I think dependence is the right word. In Western culture we are fiercely independent and value our individuality. Because of that the word "dependence" has a stigma attached to it and is almost always used in a negative context. But I think we are missing the bigger picture when we under value dependence. Dependence to me is about trust and partnership. It's about loving and trusting someone so much that your life becomes intertwined with theirs.
I have been emotionally independent ever since I was a child out of necessity, so it is VERY difficult for me to form attachments to others and to depend on them. To be frank, I have an attachment disorder. More than anyone I understand how important dependence is, and how disabling it can be to a relationship when you can't allow it into your life. It is my goal to overcome this, and to eventually get to a place where dependence feels warm and comforting to me instead of threatening.
So yes, dependence can be a GOOD thing.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
Prior to the 70s, women didn't have the kind of career options that would have allowed them to leave bad marriages. Neither do a lot of women in the rest of the world. I don't think our divorce rate has anything to do with the "codependency movement," unless that's code for believing women should have options other than relying on an unreliable or abusive guy for the means to live.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
Reading through the article, this guy doesn't understand or choose to understand the definition of co-dependency as it's commonly used. He's rejecting its use to describe anything outside of an alcoholic marriage.
For me, the hinge is clear, in the quote he used defining codependency:
You are managing other people's problems at the expense of your own, and it causes the despair and anxiety that he mocked so easily in the article. It's not about being unpleasant or unselfish -- co-dependency is about taking care of your immediate care and safety regardless of what your partner is doing.
My parents didn't have an alcoholic marriage, they had a mentally ill marriage. They just "celebrated" their 52nd wedding anniversary, although everyone around them, including them, think they should have divorced sometime in the last three decades.
Mother Theresa wasn't co-dependent, she was a nun. Martyrdom is something we're aspiring to be less like, and for good reason for most of us.
For me, the hinge is clear, in the quote he used defining codependency:
Co-dependency can be defined as the tendency to put others needs before your own. You accommodate to others to such a degree that you tend to discount or ignore your own feelings, desires and basic needs. Your self-esteem depends largely on how well you please, take care of and/or solve problems for someone else (or many others)."
My parents didn't have an alcoholic marriage, they had a mentally ill marriage. They just "celebrated" their 52nd wedding anniversary, although everyone around them, including them, think they should have divorced sometime in the last three decades.
Mother Theresa wasn't co-dependent, she was a nun. Martyrdom is something we're aspiring to be less like, and for good reason for most of us.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: northern AZ
Posts: 796
Its a balancing act. Healthy relationships constantly jockey back and forth. I consider that to be healthy inter-dependence. Years ago, when I first ran into someone talking about their co-dependence and how "sick" it was, I was in shock frankly and came away thinking their views on what was "right" or "healthy" were "sick." I know that sounds harsh but that's, truly, what I thought. Because of this, I researched the subject and considered what I read a muddled mess. I agree with NWGRITS.
I think its often lost in today's psychobabble that co-dependence originally was only operative concerning an addiction. Where it veered off into spinning simple caring or nurturing into an unhealthy act, I don't know. My husband has a medical condition. There's no addiction involved. You better believe I monitor and help him.. and, yes, even control his behavior if it could harm him. In fact, family members are counseled and educated to monitor even with a diabetic whose sugar may be out of control and they get brain fog and that's only ONE of his conditions. We BOTH need watch each other and we BOTH need that. Does he, sometimes, snap at me because he remembered it himself. Of course he does. No one likes to feel the issues of aging, memory problems, illness, etc but the issues aren't addiction and co-dependence (to a substance.) I think of it this way... what if I said to him... honey, you're on your own... not my problem? What on earth is the point of marriage if your spouse isn't going to be there for you? I have no doubt that, initially, my fear levels with the possibility of him dying may have been somewhat, as defined by psychobabble, co-dependent. That's what its about... fear. If I'm staying in serenity and I mean by the prayer, then my internal state and consequent actions are not co-dependent... fear based... they're loving and consistent with the reason I married the guy in the first place... "for better or worse".. that's the vow I took. And the "worse" can be made "better" when we each support and help the other when needed.
Sorry if I offended anyone with what I've said but I really, really, get annoyed when healthy, loving, inter-dependence gets twisted into something "unhealthy." I'm sure I got pretty incoherent as I'm not one to handle emotions very well... lol my MB type. I read the OP about the link contents but haven't actually gone to the article. Off to do that now.
I think its often lost in today's psychobabble that co-dependence originally was only operative concerning an addiction. Where it veered off into spinning simple caring or nurturing into an unhealthy act, I don't know. My husband has a medical condition. There's no addiction involved. You better believe I monitor and help him.. and, yes, even control his behavior if it could harm him. In fact, family members are counseled and educated to monitor even with a diabetic whose sugar may be out of control and they get brain fog and that's only ONE of his conditions. We BOTH need watch each other and we BOTH need that. Does he, sometimes, snap at me because he remembered it himself. Of course he does. No one likes to feel the issues of aging, memory problems, illness, etc but the issues aren't addiction and co-dependence (to a substance.) I think of it this way... what if I said to him... honey, you're on your own... not my problem? What on earth is the point of marriage if your spouse isn't going to be there for you? I have no doubt that, initially, my fear levels with the possibility of him dying may have been somewhat, as defined by psychobabble, co-dependent. That's what its about... fear. If I'm staying in serenity and I mean by the prayer, then my internal state and consequent actions are not co-dependent... fear based... they're loving and consistent with the reason I married the guy in the first place... "for better or worse".. that's the vow I took. And the "worse" can be made "better" when we each support and help the other when needed.
Sorry if I offended anyone with what I've said but I really, really, get annoyed when healthy, loving, inter-dependence gets twisted into something "unhealthy." I'm sure I got pretty incoherent as I'm not one to handle emotions very well... lol my MB type. I read the OP about the link contents but haven't actually gone to the article. Off to do that now.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: northern AZ
Posts: 796
Past the editing time so:
No surprise, after reading, I agree with this summation it took me way longer to say less eloquently: (MY bold and underlines)
"The care and consideration of our spouse does not leave us emotionally disabled -- unless our spouse turns out to be an addict. When it comes to addiction in marriage, my advice is to run for cover! But in marriages that do not suffer from addiction, care and consideration is not the problem, but rather the solution to problems. "
Applying "co-dependency" to a relationship where no addiction is present can be a just plain old copout and excuse for not being willing to do the work and lovingly sacrifice, without resentments, in ways a healthy relationship requires... and, I might add... lovingly accept the help and support of a spouse as some fear feeling or appearing weak. Its all about motivation... if its fear-based its going to do harm to both parties. If its coming from love well, no way I'm going to see that as "sick" or "unhealthy" and I've, personally, never seen a relationship fail that way.
No surprise, after reading, I agree with this summation it took me way longer to say less eloquently: (MY bold and underlines)
"The care and consideration of our spouse does not leave us emotionally disabled -- unless our spouse turns out to be an addict. When it comes to addiction in marriage, my advice is to run for cover! But in marriages that do not suffer from addiction, care and consideration is not the problem, but rather the solution to problems. "
Applying "co-dependency" to a relationship where no addiction is present can be a just plain old copout and excuse for not being willing to do the work and lovingly sacrifice, without resentments, in ways a healthy relationship requires... and, I might add... lovingly accept the help and support of a spouse as some fear feeling or appearing weak. Its all about motivation... if its fear-based its going to do harm to both parties. If its coming from love well, no way I'm going to see that as "sick" or "unhealthy" and I've, personally, never seen a relationship fail that way.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: The planet Earth, or at least that's what I've been told.
Posts: 130
Originally Posted by Turtle82
And the "worse" can be made "better" when we each support and help the other when needed.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
in marriages that do not suffer from addiction, care and consideration is not the problem, but rather the solution to problems. "
But by limiting it to addiction, he basically says "anything else, you're a selfish bastard if you leave your marriage over."
Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by lillamy
I think he's wrong. I think codependency is always detrimental to a person. The thing is, being unselfish and nice and courteous and caring doesn't turn into codependency in a healthy relationship. Those aren't bad qualities -- until you run across a user... As some of us know, a person doesn't have to be an addict for an unhealthy relationship to be created...
Some marriages shouldn't be saved. Some marriages should be dissolved, and quickly. But that's because I believe more in the right of an individual to lead a healthy life than I believe in "saving marriages" as some worthy overarching principle.
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Far above my co-dependent rock bottom.
Posts: 50
I used to think of myself as oh-so-kind and caring.
In fact these qualities were drowned in my codependent, enmeshed way of relating to others, and they did not really shine through because I was not happy.
I was always codependent, though my marriage to an addict finally made me realize it. (Where I come from, the word codependent does not exist.)
Nowadays I am a happier person, and all my good qualities, such as they are, can be fully expressed.
In fact these qualities were drowned in my codependent, enmeshed way of relating to others, and they did not really shine through because I was not happy.
I was always codependent, though my marriage to an addict finally made me realize it. (Where I come from, the word codependent does not exist.)
Nowadays I am a happier person, and all my good qualities, such as they are, can be fully expressed.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Sonoran Desert & Southeast Asia
Posts: 6,561
Originally Posted by POAndrea
Started to read the article, then scanned the titles of the other articles on the site, saw "How to Deal with a Quarrelsome and Nagging Wife", and decided I'd rather not finish.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
