Question about boundaries
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Question about boundaries
While I'm still preparing for divorce and gathering my strength I find myself in a difficult situation
Ok....so sister and AH have big problems. They hate each other. Ok, I got that. I WILL agree that my sister CAN be toxic. She is a binge drinker who gets really belligerent when she is drunk and NO ONE wants to be around her. She does not do this around us anymore.
There was an incident two years ago at my daughters birthday party. My sister drove down for it. She got plastered and called my AH a whole bunch of nasty nasty names and threatening to kick his ass and all that. (this was before AH went back to drinking)
I told sister that she was not welcome in my house drunk and that she could NOT treat AH that way and if she continued to do that then I would need to not have her really active in my life. She has NOT slipped up since then. She did apologize to AH, but he said she did it when she was drinking and therefore the apology is null and void.
So AH has this boundary now- told me this two days ago. My sister is not allowed at his house, around him, or around the kids.
He WILL NOT budge on this- says he.
He claims he is doing this because she is toxic and dangerous.
He also claims he has spoke with his counselor and that counselor has given his blessing on this boundary.
Is is normal to make boundaries like that? Boundaries that include the kids who have NOTHING BUT love for their aunt? I told him I veto that boundary - not for him, but for the kids. I feel this is personal for him and really has nothing to do about safety for the kids at all, but rather just pure retaliation.
He does legitimately have a good reason not to like my sister. My sister has some real issues. But we haven't had problems in two years with her being drunk. Is this ok? I told him I will NOT deliver on an ultimatum. Because he admitted in the end that it was either my sister or him.
What do I do about that boundary? I hate them both for doing this crap.....they both are soooo childish.
Ok....so sister and AH have big problems. They hate each other. Ok, I got that. I WILL agree that my sister CAN be toxic. She is a binge drinker who gets really belligerent when she is drunk and NO ONE wants to be around her. She does not do this around us anymore.
There was an incident two years ago at my daughters birthday party. My sister drove down for it. She got plastered and called my AH a whole bunch of nasty nasty names and threatening to kick his ass and all that. (this was before AH went back to drinking)
I told sister that she was not welcome in my house drunk and that she could NOT treat AH that way and if she continued to do that then I would need to not have her really active in my life. She has NOT slipped up since then. She did apologize to AH, but he said she did it when she was drinking and therefore the apology is null and void.
So AH has this boundary now- told me this two days ago. My sister is not allowed at his house, around him, or around the kids.
He WILL NOT budge on this- says he.
He claims he is doing this because she is toxic and dangerous.
He also claims he has spoke with his counselor and that counselor has given his blessing on this boundary.
Is is normal to make boundaries like that? Boundaries that include the kids who have NOTHING BUT love for their aunt? I told him I veto that boundary - not for him, but for the kids. I feel this is personal for him and really has nothing to do about safety for the kids at all, but rather just pure retaliation.
He does legitimately have a good reason not to like my sister. My sister has some real issues. But we haven't had problems in two years with her being drunk. Is this ok? I told him I will NOT deliver on an ultimatum. Because he admitted in the end that it was either my sister or him.
What do I do about that boundary? I hate them both for doing this crap.....they both are soooo childish.
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He can set boundaries for himself. If you do end up divorcing, he can say that he will not take the kids to see their aunt when they're with him.
He has no influence over what you do with the kids when you have them.
What he is trying to do is not "set boundaries" -- what he's trying to do is control you and the children.
And any time an addict says "my counselor said," I go look for this flag:
Sorry, had to come back and add one thing: Here's how divorce works: After it's over, you no longer get to tell the other person how to live their lives. And that includes the kids. Unless what the other parent is doing is illegal, you have zero say in what they do with the kids.
He has no influence over what you do with the kids when you have them.
What he is trying to do is not "set boundaries" -- what he's trying to do is control you and the children.
And any time an addict says "my counselor said," I go look for this flag:
Sorry, had to come back and add one thing: Here's how divorce works: After it's over, you no longer get to tell the other person how to live their lives. And that includes the kids. Unless what the other parent is doing is illegal, you have zero say in what they do with the kids.
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Freetosmile-
I was in a similar situation when I was dealing with my best friend and my new husband who I realized had a drinking problem in the begining of our marriage. There was an incident on our two week anniversary that sent them both to their individual corners.
What do YOU feel comfortable with? The reason I ask is that in my case both of them wanted me to "take" sides and I lost myself in the middle of all the drauma between them. In all honesty it was my relationship with them as an individual that suffered through all this, but especially my relationship with myself. I spent so much energy "trying" to make it okay for each of them that I did not have the ability to say to either of them to knock it off or "no" or this does not work for me.
In the end both relationships had to change significantly between myself and the individual. Their relationship between them was their own. I would have been better off staying out of it.
How do you take care of you in this?
I was in a similar situation when I was dealing with my best friend and my new husband who I realized had a drinking problem in the begining of our marriage. There was an incident on our two week anniversary that sent them both to their individual corners.
What do YOU feel comfortable with? The reason I ask is that in my case both of them wanted me to "take" sides and I lost myself in the middle of all the drauma between them. In all honesty it was my relationship with them as an individual that suffered through all this, but especially my relationship with myself. I spent so much energy "trying" to make it okay for each of them that I did not have the ability to say to either of them to knock it off or "no" or this does not work for me.
In the end both relationships had to change significantly between myself and the individual. Their relationship between them was their own. I would have been better off staying out of it.
How do you take care of you in this?
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Hi freetosmile, I have followed your recent posts and am sorry you are having such a hard time.
Re what you have said above it is just my opinion but I honestly think who is he to tell you that your sister cannot be involved as she is toxic and dangerous- should he maybe look a bit closer to home (eg himself first)?
Yes there may have been an occasion of conflict between them and as you state she may have her own issues to but if you have set a boundary with her that she has adhered to and she has never caused any damage to your children (which he seems to say is his concern) what exactly is the issue?
I could be wrong and again it is just my opinion and somewhat based on my own experience but it seems as if this is another control thing for him and typical of something that a person of abusive nature will say/do. Trying to cut you off from a close family member and to boot one that doesn't like him also.
If you said ok and deemed his request acceptable it could be and most likely would be the start of him not liking every tom dick and Harry (for use of better names) that come into your life in any way shape or form- and the reason for this- because he is a control freak and also wants everything to be about him and your sole focus of attention to be him.
Mine was the same- 1st he didn't like this person because of this reason, then this person, then the next and on and on it went trying to convince me even in some cases that people I had known my whole life were bad for me, didn't have my best intentions at heart etc etc when it was all BS and everything he said and wanted was for HIM and not to help me.
It seems your partner is trying to pretend that his concern for you or the kids is reasoning when actually it's all about his selfish feelings and what he wants.
A councillor give him blessing on this- I think this only likely be true if he told the councillor some **** and bull story about what a demon your sister is, and I think any councillor of alcohol addiction is fully aware of the impact it has on others so would maybe question why your partner felt he had the right to remove anyone who might be part of your support group?
Him or your sister- if they are both as childish as each other I would go with neither but obviously I know that it's not as easy as that and I don't mean to sound harsh or dismissive at all.
I really do however think that maybe he should be reminded he is in no position to be making such demands and laying ultimatums on you and maybe in his recovery he should be focusing more on HIS RECOVERY than trying to tell you what to do about your sister.
Best of luck to you and sending strength to you in whatever you decide to do x
Re what you have said above it is just my opinion but I honestly think who is he to tell you that your sister cannot be involved as she is toxic and dangerous- should he maybe look a bit closer to home (eg himself first)?
Yes there may have been an occasion of conflict between them and as you state she may have her own issues to but if you have set a boundary with her that she has adhered to and she has never caused any damage to your children (which he seems to say is his concern) what exactly is the issue?
I could be wrong and again it is just my opinion and somewhat based on my own experience but it seems as if this is another control thing for him and typical of something that a person of abusive nature will say/do. Trying to cut you off from a close family member and to boot one that doesn't like him also.
If you said ok and deemed his request acceptable it could be and most likely would be the start of him not liking every tom dick and Harry (for use of better names) that come into your life in any way shape or form- and the reason for this- because he is a control freak and also wants everything to be about him and your sole focus of attention to be him.
Mine was the same- 1st he didn't like this person because of this reason, then this person, then the next and on and on it went trying to convince me even in some cases that people I had known my whole life were bad for me, didn't have my best intentions at heart etc etc when it was all BS and everything he said and wanted was for HIM and not to help me.
It seems your partner is trying to pretend that his concern for you or the kids is reasoning when actually it's all about his selfish feelings and what he wants.
A councillor give him blessing on this- I think this only likely be true if he told the councillor some **** and bull story about what a demon your sister is, and I think any councillor of alcohol addiction is fully aware of the impact it has on others so would maybe question why your partner felt he had the right to remove anyone who might be part of your support group?
Him or your sister- if they are both as childish as each other I would go with neither but obviously I know that it's not as easy as that and I don't mean to sound harsh or dismissive at all.
I really do however think that maybe he should be reminded he is in no position to be making such demands and laying ultimatums on you and maybe in his recovery he should be focusing more on HIS RECOVERY than trying to tell you what to do about your sister.
Best of luck to you and sending strength to you in whatever you decide to do x
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freetosmile -
It seems to me that you and your husband have an entirely different perspective when it comes to your sister. Could it be that you might be a little defensive of your sister and not seeing all her flaws because you love her?
I think it is definitely acceptable to have a boundary that limits a person having contact with children. Whether this is justified in your sisters case, I cannot say. Maybe you can ask if you can go to your husbands counselor with him and discuss it more. Maybe the counselor can explain why he/she backs your husbands choice or you can tell your counselor your side of the story and give a more balanced perspective.
I can tell you that after many years of counseling, my counselor has often been the one guiding me to eliminate certain people from my life. If your husband is in counseling and came to this decision with a counselor's help - odds are the therapist was the one who reasoned with him and showed him this was the best choice. That's not to say that your husband is not using his own mind, just that a therapists job is ultimately to look out for the best interest of their client and their family - not so much your sister and her connection with the children.
I have never regretted following my counselor's advice. In fact, I wish I would have listened sooner! Sometimes it took years to finally see why a person was toxic for me.
I know that you love your sister. But please keep an open mind and listen to your husband. Remember that your partner and your children come first.
Best,
C
Edit: Just read some of the other responses. I assumed that your husband was sober and that your relationship was okay. It seems this is very far from the case... If he really is being manipulative like you imply and if you are in the process of divorce - it might be best to error in the side of caution and appease him until the divorce is final. If you bring your kids around your sister in the mean time, he can claim that you were putting them in danger and may use that to his benefit during the divorce. Just my two cents.
It seems to me that you and your husband have an entirely different perspective when it comes to your sister. Could it be that you might be a little defensive of your sister and not seeing all her flaws because you love her?
I think it is definitely acceptable to have a boundary that limits a person having contact with children. Whether this is justified in your sisters case, I cannot say. Maybe you can ask if you can go to your husbands counselor with him and discuss it more. Maybe the counselor can explain why he/she backs your husbands choice or you can tell your counselor your side of the story and give a more balanced perspective.
I can tell you that after many years of counseling, my counselor has often been the one guiding me to eliminate certain people from my life. If your husband is in counseling and came to this decision with a counselor's help - odds are the therapist was the one who reasoned with him and showed him this was the best choice. That's not to say that your husband is not using his own mind, just that a therapists job is ultimately to look out for the best interest of their client and their family - not so much your sister and her connection with the children.
I have never regretted following my counselor's advice. In fact, I wish I would have listened sooner! Sometimes it took years to finally see why a person was toxic for me.
I know that you love your sister. But please keep an open mind and listen to your husband. Remember that your partner and your children come first.
Best,
C
Edit: Just read some of the other responses. I assumed that your husband was sober and that your relationship was okay. It seems this is very far from the case... If he really is being manipulative like you imply and if you are in the process of divorce - it might be best to error in the side of caution and appease him until the divorce is final. If you bring your kids around your sister in the mean time, he can claim that you were putting them in danger and may use that to his benefit during the divorce. Just my two cents.
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Jane- thanks for that. I really do agree that it is about control...but now that he's using all these recovery terms to do it, I feel out of my realm because I don't fricking know what's "ok" and what's not with these boundaries.
I think he has just changed tactics, not behavior.
I think he has just changed tactics, not behavior.
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No words of wisdom but it just cracked me up that two years later he still has not gotten over your sister treating him the way he has been treating you on a regular basis.
He sure can dish it out but he can't take it.
it is also a bit sad that you jumped immediately to the defense of your wounded husband who had been verbally abused but that it took you so long to start standing up for yourself.
xoxoxo
He sure can dish it out but he can't take it.
There was an incident two years ago at my daughters birthday party. My sister drove down for it. She got plastered and called my AH a whole bunch of nasty nasty names and threatening to kick his ass and all that.
xoxoxo
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He can set whatever boundaries he wants. Is it normal to not allow people in your house that rant and rave at you. IMO yes. Is it normal to not allow ranting and raving people around your kids. IMO yes. One scene like that is about all it would take for me too.
You can 'respect' those boundaries - or not. I do agree it sounds like retaliation or a show of power/control especially when it comes to the kids.
Remember - you are free to make your own choices.
If you want to take the kids and go visit your sister - that is your choice. If he turns it into an ultimatum - well - you are preparing for a divorce so I wouldn't waste to much time worrying about it.
For better or worse we don't get to have a say in what the other parent does with the kids and who they have around them - and that includes him. King lay down the law can get over himself.
You can 'respect' those boundaries - or not. I do agree it sounds like retaliation or a show of power/control especially when it comes to the kids.
Remember - you are free to make your own choices.
If you want to take the kids and go visit your sister - that is your choice. If he turns it into an ultimatum - well - you are preparing for a divorce so I wouldn't waste to much time worrying about it.
For better or worse we don't get to have a say in what the other parent does with the kids and who they have around them - and that includes him. King lay down the law can get over himself.
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Originally Posted by Chantal88 
freetosmile -
It seems to me that you and your husband have an entirely different perspective when it comes to your sister. Could it be that you might be a little defensive of your sister and not seeing all her flaws because you love her?
I think it is definitely acceptable to have a boundary that limits a person having contact with children. Whether this is justified in your sisters case, I cannot say. Maybe you can ask if you can go to your husbands counselor with him and discuss it more. Maybe the counselor can explain why he/she backs your husbands choice or you can tell your counselor your side of the story and give a more balanced perspective.
I can tell you that after many years of counseling, my counselor has often been the one guiding me to eliminate certain people from my life. If your husband is in counseling and came to this decision with a counselor's help - odds are the therapist was the one who reasoned with him and showed him this was the best choice. That's not to say that your husband is not using his own mind, just that a therapists job is ultimately to look out for the best interest of their client and their family - not so much your sister and her connection with the children.
I have never regretted following my counselor's advice. In fact, I wish I would have listened sooner! Sometimes it took years to finally see why a person was toxic for me.
I know that you love your sister. But please keep an open mind and listen to your husband. Remember that your partner and your children come first.
Best,
C
It seems to me that you and your husband have an entirely different perspective when it comes to your sister. Could it be that you might be a little defensive of your sister and not seeing all her flaws because you love her?
I think it is definitely acceptable to have a boundary that limits a person having contact with children. Whether this is justified in your sisters case, I cannot say. Maybe you can ask if you can go to your husbands counselor with him and discuss it more. Maybe the counselor can explain why he/she backs your husbands choice or you can tell your counselor your side of the story and give a more balanced perspective.
I can tell you that after many years of counseling, my counselor has often been the one guiding me to eliminate certain people from my life. If your husband is in counseling and came to this decision with a counselor's help - odds are the therapist was the one who reasoned with him and showed him this was the best choice. That's not to say that your husband is not using his own mind, just that a therapists job is ultimately to look out for the best interest of their client and their family - not so much your sister and her connection with the children.
I have never regretted following my counselor's advice. In fact, I wish I would have listened sooner! Sometimes it took years to finally see why a person was toxic for me.
I know that you love your sister. But please keep an open mind and listen to your husband. Remember that your partner and your children come first.
Best,
C
I guess I'm just confused because as long as he is living here (which when he gets back from treatment, he will until I ask him to go) then that also means that my sister isn't "allowed" in MY house. I have problems with that.
I'm confused right now.
Thanks for this post. I do know that my husband and family *should* come first in a "normal" situation. But right now, we are not normal.
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I don't know, FTS. I have never heard reports of a rehab experience that seem so completely and entirely focused on everyone but the addict. His time away is supposed to be about figuring his sh!t out, not figuring out how to make everybody else do what he wants them to do so he can be better. It's also supposed to be time for you to each work your recoveries SEPARATELY. There is SO MUCH communication between you two that I don't know how either of you are supposed to have the time and space you each need to explore yourselves.
What he is calling a boundary, I would call a rule. Healthily married people develop their rules together, they don't dictate them to each other.
What he is calling a boundary, I would call a rule. Healthily married people develop their rules together, they don't dictate them to each other.
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty
I don't know, FTS. I have never heard reports of a rehab experience that seem so completely and entirely focused on everyone but the addict. His time away is supposed to be about figuring his sh!t out, not figuring out how to make everybody else do what he wants them to do so he can be better. It's also supposed to be time for you to each work your recoveries SEPARATELY. There is SO MUCH communication between you two that I don't know how either of you are supposed to have the time and space you each need to explore yourselves.
What he is calling a boundary, I would call a rule. Healthily married people develop their rules together, they don't dictate them to each other.
What he is calling a boundary, I would call a rule. Healthily married people develop their rules together, they don't dictate them to each other.
I guess that was my only question. Is this a legit boundary or just another tactic.
I'm not talking to him hardly at all right now, and for his controlling ass, that MIGHT be why he is taking these drastic measures....
Thanks for tolerating my BS again.
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FTS, Didn't you refer to your sister as your best friend, that also when you were growing up that she was more of a mother to you then your mother was.
I don't know what happened 2 years, yes, you H is an alcoholic, he is also abusive. Doesn't your sister work with things like this? I remember she helped you out on the way back from driving back home after you dropped him off at rehab.
It just seems like there are so many demands being made on you. That really wasn't a boundary, that was him telling you that he doesn't want you to be around anyone who may call him on his chit. It's him trying to isolate you.
You and your sister went through so much while you were growing up. I'm sure you told your AH all of that.
From what you told me about your sister, I do not see her as the demon from hell. She had a horrible childhood, just like you did. You are stronger and you handled it differently, but I also see that your sister did handle things in her own way also, and that she is very strong. Where did you say that she worked?? I think that is her way of dealing with things.
You have asked her not to get like that at your house again, she respected that.
So IMHO, this is all manipulation to continue to isolate you.
(((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))
amy
I don't know what happened 2 years, yes, you H is an alcoholic, he is also abusive. Doesn't your sister work with things like this? I remember she helped you out on the way back from driving back home after you dropped him off at rehab.
It just seems like there are so many demands being made on you. That really wasn't a boundary, that was him telling you that he doesn't want you to be around anyone who may call him on his chit. It's him trying to isolate you.
You and your sister went through so much while you were growing up. I'm sure you told your AH all of that.
From what you told me about your sister, I do not see her as the demon from hell. She had a horrible childhood, just like you did. You are stronger and you handled it differently, but I also see that your sister did handle things in her own way also, and that she is very strong. Where did you say that she worked?? I think that is her way of dealing with things.
You have asked her not to get like that at your house again, she respected that.
So IMHO, this is all manipulation to continue to isolate you.
(((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))
amy
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Originally Posted by freetosmile
I agree. I have stopped answering his phone calls, except the evening phone call. I just can't wrap my brain around this!? I have told him that he needs to focus on HIM and I need to focus on ME. I have never done this crap before, so I have NO idea what is "normal" rehab behavior and what is not. I can honestly lay down the dumb card here...except for the controlling behavior. I can sniff that from a mile away. But I just didn't know because of recovery terms he is using now to control.
I guess that was my only question. Is this a legit boundary or just another tactic.
I'm not talking to him hardly at all right now, and for his controlling ass, that MIGHT be why he is taking these drastic measures....
Thanks for tolerating my BS again.
I guess that was my only question. Is this a legit boundary or just another tactic.
I'm not talking to him hardly at all right now, and for his controlling ass, that MIGHT be why he is taking these drastic measures....
Thanks for tolerating my BS again.
I should have summarized that I think you're doing remarkably well under impossibly challenging circumstances.
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Originally Posted by amy55
FTS, Didn't you refer to your sister as your best friend, that also when you were growing up that she was more of a mother to you then your mother was.
I don't know what happened 2 years, yes, you H is an alcoholic, he is also abusive. Doesn't your sister work with things like this? I remember she helped you out on the way back from driving back home after you dropped him off at rehab.
It just seems like there are so many demands being made on you. That really wasn't a boundary, that was him telling you that he doesn't want you to be around anyone who may call him on his chit. It's him trying to isolate you.
You and your sister went through so much while you were growing up. I'm sure you told your AH all of that.
From what you told me about your sister, I do not see her as the demon from hell. She had a horrible childhood, just like you did. You are stronger and you handled it differently, but I also see that your sister did handle things in her own way also, and that she is very strong. Where did you say that she worked?? I think that is her way of dealing with things.
You have asked her not to get like that at your house again, she respected that.
So IMHO, this is all manipulation to continue to isolate you.
(((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))
amy
I don't know what happened 2 years, yes, you H is an alcoholic, he is also abusive. Doesn't your sister work with things like this? I remember she helped you out on the way back from driving back home after you dropped him off at rehab.
It just seems like there are so many demands being made on you. That really wasn't a boundary, that was him telling you that he doesn't want you to be around anyone who may call him on his chit. It's him trying to isolate you.
You and your sister went through so much while you were growing up. I'm sure you told your AH all of that.
From what you told me about your sister, I do not see her as the demon from hell. She had a horrible childhood, just like you did. You are stronger and you handled it differently, but I also see that your sister did handle things in her own way also, and that she is very strong. Where did you say that she worked?? I think that is her way of dealing with things.
You have asked her not to get like that at your house again, she respected that.
So IMHO, this is all manipulation to continue to isolate you.
(((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))
amy
Yeah my sister is my best and only friend. Went through a lot of crap together. And yeah, AH knows all about it.
So I can only be controlled if I allow it.
I am getting a real solid picture that his rehab is NOT normal. He is calling too much, I am answering too much, and we are engaging too much.
This just sounds more and more like it's not the way it's supposed to be when they are in rehab.
So please, someone tell me what should I do? Stop answering ALL the calls? Tell him to quit calling? Remind him to focus on HIM? Hell, I don't know. I just want some ******* peace. I really need help on this one. The contact is getting out of control. I need help refocusing
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty
None of the above is BS to me. It's the rehab's BS I can't seem to tolerate!
I should have summarized that I think you're doing remarkably well under impossibly challenging circumstances.
I should have summarized that I think you're doing remarkably well under impossibly challenging circumstances.
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